what age to send pups home

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what age to send pups home

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:19 pm

Hello,
I just wanted to start a friendly discussion about when to send pups home. I am a firm believer in waiting until 8 weeks of age--but since I've made this decision I have read that other breeders (in the dog world--not necessarily in the Tam world) wait until 12 weeks of age. That's three months!

If you consider that most socialization should be complete by 16 weeks that doesn't give much time for the new puppy parent to get that pup out in the world. I suppose that assumes most of the socialization would be done by the breeder.

Anyhow--what are your thoughts about when to send pups home?
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by arianwenarie » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:11 pm

The longer pups stay with their littermates and mom, the more dog social skills the puppies will learn from each other - mainly proper play and learning how hard to play with their mouths. I'm not sure when puppies experience their fear period, but I think the longer they stay with mom, the less of an issue this may be...

I'd probably go for 10 weeks since that's the in-between. However, if you want to wait til 12 weeks, go for it. 8-) Human socialization for a puppy can wait til 20 weeks to be completed, but for any dog, it's never too late to start...it all depends on the dog's comfort level and whatever underlying issues the dog may have. I believe puppies that stay with their mom & littermates will have an easier time with their dog social skills later on in life.

If I were to get a puppy, I would take a puppy at 8 weeks old, but I'd prefer 10 weeks so that I'd have an in-between time frame to work with. This would still give me time to work both dog and human social as well as desensitizing to various textures and sounds (rolling skateboard, shiny bubble wrap, uneven surfaces, uneven moving surfaces, etc). I can also get a head start on training! :D

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by PawPrint » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:56 pm

I am not a breeder, but I guess when I take a pup would depend (for me) on how much socialisation the puppies get with the breeder.

Of course, interaction with mum and sibblings is vital. So I would not feel happy taking a pup home sooner than 8 weeks. I don't think there would be much of a problem leaving it a bit later than that. But as you say, socialisation should start sooner rather than later.

Ideally...I would only take a pup older than 10 weeks old if I knew they had been carefully exposed to hoovers, hairdryers and other household noises, strangers, a few other dogs outside its family, and had the chance to explore at least there own garden,(children and other pets would be a good bonus too!)
This would be great as then you could get the good doggie social skills that arianwenarie mentioned and an intro to socialisation while the pup still has the comfort of his mum and siblings!

I don't know how much is usually expected of breeders though! :oops: That sounds like a tonne of work!!! :lol:

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:27 pm

Well, we're going to do a lot of training and socialization before the pups go home. There are over 100 people in my building at work--so that's a possibility for human exposure. We will also have lots of visitors. But then there's the flipside: are we exposing them to disease? Oh, boy--you can't have everything!

I guess I'm just concerned about pups and fear periods. We didn't have any issues with Freyja, and we picked her up at 9 weeks old. Fenris was clearly less than 8 weeks old when we got him from the Humane Society--and he was a nervous wreck!

We will be letting pups go at 8 weeks, that's already set for this litter. I guess I'm just thinking of the next litter. But why wait until 12 weeks? Fear periods are supposed to last between 8 and 16 weeks. *sigh* Anything that frightens the pup between this window will have a chance of affecting them for their entire lives.

There's so much conflicting information in the dog breeding world! LOL
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lick like there's no end to kissing
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Tiantai » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:32 pm

PawPrint wrote:I am not a breeder, but I guess when I take a pup would depend (for me) on how much socialisation the puppies get with the breeder.

Of course, interaction with mum and sibblings is vital. So I would not feel happy taking a pup home sooner than 8 weeks. I don't think there would be much of a problem leaving it a bit later than that. But as you say, socialisation should start sooner rather than later.

Ideally...I would only take a pup older than 10 weeks old if I knew they had been carefully exposed to hoovers, hairdryers and other household noises, strangers, a few other dogs outside its family, and had the chance to explore at least there own garden,(children and other pets would be a good bonus too!)
This would be great as then you could get the good doggie social skills that arianwenarie mentioned and an intro to socialisation while the pup still has the comfort of his mum and siblings!

