The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:51 am

AZDehlin wrote:
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:
AZDehlin wrote: Raven looks red grey to me... Has she ever looked wolf grey? My Zephyr and Gaby's Loki are the most wolf grey tams I have seen yet. Haven't seen a black grey but I must say I am not a fan. If I want a black dog that looks wolfy I will go with ANCD.
Too bad many of the ANCD don't carry the temperament that you're looking for either. Shyness in the breed still needs work.
Not all of her lines produce shyness Lucas :roll:
Didn't she say most of his litter mates are not shy? I forget without looking :D
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One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
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The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Hawthorne » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:04 pm

AZDehlin wrote:
Hawthorne wrote:
Tatzel wrote:A bit off-topic, sometimes I still get confused what is considered red grey and what is considered wolf grey.
For example, what are the colors of the Tams in your picture? I'm guessing wolf grey, but they have that red undercoat on their ears and neck (which I totally love btw) - which other supposely wolf grey Tams (like Summer) completely lack!
Raven is considered a red grey. But that's not how her registration papers came back. Freyja is a wolf grey on paper too. I think my idea of a red grey is skewed from meeting Blaze. I've always thought that all red grey s looked like him.

And as for black grey. I should admit I've never seen one in person.

Raven looks red grey to me... Has she ever looked wolf grey? My Zephyr and Gaby's Loki are the most wolf grey tams I have seen yet. Haven't seen a black grey but I must say I am not a fan. If I want a black dog that looks wolfy I will go with ANCD.
No, Raven never looked wolf grey. I submitted the litter registration paperwork with two dogs as red grey (Raven being one of them), and the rest as wolf grey and they all came back as 'wolf grey' on their paperwork. I was disappointed at the apparent lack of attention to detail--but I don't know that it really affects anything.

I think Roma (Hawthorne Little America) is a very wolf grey dog too--probably close to Zephyr's coloration.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:04 pm

I believe most dogs registered by the Blues (weather it was their own dogs or other dogs) are registered as wolf grey..

and a lot of them are probably red grey..
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Tiantai » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:13 pm

I love Raven, she is definitely NOT wolf grey. Hurrah for the motherside :D
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by AZDehlin » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:45 pm

Hawthorne wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:
Hawthorne wrote: Raven is considered a red grey. But that's not how her registration papers came back. Freyja is a wolf grey on paper too. I think my idea of a red grey is skewed from meeting Blaze. I've always thought that all red grey s looked like him.

And as for black grey. I should admit I've never seen one in person.

Raven looks red grey to me... Has she ever looked wolf grey? My Zephyr and Gaby's Loki are the most wolf grey tams I have seen yet. Haven't seen a black grey but I must say I am not a fan. If I want a black dog that looks wolfy I will go with ANCD.
No, Raven never looked wolf grey. I submitted the litter registration paperwork with two dogs as red grey (Raven being one of them), and the rest as wolf grey and they all came back as 'wolf grey' on their paperwork. I was disappointed at the apparent lack of attention to detail--but I don't know that it really affects anything.

I think Roma (Hawthorne Little America) is a very wolf grey dog too--probably close to Zephyr's coloration.
Thats what I thought ;) . Wish Roma would of come to the show, don't they live relatively close to Madison?

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:I love Raven, she is definitely NOT wolf grey. Hurrah for the motherside :D
I would classify both Ravens parents as red grey's even though both on paper are wolf grey. They are both really red (in person).

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Hawthorne » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:23 pm

Katelyn--
Yes, Roma lives in Chicago. Her and her dad were supposed to come, but his family wisked him away on vacation at the last minute. He was so disappointed.
We were going to stop to visit on our way back through that Monday, but he was called into work.
I think if the show is in Madison again next year, Roma will be there. She was such an incredibly sweet puppy! The little ones always are!
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bark as if no one can hear you
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Mario312 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:33 pm

I was really bummed I couldn't go to the show. Bad timing.. I won't miss it next year. As for the black-grey tamaskan, I like it. From the few pictures I've seen of that coat, I liked some more than others. It seems like it's hard to achieve the "wolfy" looking coat without getting it to look too much like a german shepherd. Roma's coat made me very biased to the wolf grey look though. It's really interesting seeing the grey, black, and little bit of red all come together with her white undercoat to create this ferrel look about her. I'm interested to see what happens down the road in the progression of the black-grey coat.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Tiantai » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:43 pm

I wonder if there are any jet black Malamutes. They would come in handy for expanding the black Tamaskan and even offer bone and size to the breed IF they exist. As far as I looked back on some pictures of several Alaskan dogs in the past, the only pure jet black I've seen are the mutts and Balto the Siberian Husky but I have never seen any completely black Malamutes.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Kootenaywolf » Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:26 am

TerriHolt wrote:
Didn't she say most of his litter mates are not shy? I forget without looking :D
Yes, all of Yarrow's siblings (6 of them) from Cola/Cinnabar are not shy, he was the only timid one from that litter. I think Pepsi's puppies are more often shy.

My thoughts on the black grey - I've always thought that the tan markings very much detracted from the wolfy look. I've heard it said that solid black will look too much like a GSD, but personally I think tan markings look even more like a GSD/mix. I think the ANCD is a good example that solid black can look quite wolfy (though most of them have a least a little bit of phasing/lighter undercoat).

