RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

All topics pertaining to the sale of TDR registered Tamaskan puppies / adults, as well as international shipping.
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Blustag
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RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by Blustag » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:57 pm

Here is another question for you guys to debate on.

I sell all my puppies under contract that they must be returned to me if owners have problems and need to have their pet rehomed. The reason being I have spent a lot of effort ensuring that the pup goes to the right home in the first instance and dont want that pup to be rehomed to just anyone. I also feel responsible for that pup and want to see it in its next home safely. I like to keep intouch with everyone who has my pups/adults. I do not buy puppies back but will refund puppy money in exceptional circumstances. I would not buy adults back. Sometimes it would involve quite a journey to get puppy/adult and may mean me keeping it for quite some time before a new home is found...all at my expense. It may also mean advertising locally (expensive). Sometimes young adults or older adults have a problem which means they need to be retrained etc again all time consuming.... What do you guys think..should I refund any money? Another conversation I was having with a friend recently as we did in fact get an adult back about 3 years ago which needed urgent and ongoing veterinary costs and cost me a fortune.... food for thought anyone? FYI she was rehomed happily several months later.

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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by MoirAran » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:05 pm

Can only speak for the Saarloos Wolfdog. As far as I know, breeders do not refund money when a dog is brought back. Most of the time the breeder is not taking the dog back, but will be helping finding a new suitable home.

Therefore also the breeder isn't charging any money to the new owners. You just have to be glad your dog has found a new home.

Having a dog back which is needing medical attention, hmmm, in my opinion it is a risk you calculate as a breeder. The same risk a dog owner is when they are getting a dog. Medical bills are not foreseen...
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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by Misaya » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:22 pm

No I don't think a refund should be given for adults coming back. If people are returning them for genuine reasons then they should be happy that the dog will be well looked after and rehomed responsibly.
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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by Rahne » Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:46 pm

If a puppy would be returned in the 1st week or so I would probably give the money or part of it back but not for older dogs.

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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by Nino » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:00 pm

I think it would depend on the situation.

As an example:
A Tamaskan owner has a well trained, beautiful (really tamaskan looking) health tested dog which he was planing to use in the breeding program but gets really sick and cannot keep the dog.
Since there is nothing wrong with the dog - and the owner put a lot of money into the dog to make it possible to use for breeding but doesn't get a chance - but the dog can still be used for breeding. I think in a situation like this he should be able to get some refund.


Another thing.. If it happens that a person cannot be able to keep a dog, but have someone willing to take it in - wouldn't that be a possibility - consulting the breeder of cause?
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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by Blustag » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:18 pm

MoirAran wrote: Having a dog back which is needing medical attention, hmmm, in my opinion it is a risk you calculate as a breeder. The same risk a dog owner is when they are getting a dog. Medical bills are not foreseen...
SHould have mentioned that this particular female was suffering from a very serious skin complaint bought about by her living conditions and nothing hereditary. I took her back with all her troubles and got them sorted over months.

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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by blufawn » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:15 pm

I do think there should be some sort of cut off date. Say a 21 day guarantee type of thing....

You just cannot sell older pups for the same price as a brand new baby, so if a breeder 'buys back' a puppy they will be making a huge loss over something that isnt their fault.
I would say the main cause of pups coming back is divorce, if it was me I would live in a car with my dog rather than giving him away, but not everyone feels that way and why should the breeders pay because they obviously dont love their dog as they should?
Also if the owner falls ill, this is understandable and it can be very upsetting for them. But should they be given money from the breeder?

I think it is the breeders responsibility to judge the age of the dog and circumstances and come to a decision on any refund they wish to give if any.

But I think in all circumstances it should not be a full refund (after all the deposit should always be no-returnable anyway)
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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by Amy » Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:02 pm

No cash back.If people know that there is no money back they think first before purchase.
If the dog is 3-4 years old, and the people have no more pleasure they give him away to get money back and get a new one. that is not correct. And the breeders have expenditures and working. An old dog is not loved better a puppy

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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by wicca1 » Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:50 pm

no i dont think mony should be refunded , sometimes things happen and a person has to give up their dog, hopefully it will give them some peace of mind knowing it has gone back to the breeder and will be rehomed in a good home.

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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by blufawn » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:54 am

I would worry that if they think they will not get money from their breeder they may break their contract and sell their pup privately, meaning the breeder then has no idea where it has gone and if it is being cared for.
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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by JulieSmith » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:32 pm

I have no problem with no money back, if my circumstances changed and I could not keep my dog I would be more concerned about it going to a good home than any money. I suppose if the owner has the time to keep it then they could work with the breeder to find a new home and charge a token fee just to make sure the new owner is serious, a bit like they charge in rescue centres. The only other option is to hand the dog over to a rescue centre, but you would not get any money then either.

