Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

All topics pertaining to the sale of TDR registered Tamaskan puppies / adults, as well as international shipping.
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Rahne

Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by Rahne » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:58 pm

My question for everyone... Should the Registration Certificate/Pedigree be a 'proof of quality'?

What do I mean with this? The TDR rules currently state that all dogs need to be hip scored before breeding and if this doesn't happen then the pups won't be registered with the TDR. So right now buying a TDR registered Tamaskan pup is 'proof' that the parents have been hip scored (and passed), so a form of 'quality'.

In the Netherlands (and also several other countries) this isn't the case. If a breeder doesn't follow the rules they will get a fine or other form of 'punishment' BUT the pups do get registered. So here, the pedigree is 'proof' of lineage and nothing more. Pedigree dog x Pedigree dog is always Pedigree pups.

What do you all think?

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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:10 pm

All pups should be registered but with restrictions that could be 'revised' when the pup hits maturity i think and registering all pups will keep track on which pup went where...

The proof of quality could be printed on the pedigree's? Like hip score for each parent, DM status for each parent etc... or next to the kennel names of each dog throughout the generations... ? ... a bit much?
Seem's logical because the proof of quality will be visible but not sure if it's practical...
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by Rahne » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:15 pm

My own opinion... I think the pedigree should stay as a 'proof' of lineage. Of course in order to keep it as that all dogs should be DNA profiled AND have a parentage analysis done. So if one of the parents isn't DNA profiled then the pups can't be registered.

Breeders should be stimulated to do certain health testing, the 'Accredited Breeders Scheme' could play a role in this (it does needs to be revised). The more rules you set, the more they will be broken... human nature ;) All test results will be available to the public, by the online pedigree database, so everyone can look up which dogs have been tested and for what etc. Health results of parents and grand-parents will also be listed on the pedigree.

We want to keep track of the whole breed and keep the gene pool as wide as possible. If we refuse to register dogs (because for example, one of the parents wasn't old enough yet) we will miss out on data and possible breeding material. There should be consequences yes, for breeders who break the rules. I would rather have it in the form of fines/suspensions then in the form of puppy registrations.

In case a litter was born from parents who don't meet the health standards the pups could all have breeding restrictions placed. Those restrictions could stay on or be lifted after certain requirements are met (health testing).

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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by tigerstedt » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:18 pm

As a German Shepherd owner with hip problems, one of the things that drew me towards the Tam was the scoring and the apparent vigilance the TDR showed regarding health as well as pedigree. I knew I'd probarbly had to pay a bit more for a pup due to higher vet bill for the parents, but for me this was more than OK. I'll pay for quality and health, gladely, if I think the pup gets a better life with fewer health problems (or at least is given better odds).

I think the mandatory scoring brings sincerity to the TDR and the breed.
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by Rahne » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:22 pm

tigerstedt wrote:As a German Shepherd owner with hip problems, one of the things that drew me towards the Tam was the scoring and the apparent vigilance the TDR showed regarding health as well as pedigree. I knew I'd probarbly had to pay a bit more for a pup due to higher vet bill for the parents, but for me this was more than OK. I'll pay for quality and health, gladely, if I think the pup gets a better life with fewer health problems (or at least is given better odds).

I think the mandatory scoring brings sincerity to the TDR and the breed.
Please note that I'm not stating we should drop the mandatory hip scoring.

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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by tigerstedt » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:07 am

With the online pedigree it's easy to check wether or not a pup is a Tam, as claimed. To keep mandatory scoring on all breeding dogs will most likely help keeping breeders honest. Not from scored parents, not registered, not a Tam, poor price (countering puppy-mills who are in it for the €).