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ohkami » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:07 pm

Off topic, a bit, and not sure if anyone said this or not due to 13 passes in a cell phone gets tiring... lol But really, there are no black wolves. Not 100% pure. A black wolf is a mutation from the mating with domestic dogs. Also, the more higher meat a wolf eats, the darker the coat color on the top. Hints why artic wolves have that gray/black on their backs. Also, I have seen some wolves with "dingy" gray-black fur. Not just from age.
However, I would still love to see a black or even black-blue Tamaskan. In the Wolfdog world, the blue coat color came from using black GSD with black or gray wolves and wolfdogs. ;) They are really pretty!
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Tiantai » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:27 am

Well something tells me that this black-grey coat might not last after 10 more generations in the breed. I don't know why but it's just my gut feeling thinking about this.
Ohkami wrote:Off topic, a bit, and not sure if anyone said this or not due to 13 passes in a cell phone gets tiring... lol But really, there are no black wolves. Not 100% pure. A black wolf is a mutation from the mating with domestic dogs. Also, the more higher meat a wolf eats, the darker the coat color on the top. Hints why artic wolves have that gray/black on their backs. Also, I have seen some wolves with "dingy" gray-black fur. Not just from age.
However, I would still love to see a black or even black-blue Tamaskan. In the Wolfdog world, the blue coat color came from using black GSD with black or gray wolves and wolfdogs. ;) They are really pretty!

(off topic)
Whether the black colour in wolves was inherited from domestic dogs or not in still on debate since no one knows for sure. I won't rule out the possibility but I personally think that if any domestic dog were crossed ages ago with the American Grey wolves thousands of years ago then the dog gene would have been erased after so many generations as with the supposes black colour unless there were frequent interbreedings with feral dogs much like how there was theoretically so much interbreeding between the Grey wolves and the (now extinct) Pre-Columbian coyotes 600 - 900 years ago. This of course may explain why the "Eastern wolves" are known to test positive for coyote genes even on populations that don't often encounter coyotes. They are now considered coywolves here in Canada as of 2011, in addition the giant Eastern coyotes are also now recognized as coywolves and are considered in Ontario to be the same animals as the Eastern wolves with the difference being the former has more coyote much like the Red wolves while the latter has more Grey wolf. But as for the black phase in Grey wolves, I do think that it may just be an uncommon gene altogether and probably not from domestic dogs
(end off topic)
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Tatzel » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:02 pm

Tiantai wrote:I won't rule out the possibility but I personally think that if any domestic dog were crossed ages ago with the American Grey wolves thousands of years ago then the dog gene would have been erased after so many generations as with the supposes black colour unless there were frequent interbreedings with feral dogs [...]
As far as I know it's not uncommon that a feral dog impregnates a wolf female; usually it occours when the female gets into heat, it takes a long time of a bitch in heat among wolves before the males actually start to get interessted into her, opposed to dogs who instantly get attracted by a female and heat and thus, will mate.

Although wolfdogs have a smaller chance to survive in the wild, since the pregnancy supposely is shorter when mated to a dog, which causes the puppiesn to get born in winter instead of in spring.

At least this is how I remember reading it.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ohkami » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:33 am

I don't think the time of gestation would. Hangs if mated with a dog. (If I am wrong, ops. That would be interesting to read!) I know it is really commen for dogs and coyotes to breed, and a female wolf will lure a male dog to the pack to kill it and eat it when starving... And mating has been known to happen.
The only reason I question if the time of gestation is shorten is due to wolfdogs of high content only go into heat once a year, and pups are born around April - same as pure wolves.....
I know it is wiki, but it has ref to the artical on the lack gene in wolves: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_wolf#section_2
Better info and more to back it up than the though of red wolves being a cross of coyote and wolf. ;P

ANYWAY, I don't know. I think if done right, the black coloring would go far. Even a blue-black. I know if it was done really well, I would want one. Same as if a white coloring was done! :) As long as it didn't have a "side effect" like in white German shepards or boxers - higher risk of cancer.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:09 pm

Ohkami wrote:ANYWAY, I don't know. I think if done right, the black coloring would go far. Even a blue-black. I know if it was done really well, I would want one. Same as if a white coloring was done!
I wold like to own one of every color too :lol:
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There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Tiantai » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:38 am