I don't know how much is usually expected of breeders though! :oops: That sounds like a tonne of work!!! :lol:
Thanks for sharing, that's just what a lot of us are thinking ;) I especially agree with the bite inhibition part. It's harder for a human to instill those inhibitors on a pup than for another dog as they are growing their teeth out.

Side note: Some northern spitz dogs whom have lived with their littermates a bit over the 12 weeks may also learn to "hit" a person irritating them (an open-mouth smack to the forearm but the dog will not close its mouth, instead they're leaving it wide open to tell you that you're doing something it dislikes and wants you to understand). I've been hit by my Snoopy few times in the past (for playing a violent rail-shooting video game too loud in his room :lol: ) so I can tell you that it won't hurt as much as a bite. I don't know if anyone's been hit by a Tamaskan yet though as this trait is mostly found in a few Huskies and some Malamutes.
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:34 pm

No, neither of our Tamaskan have "hit" us. They do lick us to death, though. Freyja will "woo woo" to get our attention, and jump in 180 circles. :D
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bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
lick like there's no end to kissing
sleep on a sofa nearby
jump like the sky is the limit
sit by the fire with friends
stay with the ones who love you
run like the road never ends

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by arianwenarie » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:36 pm

I probably wouldn't start exposing pups to people inside the home until they've gotten their first round of shots - even then, there's risk of puppies getting exposed. Human socializing is good, but health safety obviously comes first. :)

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by arianwenarie » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:38 pm

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:Side note: Some northern spitz dogs whom have lived with their littermates a bit over the 12 weeks may also learn to "hit" a person irritating them (an open-mouth smack to the forearm but the dog will not close its mouth, instead they're leaving it wide open to tell you that you're doing something it dislikes and wants you to understand). I've been hit by my Snoopy few times in the past (for playing a violent rail-shooting video game too loud in his room :lol: ) so I can tell you that it won't hurt as much as a bite. I don't know if anyone's been hit by a Tamaskan yet though as this trait is mostly found in a few Huskies and some Malamutes.
:o Now that you mention it, a wolf hybrid that boards at the kennels I work at does this when she doesn't want to come back in from the yard! (Totally off-topic, sorry... /shame) It's scary when Kaia does that though...never know if she's seriously trying to bite. lol.

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Vajente » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:55 pm

I don't want a pup older than 8 weeks. They learn so much in those first few weeks and I like to teach them things in my way and it so much easier when they're younger. If you know how it's easy to teach a dog how hard he can or can't bite.

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by MoirAran » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:12 pm

At what age do pups get their first shot in the USA? Here it is at 6 weeks, so that would be too late to start with visitors at the house.

Here a lot of breeders allow visitors, when the pups are 3 weeks old. We also did. But we asked the visitors to put on fresh clothes before they came to see our pups, take their shoes of at the front door and first wash their hands with desinfectant soap. The breeder of our dogs does the same thing.

maybe it depends on the breed, but personally I would want my pup before 12 weeks. I think it is really hard to do the socializing needed when you have a lot of pups. It is sooooo hard work. So I would want a pup around 8 - 9 weeks.
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:49 pm