Of course, it can also depend on the fine, however, 5 pups x 1.000€ = 50.000€. Would a fine be even close to that amount?
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by Booma » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:09 am

Maybe if rules are broken, the pups from that litter are sold at a discounted price -£500 instead of £1000?
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by AngieH » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:13 am

Is this an "either/or" delema?
Is it possible to have registration for all pedigreed dogs for census and health database purposes *and* an additional "certificate of quality" for Tamaskans eligible for breeding? Assuming, of course, they develop no future disqualifying health conditions or breed faults which could result in the dog forfeiting his certificate.

Conversly, *if* a registered dog from non-quality parentage was later desired for breeding due to some especially desired trait or advantage, the comitee *could* consider the merits of issuing a "certificat of quality" to the dog on a case-by-case basis. Again, assuming, of course, he passed all required health testing?

You could then have the best of both worlds and still cultivate the broadest possible data base and gene pool.

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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by tigerstedt » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:16 am

Kylievr wrote:Maybe if rules are broken, the pups from that litter are sold at a discounted price -£500 instead of £1000?
How would TDR enforce this discount? Isn't the price up to the breeder? As in supply and demand?
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by tigerstedt » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:20 am

AngieH: Why not disqualify the dog from the register? If the dog shows exeptional traits, it could be reintroduced as a fondation dog, going through the TDR.
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by Ciaobella » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:30 am

tigerstedt wrote:
Kylievr wrote:Maybe if rules are broken, the pups from that litter are sold at a discounted price -£500 instead of £1000?
How would TDR enforce this discount? Isn't the price up to the breeder? As in supply and demand?
I'm also curious what you mean by this Kylievr. I do mot think the TDR has any authority on what the price of any breeders puppies are. Now whether the future buyer makes an informed decision before buying is up to them. Just like any other breed ...



I do not have an opinion on the OP though as I am confused on what is being asked. Probably just me though :lol:
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by AngieH » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:37 am

tigerstedt wrote:AngieH: Why not disqualify the dog from the register? If the dog shows exeptional traits, it could be reintroduced as a fondation dog, going through the TDR.
Because then the TDR data base looses the dog's long term health reporting and census info. Even a non-quality dog may yield important information if it develops genetic conditions or helps establish a pattern of inheritance from quality dogs farther back in the pedigree.
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by Booma » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:41 am

Ciaobella wrote:
tigerstedt wrote:
Kylievr wrote:Maybe if rules are broken, the pups from that litter are sold at a discounted price -£500 instead of £1000?
How would TDR enforce this discount? Isn't the price up to the breeder? As in supply and demand?
I'm also curious what you mean by this Kylievr. I do mot think the TDR has any authority on what the price of any breeders puppies are. Now whether the future buyer makes an informed decision before buying is up to them. Just like any other breed ...



I do not have an opinion on the OP though as I am confused on what is being asked. Probably just me though :lol:
No idea how I'd would be enforced, it was just an idea.
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by tigerstedt » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:50 am

AngieH wrote:Because then the TDR data base looses the dog's long term health reporting and census info. Even a non-quality dog may yield important information if it develops genetic conditions or helps establish a pattern of inheritance from quality parents farther back in the pedigree.
Got it ;)
So, if I get your previous post right:

1. All dogs should be registered in one database (pedigree)
2. All breeding dogs are scored and kept in a "OK for breeding" database.
3. If we need one dog in no1 with special traits in a breed program, and it can't make the cut into no2, it may still be used if considered safe by TDR (and we keep track of lineage through the pedigree)

Am I close to understanding your position :roll: ?
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by AngieH » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:53 am

tigerstedt wrote:
AngieH wrote:Because then the TDR data base looses the dog's long term health reporting and census info. Even a non-quality dog may yield important information if it develops genetic conditions or helps establish a pattern of inheritance from quality parents farther back in the pedigree.
Got it ;)
So, if I get your previous post right:

1. All dogs should be registered in one database (pedigree)
2. All breeding dogs are scored and kept in a "OK for breeding" database.
3. If we need on dog in no1 with special traits in a breed program, and it can't make the cut into no2, it may still be used if considered safe by TDR (and we keep track of lineage through the pedigree)