Ohkami wrote:I don't think the time of gestation would. Hangs if mated with a dog. (If I am wrong, ops. That would be interesting to read!) I know it is really commen for dogs and coyotes to breed, and a female wolf will lure a male dog to the pack to kill it and eat it when starving... And mating has been known to happen.
(off topic)
Usually females who do that are the ones who have already mated and they either do it because the pack is starving (a good reason to cannibal on a dog if you're a desperate wild animal) or just to rid the "strange wolf" from their area. While we humans see a difference between the different breeds of dogs, wild wolves in my opinion don't give a darn, if it's a canine, it's trespassing on their turf and could lead to a potential threat thus it must be exterminated. The latter (killing it off without eating it) is more likely though since most wolves for some reason usually don't cannibal on the rival wolves, dogs, and coyotes that they kill unless they were seriously hungry and their natural prey has run extremely low and are failing to keep up with the herd. I heard that some males are also known to do that as well (luring female dogs over) and then charging the pack up to kill her just as they're rumoured to do this on coyotes and many other canines like jackals depending on the region of the world. But then on the other hand we do have those rare cases where male dogs or single coyotes somehow managed to win the hearts of a single Grey she-wolf though it's usually the reverse for coyotes (male Grey wolves attracting female coyotes) resulting with coywolf populations. Happened here in Eastern Canada a lot in the past and probably why we have these Eastern wolves and Eastern coyotes. I don't think there are anymore true Grey wolves in Quebec or much of Ontario. And these populations are slowly growing in Manitoba as well (Eastern coyotes backcrossing with true Grey Wolves thus expanding more Eastern wolf populations). While we still have many in the US wishing to keep the Red wolves and Eastern wolves a distinct species of wolf (and there are distinct species in the Far East), I lean on what I believe that these two are coywolves descended from Grey wolves and coyote hybrids. Rest assure, Canada is still protecting these Eastern wolves despite them finally recognized as coywolves here ironically because they being coywolves have made them a unique animal that Ontario doesn't want to lose. Aside from those captive ones purposely crossbred for research, these two animals do hybridize in central Canada though with so many Grey wolves in the western region of the continent at the moment they rarely need to turn on a coyote but I bet if the Grey wolves start to drop like they did here in the Eastern regions hundreds of years ago then some of them will start turning to coyotes for mates just like some in the south whose DNA survived in the Red wolves allegedly due to frequent backcrossing with coyotes as oppose to the Eastern wolves who mostly backcrossed with the Grey wolves.
(end off topic)
Ohkami wrote: ANYWAY, I don't know. I think if done right, the black coloring would go far. Even a blue-black. I know if it was done really well, I would want one. Same as if a white coloring was done! :) As long as it didn't have a "side effect" like in white German shepards or boxers - higher risk of cancer.
Well, like I said, we don't really know for sure if the black colour is actually from a dog. It could be, or it could just be a rare gene in the wolf. As for the cancer risk, I don't know for sure but I doubt careful selection even for the colour would lead to a high cancer risk. Although I've been told before about the merle gene in some doberman coming with some nasty side effects so I won't rule out that possibility.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:56 am

Merle doberman? Are you sure you remember that one right?
Dobers come in black and liver here in Europe, while the US also have the colors; blue, lilac and "white".. I have never seen or heard about merle dobers before?
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Tiantai » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:12 am

Oops, I meant dachshunds, not doberman, my bad :oops:
Why the world did I even stay up late?
Gaby wrote: OT, the health issues in dachshunds have nothing to do with piebald gene. ;) But it has to do with the merle gene, that dachshunds can carry too. And when a dog is double merle, the chances are higher that they are piebald ánd have those health risks like deafness (not in adolescent but they are born with it) and eye problems. Deafness and eye problems occur with a lack of pigment (colour) and that occurs with double merle. The thing is that with dogs who are sable coloured, you can't see if they are merle or not, because the merle markings usually fade when they get older. Especially with dogs with wired or long hair it is difficult to see if they are merle. Therefore, the chance of breeding (unknowingly) merle x merle is higher, and that causes piebalds with the double merle gene. Fortunately, there are DNA tests available to see if a dog is merle or not. ;) Long story, but it means also that the Tamaskan with the piebald gene has nothing to worry about those health risks, because there are no merle Tamaskan, so definately no double merle Tamaskan. ;)

Edit, at this picture you can see the parents of a double merle dachshund, the puppy with the white. You can see the black and tan one (the mother) shows a merle pattern and after the puppies have been born, it seemed that the red dachshund (the father) was also merle. But you can't see it.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:12 pm

What do you think... does "Arya" (Sylvaen Four-Leaf Clover) count as a Black Grey? or is it still too early to tell? (she is now 6 weeks old)

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I guess we will find out soon enough as she will be DNA tested (via MyDogDNA Pass) in the next few days, as with the Pokemon pups... and my adult Tamaskans as well. Yes, I ordered 12 test kits this past weekend ( I know, I'm crazy :P ) so they should arrive soon. The test package includes coat color genetics. ;)

Also, for those who are interested:
Molecular and Evolutionary History of Melanism in North American Gray Wolves

Morphological diversity within closely related species is an essential aspect of evolution and adaptation. Mutations in the Melanocortin 1 receptor (Mc1r) gene contribute to pigmentary diversity in natural populations of fish, birds, and many mammals. However, melanism in the gray wolf, Canis lupus, is caused by a different melanocortin pathway component, the K locus, that encodes a beta-defensin protein that acts as an alternative ligand for Mc1r. We show that the melanistic K locus mutation in North American wolves derives from past hybridization with domestic dogs, has risen to high frequency in forested habitats, and exhibits a molecular signature of positive selection. The same mutation also causes melanism in the coyote, Canis latrans, and in Italian gray wolves, and hence our results demonstrate how traits selected in domesticated species can influence the morphological diversity of their wild relatives.

The correspondence between coat color and habitat is often attributed to natural selection, but rarely is supporting evidence provided at the molecular level. In North American gray wolves, coat color frequencies differ between wolves of forested and open habitats throughout western North America (1), including Denali National Park (2) and the Kenai Peninsula in Alaska (3), and much of the Canadian Arctic (4, 5). These differences are especially dramatic between wolves of the high tundra that are migratory and follow barren-ground caribou to their breeding areas, and wolves that are year-round residents in the neighboring boreal forest and hunt nonmigratory prey. Dark-colored wolves are extremely rare in the tundra but increase in frequency along a southwest cline toward forested areas (Fig. 1A). The potential selective value of dark versus light coat color has been suggested to include concealment during predation and/or indirect effects due to pleiotropy, but remains unresolved because the underlying gene(s) have not been identified (5–7).