well, i can't say as a breeder but as a adopter i had a hard time waiting till 8 weeks, never mind 12 :lol: and i think the teachings will be easier with future mummy and daddy because everyone trains differently, uses different hand movements and commands and may not necessarily "like" the way you train or the commands used which is all easier done at a younger age... and if the person has other pets who are unsure of dogs, the sleeps a lot pup is ideal... my cats used that time to investigate, sniff and inspect because he wasn't moving about. i don't think, without that opportunity, my cats would have taken to sam too well and from 12 week onward he started sleeping less so it would have been 4 weeks less to become accustomed... but like i said, it's from a future mummy and daddy point of view, not breeder. it may look different from that side...
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Tiantai » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:42 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:Side note: Some northern spitz dogs whom have lived with their littermates a bit over the 12 weeks may also learn to "hit" a person irritating them (an open-mouth smack to the forearm but the dog will not close its mouth, instead they're leaving it wide open to tell you that you're doing something it dislikes and wants you to understand). I've been hit by my Snoopy few times in the past (for playing a violent rail-shooting video game too loud in his room :lol: ) so I can tell you that it won't hurt as much as a bite. I don't know if anyone's been hit by a Tamaskan yet though as this trait is mostly found in a few Huskies and some Malamutes.
:o Now that you mention it, a wolf hybrid that boards at the kennels I work at does this when she doesn't want to come back in from the yard! (Totally off-topic, sorry... /shame) It's scary when Kaia does that though...never know if she's seriously trying to bite. lol.
:lol: Yeah I probably shouldn't have mentioned it here. WAyyyyy off topic :lol: so I'm not going to get too far on this but to summarize: dingoes, wolves, and wolfdogs do hit more often than domestic dogs. The reason why dogs are RARELY known to hit is because hitting is something that is learnt among the pack very later during their mature teeth-growing stage. While the wild canines have a faster learning brain than a dog and learn it as soon as their carnassials have grown out, most domestic pups don't get the chance to strike each other in the leg too often so they tend not to learn how to refrain from closing their mouths when smacking another person and it's nearly impossible for a person to teach them how to as this must be taught from one dog to another during the adult teeth-growing process. Many breeds like the pugs can NEVER acquire this trait because of the shapes of their mouths while most northern spitz can but not if they live alone or with another dog that does not know how to hit. So far, at least in my past experiences, hitting is apparently exclusive to only the oldest intelligent northern spitz-type dogs like my Snoopy. The only other person I know who has been hit by a dog was an old Italian woman who owned a West Siberian Laika whom used to live in my grandmother's neighbourhood; she's the one who first taught me about this when I was still a child though until Snoopy smacked me twice six years ago (he hates when the television volume is loud) I didn't know much about it either. :lol: To rap it up, the only thing that results from a hit is some minor bruises but I've never bled from it.

And no, I don't think your wolfdog was going to bite you. If she hit you, she clearly meant to say that she did NOT want to bite you but just wanted you to understand much like how Snoopy hit my wrist to tell me to turn down the volume or at one time telling me to "get your little annoying loud screaming cousin off MY bed!" He doesn't like a few of my relatives and I should not have brought them into his room but had no intention to harm them. Some breeds are very SMART these days. They just know that biting is not right and want people to know. ;)

For the transferring of pups to their new homes, I usually prefer it be between 8 to 12 weeks because those are the best times for the new owners to socialize and teach the dog what's right and wrong. Not like an adult dog cannot be taught these but it's harder because dogs tend to remember their previous owners and depending on the individual's personality may demand the same kind of proper treatment that they had with their previous owners or simply judge the new owner more thoroughly than a learning pup would. But in some cases, if you brought a pup home as late as 13 months and you already have a well trained adult, the pup may learn bond slightly more easily with the more experienced dog than with the strange person. Though I'd never recommend that.
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:42 pm

As a prospected owner I wanted my Tam as soon as possible. I got Zephyr a day off of nine weeks (Pups have to be a little older to fly internationally... UK to US.) As a future breeder I was thinking letting them go between 9-10 weeks.

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Tiantai » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:48 pm

AZDehlin wrote:As a prospected owner I wanted my Tam as soon as possible. I got Zephyr a day off of nine weeks (Pups have to be a little older to fly internationally... UK to US.) As a future breeder I was thinking letting them go between 9-10 weeks.
When I get my first Tamaskan dog (hopefully an offspring of Kana from Tarheel) I hope to get my pup by 8 weeks so that I can teach it the basic requirements for a search and rescue dog as well as a sled puller. It's in their heritage to pull sleds :lol: Due to the distance between Ontario and North Carolina, I don't think plane shipping will be necessary.
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:57 pm