Am I close to understanding your position :roll: ?
That's what I'm proposing. Thank you. That was very succinctly put.
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by tigerstedt » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:59 am

AngieH wrote:That's what I'm proposing. Thank you. That was very succinctly put.
I'm not a native English speaker, so I need the semantic to make sure I get it right :D

Other than that, it sounds like a compromise I could go for, IF the dog was clearly marked in the breeding dog database with some (short) reason on why it got a pass
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by AngieH » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:05 am

tigerstedt wrote:
AngieH wrote:That's what I'm proposing. Thank you. That was very succinctly put.
I'm not a native English speaker, so I need the semantic to make sure I get it right :D

Other than that, it sounds like a compromise I could go for, IF the dog was clearly marked in the breeding dog database with some (short) reason on why it got a pass
Aggree!

For transparency, there should be a published justification for "promoting" the non-quality dog to the "quality" level. Otherwise we risk the appearance of favoritism.
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by tigerstedt » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:19 am

And now for the original question:

Should pedigree dog + pedigree dog = pedigree pups? Even if the dame and sire are not healthy enough for breeding?

On principle, I would say NO.

If this should be an accidental mating (dogs will be dogs :D ), get the dogs scored ASAP, and if everything is OK, inkl pedigree, we have a new litter registered in TDR.

If things look bad, black list the litter. Only dogs in the breeding database should get litters registered. This is where I think puppy-mills will shy away and how we keep a mark of quality on the breed.

I know I'm harsh.
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by AngieH » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:45 am

tigerstedt wrote:And now for the original question:

Should pedigree dog + pedigree dog = pedigree pups? Even if the dame and sire are not healthy enough for breeding?

On principle, I would say NO.

If this should be an accidental mating (dogs will be dogs :D ), get the dogs scored ASAP, and if everything is OK, inkl pedigree, we have a new litter registered in TDR.

If things look bad, black list the litter. Only dogs in the breeding database should get litters registered. This is where I think puppy-mills will shy away and how we keep a mark of quality on the breed.

I know I'm harsh.
On principle, I absolutely see your point. But in practice, I fear that without offering some tipe of legitimization, we could loose important, long-term, health and census information unless owners are encouraged and welcomed to register their dogs in a health database of some kind. If you don't want to call it a pedigree, we can pick another word. Perhaps call it a "heritage" database. For all Tamaskan dogs of known lineage?

What is the ratio of Tamaskan owners to Tamaskan breeders?

It would benefit the breeding goals of the few breeders if we restrict registration to only breeding-quality dogs for simplicity and make it easy to enforce adherence to breeding protocols.

But it would benefit the *dogs* and their *owners* best to have them *all* registered in some way so health, inheritance, and census data can be tracked breed-wide. What a useful tool for pet entheusiasts with no breeding ambitions to track their dog and see what is going on with the health of their whole "family!" What an amazing way to help the public select a breeder to get their dog from!

I sometimes think the TDR only considers the breeder and breed ambition while the perspective of the pet owner gets lost in these discussions. What kind of breeding program can survive without the support and involvement of pet owners?
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by Nino » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:20 pm

I might look at this very conservative, so I hope you can handle, here goes ;)


I have grown up with the rules - Pedigree papers (Studbook papers, Registration Papers,call it whatever you want to) is only given to dogs who's parent's live up to the rules set down by the Kennel Club (DKK).
This means that if a dog is not prior to the mating the offspring of this dog cannot get a Registration Certificate, in a breed like ex. the Siberian Husky have to have it's hips checked (FCI A, B or C is allowed), males have to be checked that both testes are there, and both parents have to be checked for cataract and PRA - if any of these are missing, simply the pups will not get registered.