Fig. 1.
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Fig. 1.
Distribution of melanism and K locus genotypes in North American gray wolves. (A) Location and coat color phenotype of Canadian samples used here and as described (4). (B) Age-related graying and the associated difficulty of inferring genotype from phenotype in gray animals. Each pair of photos shows the same individual at different ages (10 months and 10 years) and documents an increasingly gray appearance at 10 years, reflecting the dilution of eumelanin in the KB/ky individual (left pair of images) and dilution of both eumelanin and pheomelanin in the ky/ky individual (right pair of images). [Images courtesy of Monty Sloan, Wolf Park, Battle Ground, Indiana] (C) Co-segregation of KB and black coat color in a three-generation pedigree from the Leopold pack in Yellowstone National Park (17). ΔG indicates the dominant K B allele, whereas + indicates the wild-type allele, ky.

In many vertebrates, natural pigmentary variation is controlled by the agouti–melanocortin 1 receptor (Mc1r) pathway, a ligand receptor pair that modulates the amount and type of pigment—red/yellow pheomelanin or brown/black eumelanin—produced by melanocytes in skin, hair, or feathers. Gain-of-function Mc1r mutations are well-recognized causes of melanism in many domestic and laboratory animal species (8, 9), as well as in several natural populations of birds (10), rodents (11, 12), and canids (13). Recently, we found that pigment type-switching in domestic dogs involves an additional component of the melanocortin pathway, the K locus, which encodes a beta-defensin protein, CBD103 (14, 15).

Coat color in Canadian wolves is genetically complex, with phenotypes ranging from white to gray to black, and is also confounded by an independent effect of graying with age (Fig. 1B). However, in Yellowstone National Park, where a small number of founder animals from Canada were recently reintroduced (16, 17), gray and black coat colors segregate as a Mendelian trait. We surveyed molecular variation in Agouti, Mc1r, and CBD103 in wolves from North America and identified several Mc1r and Agouti polymorphisms. However, none of these were predicted to affect gene function and did not associate with black coat color (table S1). In contrast, in a 14-member, three-generation kindred from Yellowstone, we observed complete co-segregation between black coat color and markers at the K locus [logarithm of the odds ratio for linkage (lod) score = 4.21 at the maximum likelihood estimate of recombination fraction (θ) = 0, Fig. 1C], which is unlinked and lies on a different chromosome from Agouti and Mc1r.

In dogs, the ancestral CBD103 allele (k y) confers normal Agouti and Mc1r gene action, whereas a 3–base pair (bp) deletion (CBD103ΔG23 or KB) suppresses Agouti gene action, leading to dominant inheritance of a black coat (14, 15). We observed the same 3-bp deletion in 102 out of 104 black-colored wolves from Yellowstone and 9 out of 9 from the Canadian Arctic. Conversely, CBD103ΔG23 was absent from 120 of 120 gray-colored wolves from Yellowstone and from 22 of 22 white-colored wolves from the Canadian Arctic (Table 1). We also found CBD103ΔG23 in 6 of 10 gray-colored wolves from the Canadian Arctic, suggesting that gray coat color can result either from the absence of CBD103ΔG23 and a modified agouti phenotype (in which individual hairs contain both cream-colored pheomelanin and dark eumelanin) or from secondary factors such as age that dilute the pigmentation of hairs that contain only eumelanin. [Additional genealogy studies of the Yellowstone population (17) together with the paucity of Mc1r variation in wolves (table S1) suggest that black coat color reported for the two ky/ky Yellowstone wolves is likely to reflect phenotypic ambiguity or misclassification at the time of sampling.] Allele frequencies for CBD103ΔG23 in tundra and forest wolves overall were estimated at 0.02 and 0.19, corresponding to phenotype frequencies of 2 to 33% and 33 to 64% for dark wolves in tundra and forest populations, respectively (Fig. 1A) (4).

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Table 1.
Distribution of CBD103 alleles in wolves and coyotes. N/A, not applicable.

To investigate the evolutionary history of the melanistic K allele, we sequenced eight single-copy noncoding segments distributed across an ∼150-kb region centered on CBD103 in 32 Arctic and 15 unrelated Yellowstone wolves, as well as in 12 domestic dogs: 6 ky/ky (akita, basenji, boxer, bulldog, Doberman pinscher, and great dane) and 6 KB/KB (curly-coated retriever, Dalmatian, great dane, Labrador retriever, poodle, and Portuguese water dog). We identified 52 biallelic polymorphisms across all canids (36 in wolves) and estimated haplotype structure (tables S3 and S4, Fig. 2B, and fig. S2). The rate of polymorphism among all wolf amplicons was one single-nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) per 510 bp (Watterson's estimator, θW = 1.96 × 10–3), which is similar to genome-wide measurements of polymorphism between the boxer and the gray wolf (1 out of 580 bp) and the coyote (1 out of 420 bp) (18). However, partitioning our data according to K locus genotype and proximity to CBD103 revealed little or no polymorphism among KB-bearing chromosomes close to CBD103, rising to levels at or above those observed in ky-bearing chromosomes in the 75 kb spanning either side of the locus (Fig. 2A). This pattern, and the analogous one for nucleotide diversity (π, fig. S1), is also reflected in a significant difference in haplotype diversity between KB (8 unique of 22 total) and ky (59 unique of 72 total) chromosomes (χ2 = 14.2, P < 0.001). Together with the correlations between coat color and habitat (2–5), the combination of low diversity and high frequency suggests that KB has been under positive selection in North American forest wolves.