I would rather the dog went back to the breeder as you then know that they would do their best to find a good home for it.

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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:00 am

Ah, this is interesting--as Ben and I just dealt with this very situation for Darwin. Of course, he was initially purchased from J&J, and we went to pick up the dog from the previous owner. The question Ben and I asked ourselves was:

"Is the contract enforceable?" "Is the language explicit about surrendering the puppy, rather than being bought back?" Is "rehoming" and "rescuing" the same thing? Do either imply no cash exchange? This language may need to be worked out differently depending on where the breeder lives (down to the state here in the US) and legal language checked by a lawyer. :roll:

Has anyone ever used a legal process to collect a Tamaskan Dog? *curious*
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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by Tarheel » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:22 am

"Is the contract enforceable?" "Is the language explicit about surrendering the puppy, rather than being bought back?" Is "rehoming" and "rescuing" the same thing? Do either imply no cash exchange? This language may need to be worked out differently depending on where the breeder lives (down to the state here in the US) and legal language checked by a lawyer.
A written contract is enforceable. One would more than likely have to hire a lawyer if someone were to break the contract.
Re-homing and rescue are two different terms not really associated with each other. Rescue would be a situation where the owner surrenders the dog to a Rescue organization such as what Denise does for the NTCA, and no money should be paid out to take a dog into a rescue. Re-homing is more on the lines of when good people/ breeders help out someone or some dog in certain circumstances. In situations of re-homing, all parties should come to some type of agreement on the conditions of the re-homing, and if money is involved.
Every situation is different, and initial puchase contracts should be followed as best as possible.
We are in this for the dogs and because of our love for the dogs. We should follow our heart and do what is right as responsible breeders and owners of the Tamaskan Dog.
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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by Molly » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:32 pm

It is a subject very interesting....

For my part, I took back 11 dogs (always CLTS) since 2002 I have never paid off the ancient owners who returned their dog to me.

All my sale contracts stipulate, that I keep a right to inspect my puppies and that I resume the dog, about is the reason (divorce, birth, chomage, disease, or another ......ect)

Not to accept this contractual clause in the reservation of the puppy, amounts to the fact that I refuse to sell the puppy to this person!

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Re: RETURNED PUPS/ADULTS

Post by nivenj » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:15 pm

Caveat Emptor:- I'm no lawyer, and my experience in contract law is based on commercial contracts not involving livestock, so there maybe some subtle differences, however......

Contract law is a minefield. It becomes even more complicated when you start talking about international borders. i.e Seller in country A selling to someone in country B. If the Contract is a "Contract of purchase" or "Contract of Sale", then there are legal rights and transfer of ownership that are implied by these words. It does not matter what words you put in this contract to the contrary as there are certain rights which cannot be waived even by agreement as they are governed under preceding law. Refunding of monies paid is also not clear cut. The Seller is allowed to charge a non refundable deposit for items that are bespoke to the buyer, or to cover "reasonable" costs that the seller has incurred in procuring or re-stocking the item. The key here is "reasonable". If it can be shown that the deposit charged was used for a) b) and c) and those actions where necessary and reasonable, then no refund would be due, however I think you would need to prove that you had the litter specifically for the buyer and if they had not asked to buy then you would not have had the litter. The other area that could be problematic is the Distance selling regulations. If a Buyer has no opportunity to inspect the item before paying, they have a certain period in which they can change their mind after delivery and the Seller is obliged to take the item back and offer a full refund, including any carriage charges.

In order to put caveats around rights to ownership, then it would need to be a "Lease Contract" and not a purchase. In this instance then the right of ownership remains with the seller at all times, and the contract would set forth the conditions of the lease, payments and breach of contract due to non performance (ie owner not looking after dog etc). However again this brings new challenges. The Lessee now has rights if for example the dog were to develop a health issue, The Lessor could be liable for all vets fee's if there were no negligence on the lessee's part. And if the worst was to happen, there could be a requirement to pro-rata the charges and issue a part refund.

The company I work for spends tens of Millions a year in contract law and even then, its accepted they are not watertight. So I'm not sure where you get your contracts from, however, I would say, unless they are exceptionally well done and have closed off all the loopholes (and I know there will be some that cannot), then its really down to who has the best poker face I think.
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