A registration in the DKK automatically means that the dog potentially can be used for breeding (if it also fits the standard of course - which also means that they needs to be showed with the minimum requirement), this means that by receiving the papers you also receive at least a minimum promise of quality.
A dog that does not have papers cannot be used for showing or breeding, it is simple and it is straightforward. Papers equal a quality stamp, that this dog has parents that have gone through certain things to be allowed to breed.

THIS is what I wish for the TDR papers to mean.
THIS is what I bought into when I got my Tamaskan, when I got into the breed.

I see no problem of giving out a piece of paper that represents a heritage of Tamaskan Dog, but I seriously cannot be behind just every dog being registered even if the parent dogs does not meet the standard requirements (which I seriously don't think are that harsh) since I see registration as a promise of at least some sort of quality..

In my opinion and you might not agree with me, it might even make you a bit angry when saying it, not every dog should be registered, not every dog are anything else but a good pet and most important not every dog should be bred, and when breeding dogs that should not have been bred, then the pups should not be registered.
If they then later on show excellent quality, then they can as any other non Tamaskan, apply to be registered and then will be looked at by the TDR.
Not having been registered from the start does not mean a dog cannot later on be registered, if they have sublime quality (and I mean something out of the ordinary - not just any dog that could shows up in other litters).
If a litter is not registered from the start because the parents have yet to be health tested, then there is no reason why they cannot be registered and if the parents simply does not pass the test, then no harm done, it is simply a litter of unregistered dogs.
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by AZDehlin » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:52 pm

Not really sure what we are trying to address here exactly.

I think all pups should be registered so we can keep track of them... But I think all pups born to parents not tested or got bad results( hips, eyes, testicles not descended) need to be on pet restrictions until test on parents are completed or forever.

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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by AngieH » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:01 am

Nino wrote:I might look at this very conservative, so I hope you can handle, here goes ;)


I have grown up with the rules - Pedigree papers (Studbook papers, Registration Papers,call it whatever you want to) is only given to dogs who's parent's live up to the rules set down by the Kennel Club (DKK).
This means that if a dog is not prior to the mating the offspring of this dog cannot get a Registration Certificate, in a breed like ex. the Siberian Husky have to have it's hips checked (FCI A, B or C is allowed), males have to be checked that both testes are there, and both parents have to be checked for cataract and PRA - if any of these are missing, simply the pups will not get registered.

A registration in the DKK automatically means that the dog potentially can be used for breeding (if it also fits the standard of course - which also means that they needs to be showed with the minimum requirement), this means that by receiving the papers you also receive at least a minimum promise of quality.
A dog that does not have papers cannot be used for showing or breeding, it is simple and it is straightforward. Papers equal a quality stamp, that this dog has parents that have gone through certain things to be allowed to breed.

THIS is what I wish for the TDR papers to mean.
THIS is what I bought into when I got my Tamaskan, when I got into the breed.

I see no problem of giving out a piece of paper that represents a heritage of Tamaskan Dog, but I seriously cannot be behind just every dog being registered even if the parent dogs does not meet the standard requirements (which I seriously don't think are that harsh) since I see registration as a promise of at least some sort of quality..

In my opinion and you might not agree with me, it might even make you a bit angry when saying it, not every dog should be registered, not every dog are anything else but a good pet and most important not every dog should be bred, and when breeding dogs that should not have been bred, then the pups should not be registered.
If they then later on show excellent quality, then they can as any other non Tamaskan, apply to be registered and then will be looked at by the TDR.
Not having been registered from the start does not mean a dog cannot later on be registered, if they have sublime quality (and I mean something out of the ordinary - not just any dog that could shows up in other litters).
If a litter is not registered from the start because the parents have yet to be health tested, then there is no reason why they cannot be registered and if the parents simply does not pass the test, then no harm done, it is simply a litter of unregistered dogs.
Well stated and I'm not angry at you for your position at all. I respect it very much. I also aggree with you that by keeping registration as a mark of quality and adding a heritage database for all Tamaskans, it would nicely achieve both desired results. (quality and broad information network)

I could absolutely support a system like you describe.
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by TeresaC » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:27 am

AZDehlin wrote:Not really sure what we are trying to address here exactly.