Fig. 2.
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Fig. 2.
Polymorphism and haplotype structure of the K locus in North American gray wolves [(A) to (E), 1 KB/KB, 20 KB/ky, and 26 ky/ky]and domestic dogs [(F), 6 KB/KB and 6 ky/ky]. (A) Polymorphism (θW, ±SD) as a function of distance from CBD103. (B) Wolf haplotype structure was inferred on the basis of 36 SNPs; each row represents a KB-or ky-bearing chromosome; blue and yellow squares represent the major and minor alleles, respectively; and the gray squares represent missing data. Red and black arrows indicate examples of haplotypes likely to represent historical recombination between KB-and ky-bearing chromosomes at the 5′ and 3′ ends of the locus, respectively. (C) Pairwise LD values (expressed as D') for all wolf chromosomes; the red outline indicates a core region (as in Fig. 3) unlikely to have undergone historical recombination. (D) Haplotype bifurcation diagrams for KB-or ky-bearing chromosomes, in which the central dark blue dot represents CBD103, branches represent haplotype divergence, and the thickness of the lines is proportional to the number of chromosomes. (E and F) EHH for KB-or ky-bearing chromosomes in wolves (E) and dogs (F) as a function of distance from CBD103ΔG23.

Overall, the patterns of linkage disequilibrium (LD) across 150 kb surrounding the K locus were similar to comparisons between different breeds of domestic dogs (18), with relatively small haplotype blocks, including an ∼4-kb CBD103 core region within which there is no evidence for historical recombination (Fig. 2C). However, different evolutionary histories for the Arctic wolf KB and ky alleles were apparent when the SNP patterns (Fig. 2B) were depicted as haplotype bifurcation diagrams (Fig. 2D), which highlight a central region of ∼60 kb devoid of polymorphism among wolf KB haplotypes. This characteristic, and the corresponding difference between KB and ky chromosomes, were represented quantitatively by the extended haplotype homozygosity (EHH) statistic (19), which is the empirical probability that two chromosomes chosen at random remain identical at progressively increasing distances from CBD103. As depicted in Fig. 2, E and F, the distribution of EHH was considerably broader for KB as compared to k y chromosomes in wolves, whereas the distributions were nearly identical for KB as compared to ky chromosomes in dogs. Together with additional analyses of genome-wide SNP data [supporting online material (SOM) text and fig. S3], these observations suggest that KB has risen to high frequency by a selective sweep.

As in black dogs and melanistic wolves, CBD103ΔG23 was associated with coat color in 67 coyotes (6 black and 61 gray, Table 1 and table S2). These findings suggest three possible evolutionary histories. First, the 3-bp deletion may be relatively old, having occurred in a canid ancestor more than 1 million years ago before the divergence of coyotes from wolves. Second, the 3-bp deletion may have occurred more recently in one of the species, followed by introgression into the others. Finally, the 3-bp deletion may represent a mutational hotspot, having recurred independently in coyotes, wolves, and dogs. To distinguish among these possibilities, we ascertained and compared coyote haplotypes (6 KB and 18 ky) with those from the North American wolf and dog.

The pattern of haplotype diversity for all three canids was similar to that observed in wolves alone and showed significantly less diversity among KB (15 unique of 40 total) relative to ky (66 unique of 102 total) chromosomes (χ2 = 9.7, P = 0.003). Of the 15 unique KB haplotypes, 1 haplotype was observed in three coyotes and six dogs, and a second haplotype was observed in two coyotes and 12 wolves (Fig. 3A). However, none of the 66 unique ky haplotypes were observed in more than one species (fig. S2).

Fig. 3.
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Fig. 3.
Evolutionary relationships and history of the K locus in canids. (A) KB haplotype structure in wolflike canids based on genotypes defined by 52 SNPs. Each row represents a KB-bearing haplotype found in coyotes (C), dogs (D), or wolves (W) listed with their respective frequencies on the right and colored as in Fig. 2B. (B) Inferred genealogical relationships of the core region (Fig. 2C) haplotypes (with bootstrap values from 500 replicates shown next to branches). Each branch represents 1 of 18 different haplotypes, with the number of chromosomes for each haplotype indicated underneath according to species. (C) TMRCA estimates for indicated chromosome subsets calculated according to a molecular clock (22) and expressed as a fraction of the divergence time for all wolflike canids. Individual points represent sets of chromosome segments whose relative TMRCA increases as a function of distance from CBD103, presumably due to ancient hybridization and recombination. (D) Timeline scenario for K locus evolution in dogs and wolves, in which ancestral ky chromosomes are indicated in orange, derivative KB chromosomes in gray, and recombinant chromosomes as an orange-gray checkered pattern. The ky-to-KB mutation may have overlapped or even predated domestication, but the introgression of KB into North American gray wolves is more recent.

Reconstruction of a phylogenetic network for the entire 150-kb region is complicated by historical recombination between extant KB and ky chromosomes (arrows in Fig. 2B) and the lack of a suitable approach for inferring accurate gene genealogies in the presence of recombination (20). However, by focusing on the 4-kb CBD103 core region (Fig. 2C), a simple neighbor-joining tree was constructed for 18 core region haplotypes representing 142 (94 wolf, 24 dog, and 24 coyote) chromosomes (Fig. 3B). In this tree, all the KB chromosomes define a 2-haplotype cluster, whereas the remaining 16 haplotypes (which represent all the ky chromosomes) are more dispersed. Furthermore, many of the ky chromosomes cluster by species (9 out of 12 of the dogs and 44 out of 72 of the wolves), unlike the KB chromosomes. This contrasting phylogenetic pattern suggests that the KB mutation occurred in a single species and was later distributed among dogs, wolves, and coyotes by interspecific hybridization. [The 24 ky haplotypes from coyotes are no closer to each other than to ky haplotypes from wolves or dogs (Fig. 3B), which is consistent with their history of hybridization with other canids (21)].

To gain additional insight into how K locus variation in dogs and wolves arose, we estimated coalescent time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) as a function of cumulative distance from CBD103 for ky and KB chromosomes from wolves, dogs, and both groups together. We applied a molecular clock approach to sequencing data from individual amplicons across the entire 150-kb region (Fig. 2), which assumes that mutations occur at the same constant rate at all sites in wolves and dogs and integrates the effects of both recombination and demography (22). Close to CBD103, TMRCA estimates were near zero for all KB subsets (Fig. 3C) because there is little or no polymorphism in this region (Fig. 3A). However, at greater distances from CBD103 (10 to 50 kb), estimates for dog chromosomes are similar to those of dog and wolf chromosomes considered together, regardless of genotype. This suggests that KB in dogs is sufficiently old to have undergone extensive recombination with ky chromosomes, and that the recombination history includes hybridization between dogs and wolves. However, in the same 10- to 50-kb range, TMRCA estimates for wolf KB chromosomes were considerably less than those from dog KB chromosomes (or from dog and wolf KB chromosomes considered together), suggesting that KB was introduced into North American wolves from dogs, not vice versa.

Introgression of KB from dogs into North American wolves is also supported by geographical and ecological considerations. KB is widely distributed among domestic dogs, including ancient breeds originating in Asia and Africa. In wolves, however, melanism has been reported outside North America only in Italy, where it is associated with molecular and/or morphologic evidence of recent hybridization with free-ranging dogs (23). Indeed, we also examined 22 samples from the Italian Apennines and observed KB in six of seven black “wolves” (including one previously classified to be a dog-wolf hybrid) but 0 of 15 gray wolves. In contrast, genome-wide SNP analysis of 10 KB/ky and 10 ky/ky North American wolves showed no evidence for recent dog-wolf hybridization (SOM text and fig. S3B).

The dog was domesticated between 15,000 and 40,000 years ago in East Asia from gray wolves (24, 25), and we estimate that KB is at least 46,886 years old (95% confidence limit: 12,779 to 121,182 years); therefore, we cannot distinguish whether KB arose before or after domestication. However, if KB arose in Old World wolves before domestication, our data indicate that it must have been lost from the gene pool and reacquired in North America, perhaps from Native American dogs that accompanied humans across the Bering Strait 12,000 to 14,000 years ago (26) (Fig. 3D).

The wolf in the United States faces grave threats, in some cases by eradication, and in others by hybridization, such as in the Great Lakes region (27). However, apparent selection for the KB locus in North American gray wolves shows how genetic diversity—preserved by humans in domestic dogs—may flourish in wild wolf populations. As the available tundra habitat declines because of development and/or global warming, the frequency of the KB mutation may increase further in northern latitudes. Thus, the introduction of genetic diversity into a natural population from a mutation originally selected in domesticated animals may, ironically, provide a mechanism for that population to adapt to a changing environment. Interspecific hybridization has been widely observed between other domesticated species of animals and plants (28–30). Our results imply that variants that appear under domestication can be viable in the wild and enrich the genetic legacy of natural populations.

SOURCE: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/323/5919/1339.full
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Hawthorne » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:31 pm

Cute photo! I don't know--the more experience I get with this breed the more I think I don't know! Ha! Our two litters were a mystery as far as coloration goes. They change so much even into adolescence. I could have sworn Max would have been a wolf gray but he has the same coloration as Freyja now. And Raven--when she was born--good grief I felt like I knew nothing at all. She was just about solid black with little white tipped toes. The white disappeared pretty quickly and as you all know she is a very dark Red gray like her grandfather.

But as far as melanism--we were told in Mammalogy class that any animal can be melanistic. Period. So--who knows. There are black coyotes here in Pennsylvania. Early on, the literature suggested that the coyotes with black coats were the ones that had bred with Red wolves. And now that someone has actually sampled a large number of coyotes in Pennsylvania for DNA, they found there are wolf genes in 100% of the samples. Very cool! But at the same time sad for the Eastern / Red / Algonquin wolf populations. There's really nothing that can be done to prevent the inbreeding. Controlling coyotes is like trying to hold water in your hands.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Vajente » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:32 pm

I think the blackgreys in the breed right now are just very dark wolfgreys, there is probably a gene causing it but it is most likely a unknown gene which can't be tested (yet).

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Katlin » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:46 am

12 kits?! Wow I wish I could afford one hahaha!

I'm interested to see what the findings are.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:16 pm

I doubt very much that this dog is a black grey..
Just as I have my doubts that Nanuq and Akim are black greys..