I think all pups should be registered so we can keep track of them... But I think all pups born to parents not tested or got bad results( hips, eyes, testicles not descended) need to be on pet restrictions until test on parents are completed or forever.
I agree that we should register all pups so we can keep track of them, but we still need to do health testing and have standards for all breeding dogs and bitches.
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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by arianwenarie » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:14 am

I see and agree with both points that have been raise: 1) register all purebred Tamaskan Dogs regardless of health testing results on parents so that we can track all purebred Tams worldwide in the database, but differ between "limited" registration and full registration and 2) only quality Tamaskans be registered from parents passing health testing and allow unregistered pups to get the chance to apply for registration IFF they pass health testing.

I think there needs to be a compromise of sorts...treat the database as just that - a database of Tamaskans worldwide that also happens to double as the role of the official registry of Tamaskan Dogs wroldwide.

So here's what I propose and keep in mind that it's the middle of the night and my brain is probably not very coherent...

Enter all purebred Tamaskans in the database and have two different registration number schemes - one for quality (passing health tested parents) and another 'general' purebred Tamaskan (non-passing/untested parents that are purebred themselves whether registered or not). i.e. TDR328G4 (quality) and NR274G3 (purebred status)

I know some folks will see this proposed scheme as the same as registering 'non-quality' Tamaskans, but IMHO, the database's main goal is more so to serve as a worldwide database for all purebred Tamaskan dogs - even those from unregistered parents (if possible) in the event any of those owners wish to apply for registration. And if accepted, the TDR can still place breeding restrictions on a dog if they want (limited registration).

Feel free to discuss/debate this...my brain is now going to go back to watching kdrama and turn to mush. :P

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Re: Registration/Pedigree as 'proof of quality'?

Post by AngieH » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:16 pm

I have enjoyed a few hours browsing the Tamaskan Database Rahne has so generously spent so much of her time on, and it occurred to me... Maybe we already have the best of both worlds?

My Paka & Fable *are* in the data base (to provide health info and contribute to a body of knowledge re: inheritance and population.)
but they are not registered. (in the "registration number" box, it simply reads "no reg")

So it looks like we have already solved this problem to some degree. The question now is, "What, if any, incentive does the TDR want to give the owners of non-registered Tamaskans to provide their data?"

For my part, it was *plenty* of incentive to just have access to the detailed family tree and info about the dogs behind my girls. I think for many, that will be plenty of incentive for owners to provide the details of their non-registered pet dogs. (provided they know about it.) Do you think my response is "normal" "standard" or "average"?
(I'll leave that question to the TDR committee. Like most people, I suffer from the vanity that I *am* the "average" person :oops: )

Do you think the "carrot" of a limited registration document might win more participation and be a good public relations move? I don't know but it wasn't necessary for me. :roll: I'm afraid I'm a bit of a Tam-Fanatic at this point. :lol:

For my part, I am grateful my girls are included in the heritage database. If the TDR committee decides to offer a limited registration to Tamaskans born to non-registered breeders, I would be honored to apply for two. But I obtained Paka and Fable with no such ambition and no breeding intentions. I do not believe the TDR owes any recognition any dog but those they have sanctioned. The decision to register or not register dogs is not a "public" decision and it is generous of the TDR committee to call for public opinion to inform their decision.

That said, maybe it would help with legitimacy, transparency and separation of powers if the TDR chose to register their dogs with a recognized third party registry out of their direct control and subject themselves to the rules and protocols of the external registry?
(Otherwise, the TDR is just behaving like RPK "registering" their own dogs with themselves not answering to any governing body.)

http://designercanineregistry.com/

http://www.unitedregistry.com/

http://www.purebredregistry.com/?gclid= ... QAodjyd1Fg
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