I believe that if they are born "brown-ish" they can not be black greys even if they look a bit like that when adult..
Just look at normal recessive (or dominant) black dogs.. they are all born black, even if they turn lighter when they get old..
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by rorlando21 » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:45 am

Which breeders are offering the black grey tamaskans with the yellow eyes. I want one so bad.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Booma » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:57 am

Only one breeder is attempting to breed for colour, and they are no longer registered breeders and many class them as a puppy mill.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Tiantai » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:50 pm

Booma wrote:Only one breeder is attempting to breed for colour, and they are no longer registered breeders and many class them as a puppy mill.
I will have to agree with Kylie on this. I do not recommend that breeder either.
rorlando21 wrote:Which breeders are offering the black grey tamaskans with the yellow eyes. I want one so bad.
I understand that you are looking for that particular trait but at the moment you will need to be patient. Colour is not everything. I, too, have a colour bias myself and was drawn to the coat of several red-grey dogs and I still hope to one day get a dog that resembles NC Mascot Wave. But if you are only approaching a breeder for "colours" alone then perhaps it may be wise to ask yourself "why?" as well as "can I trust this breeder?" in regards to the health and temperaments. I would still accept a dog who is nowhere within the red-grey if what I look for is not possible.

From past posts that the backyard breeder left on this forum before she took off, it was suggesting to me that she was breeding most of her dogs predominately for looks.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Valravn » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:28 pm

Moondance's girl Teyah has two siblings that are black. Irish/Ilo puppies Miss Squish
Teyah, or a dog related to her, could bring the blackgrey coloring to the breed.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by balto13 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:23 pm

I have been researching about black/greys as the standard is pretty vague "Black grey is any shade of grey or red with a long black overlay" ... so that any dog that looks black, is black by standard. So much to learn - there is sooooo much there. hahaha. This is what I have found

* the black from a/a (recessive black) and at/at (black and tan) won't show unless both are present because they are recessive. And that agouti is dominant to both of these but it is suspected that dominant black might be incomplete dominant. So, other than winnie and her sons, the other black/greys such as; akim, nanuq, and diesel, ect may not actually have black pigment - unless they carry both recessive genes.
Nino wrote: Just as I have my doubts that Nanuq and Akim are black greys..

I believe that if they are born "brown-ish" they can not be black greys even if they look a bit like that when adult..
Just look at normal recessive (or dominant) black dogs.. they are all born black, even if they turn lighter when they get old..


So, what makes them "black/grey" or look black is the mostly black overlay to wolf grey color - which is not the same as black (such as winnie). Some dogs it's hard to tell, such as Hyden, Wylie, Saga, ect. The black overlay is easier to distinguish in red dogs such as Ulric? I am hoping some of the other genetic nerds can chime in


Vajente wrote:I think the blackgreys in the breed right now are just very dark wolfgreys, there is probably a gene causing it but it is most likely a unknown gene which can't be tested (yet).

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Katlin » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:38 am

Wylie and Hyden I'd put as black grey, personally. They are so dark and they aren't the standard "wolf grey". Sega...I'd still classify as red grey since her underlay is so obviously red...where as Wylie and Hyden's is more dark.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by balto13 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:43 am

Katlin wrote:Wylie and Hyden I'd put as black grey, personally. They are so dark and they aren't the standard "wolf grey". Sega...I'd still classify as red grey since her underlay is so obviously red...where as Wylie and Hyden's is more dark.

I don't think they are genetically, but under the vague standard they are. I think if they had more white on them, or if the grey they had was lighter it would be easy to distinguish the black overlay as overlay and not as their dominant color.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Miran » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:34 pm

Just as I now start to understand a bit about the genetics I think we have no genetic black grey Tamaskan at all. Just the appearance black grey because of the pigments they have.
So I think calling one a black grey according to the standard is more the appearance then the real genetic inheriting of the coat color black

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Vajente » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:32 pm

you are right Miran, right now our black greys are either dark wolf grey or black and tan
we call them black grey because off their phenotype not their genotype, which can be confusing and it's hard to phenotype pups correctly

I would like to see only the real blacks(dominant or recessive) being called black grey, wolf greys being called wolf grey and whites being called white
and I would like to see the black and tans being an unaccepted color.
But right now color just isn't important enough to worry too much about so I'm just going to ignore it for now :P

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Booma » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:52 pm

Vajente wrote:you are right Miran, right now our black greys are either dark wolf grey or black and tan
we call them black grey because off their phenotype not their genotype, which can be confusing and it's hard to phenotype pups correctly

I would like to see only the real blacks(dominant or recessive) being called black grey, wolf greys being called wolf grey and whites being called white
and I would like to see the black and tans being an unaccepted color.
But right now color just isn't important enough to worry too much about so I'm just going to ignore it for now :P

What about the reds? They are Aw same as wolf grey, would you change them to wolf grey or leave as reds?
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by balto13 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:22 pm

Booma wrote:
Vajente wrote:you are right Miran, right now our black greys are either dark wolf grey or black and tan
we call them black grey because off their phenotype not their genotype, which can be confusing and it's hard to phenotype pups correctly

I would like to see only the real blacks(dominant or recessive) being called black grey, wolf greys being called wolf grey and whites being called white
and I would like to see the black and tans being an unaccepted color.

What about the reds? They are Aw same as wolf grey, would you change them to wolf grey or leave as reds?

I 100% agree with what you've said Vajente.

Booma, I know this might not be popular but I'd like to see red/grey and wolf/grey be considered the same color. I do not believe other breeds have their standard colors set up the way we do, I think it's called by what it is genetically - aw and so on as you mentioned above

... or am I mistaken? are there breeds that differentiate between the different color shades of aw?

Vajente wrote: But right now color just isn't important enough to worry too much about so I'm just going to ignore it for now :P
good point! and though color may not be "important" in the scheme of health it is still apart of the standard and what people breed towards, so I think it's good to discuss in addition to being able to discuss other parts of the standard, health, ect.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Vajente » Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:16 pm

Booma wrote:
Vajente wrote:you are right Miran, right now our black greys are either dark wolf grey or black and tan
we call them black grey because off their phenotype not their genotype, which can be confusing and it's hard to phenotype pups correctly

I would like to see only the real blacks(dominant or recessive) being called black grey, wolf greys being called wolf grey and whites being called white
and I would like to see the black and tans being an unaccepted color.
But right now color just isn't important enough to worry too much about so I'm just going to ignore it for now :P

What about the reds? They are Aw same as wolf grey, would you change them to wolf grey or leave as reds?
I would call all dogs wolf grey that are genetically wolf grey
there is no known difference between a red grey and a wolf grey so there is no reason to give them a separate name. We are only making it harder on ourselfs by doing that. Phenotyping pups is hard, a pup that looks red grey can grow up to be a wolf grey and the other way around and how much red would make a red grey? And what would you call the very pale ones? make up another name? and the dark ones? Who knows if a puppy will stay pale or dark.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Wolfsbane » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:35 pm

Vajente wrote: I would like to see only the real blacks(dominant or recessive) being called black grey, wolf greys being called wolf grey and whites being called white
and I would like to see the black and tans being an unaccepted color.
But right now color just isn't important enough to worry too much about so I'm just going to ignore it for now :P
Vajente wrote: there is no known difference between a red grey and a wolf grey so there is no reason to give them a separate name. We are only making it harder on ourselfs by doing that. Phenotyping pups is hard, a pup that looks red grey can grow up to be a wolf grey and the other way around and how much red would make a red grey? And what would you call the very pale ones? make up another name? and the dark ones? Who knows if a puppy will stay pale or dark.
I totally agree with this.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Booma » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:49 am

Jaq I didn't say I didn't want red grey to become wolf grey. I asked Lynn's opinion on what she would like to happen.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Miran » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:14 am

Like Lynn already said Color is at this moment not the most important thing so....
But I also think that it would be hard to register them on genotype. Like how would you call at this moment Akim and Nanuq? While they where dark as pup they where not black but dark wolfgrey if you know what I mean. And the real black an Tan as I see the Shepard has I also do not want that but can't you only know it is that by testing?
( I am learning just don't know it all so I am just asking away ;) )

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by balto13 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:58 am

Miran wrote:Like Lynn already said Color is at this moment not the most important thing so....

yes, health is the most important thing and I will always always agree to that. This is not a health topic/thread, it's a black/grey thread which is why I brought it here ;) <3 ( edit: awe man, can't make hearts on the forum ... anyways, you know I heart you Miran :lol: )

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Miran » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:50 am

whahahah I know ;) <3

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:15 pm

Vajente wrote:
I would like to see only the real blacks(dominant or recessive) being called black grey, wolf greys being called wolf grey and whites being called white
and I would like to see the black and tans being an unaccepted color.
But right now color just isn't important enough to worry too much about so I'm just going to ignore it for now :P
I 100% agree, a good thing to look into for the future.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:35 pm

AZDehlin wrote:
Vajente wrote:
I would like to see only the real blacks(dominant or recessive) being called black grey, wolf greys being called wolf grey and whites being called white
and I would like to see the black and tans being an unaccepted color.
But right now color just isn't important enough to worry too much about so I'm just going to ignore it for now :P
I 100% agree, a good thing to look into for the future.
If they are solid black (dominant or recessive) why would you call them Black GREY? The breed founders insisted that solid colors were not acceptable under any condition but now people want to add solid black and/or solid white as acceptable color variations? Wild wolves are not solid white or solid black, so not sure why we would officially add any solid colors, without some overlay or other colors blended in (hence the addition of the word "grey" to the color description). Of course there will be some overlap between the various shades, just as a Golden Retriever can come in several shades of yellow from pale sand color to dark copper...
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Booma » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:52 am

We've changed a few things since the blus left. Who's to say this can't be another thing we change?
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:07 am

Who is to say we don't try to get the banding in the black Greys... kind of like Winnie and her one son?

I honestly don't like the solid black or that cream /white color.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Wolfsbane » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:29 am

Sylvaen wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:
Vajente wrote:
I would like to see only the real blacks(dominant or recessive) being called black grey, wolf greys being called wolf grey and whites being called white
and I would like to see the black and tans being an unaccepted color.
But right now color just isn't important enough to worry too much about so I'm just going to ignore it for now :P
I 100% agree, a good thing to look into for the future.
If they are solid black (dominant or recessive) why would you call them Black GREY? The breed founders insisted that solid colors were not acceptable under any condition but now people want to add solid black and/or solid white as acceptable color variations? Wild wolves are not solid white or solid black, so not sure why we would officially add any solid colors, without some overlay or other colors blended in (hence the addition of the word "grey" to the color description). Of course there will be some overlap between the various shades, just as a Golden Retriever can come in several shades of yellow from pale sand color to dark copper...
So what you are saying is that dominant/recessive blacks are solid and therefor unacceptable??

Here's some TESTED dominant blacks...
Pepsi.jpg
Emma.jpg
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Vajente
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Vajente » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:12 am

another one tested KB
Image

I wouldn't call these dogs solid. This is the color we would want and we know it is possible so I don't see the problem in trying to get it, even if it doesn't work it is easy to breed out again

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Booma
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Booma » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:03 am

^^ that is the kind of black grey I want to own.
Image Image

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Valravn
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Valravn » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:03 am

Booma wrote:^^ that is the kind of black grey I want to own.
Same. They are gorgeous! :D

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