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:As a prospected owner I wanted my Tam as soon as possible. I got Zephyr a day off of nine weeks (Pups have to be a little older to fly internationally... UK to US.) As a future breeder I was thinking letting them go between 9-10 weeks.
When I get my first Tamaskan dog (hopefully an offspring of Kana from Tarheel) I hope to get my pup by 8 weeks so that I can teach it the basic requirements for a search and rescue dog as well as a sled puller. It's in their heritage to pull sleds :lol: Due to the distance between Ontario and North Carolina, I don't think plane shipping will be necessary.
I will be flying my hopeful Kana x Jaeger pup to Michigan... I am a good 20 hour drive from Tarheel and with gas approaching 5 US Dollars... ( 900$ round trip just for gas with the car I have to drive.)

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Tiantai » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:06 pm

I drive a 2005 Sienna which takes a lot of gas but make less gas. Well, I guess I'll worry about that when the time comes.
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:12 pm

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:I drive a 2005 Sienna which takes a lot of gas but make less gas. Well, I guess I'll worry about that when the time comes.
I drive a 1985 Buick Cutlass... big gas guzzler, and gas will not be getting any cheaper. So flying the pup is the best option for me.

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Nino » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:54 pm

I havent read the thead (as I'm about to go to bed) but I am seriously considering waiting till 11 weeks of age, because I am thinking it will both give the best chance of seeing how pups will turn out, but more importantly, it will be in the end of the first "fear-period"
And I both want to socialize the pups best as possible but make sure that they aren't going to have "terrifying" events that will have impact later on.. waiting till 11 weeks of age will also insure that the pups will get the first shots and only will have to be "protected" for 1 week in their new homes before they can have their final shot and go out into the world - plus they will have extra chance of leaning how to learn doggy language, hierarchy and start a little of the training (waiting, sitting and housebreaking)..

I will probably return to the tread tomorrow to read what you other guys have written..
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Booma » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:33 pm

As an owner, I'd want my pup at 8 weeks, but as a breeder I'd probably wait a little longer to see how they turn out, who is pet quality vs breeding quality- which may also mean people on the waiting list wouldn't know which pup they were getting til they were a little older.
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by AZDehlin » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:50 am

Nino wrote:I havent read the thead (as I'm about to go to bed) but I am seriously considering waiting till 11 weeks of age, because I am thinking it will both give the best chance of seeing how pups will turn out, but more importantly, it will be in the end of the first "fear-period"
And I both want to socialize the pups best as possible but make sure that they aren't going to have "terrifying" events that will have impact later on.. waiting till 11 weeks of age will also insure that the pups will get the first shots and only will have to be "protected" for 1 week in their new homes before they can have their final shot and go out into the world - plus they will have extra chance of leaning how to learn doggy language, hierarchy and start a little of the training (waiting, sitting and housebreaking)..

I will probably return to the tread tomorrow to read what you other guys have written..

I have the same reasons :)

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by PawPrint » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:18 am

TerriHolt wrote: and if the person has other pets who are unsure of dogs, the sleeps a lot pup is ideal... my cats used that time to investigate, sniff and inspect because he wasn't moving about. i don't think, without that opportunity, my cats would have taken to sam too well and from 12 week onward he started sleeping less so it would have been 4 weeks less to become accustomed...
This is a very good point. A sleep-a-lot pup is probably about as close to a "gentle introduction" as you can get! Even for a cat that has had dogs in the family before those moments of stillness would be great to boost the cats confidence around the pup.

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Nino » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:31 am

Now I have read up on the tread and I have a little more to add.

If/When I breed, and if (which I am expecting to do) I keep the pups longer than the normal 8 weeks of age to the first fear period is over at 11-12 weeks of age - references: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5)

I will do this to ensure the pups the best start of their, hopefully, long and happy lives.
This means that I will do as much as possible socialization, try to let them meet as many people as possible, different situations, hoping to have a bunch of children to meet them - and people of different age, let them experience the outside of where I will be living, experience normal sounds like the vacuum, the radio, the TV, and even from very young start them on sound training with a special sound CD to make them comfortable with sounds like fireworks and gun shots.
I plan on training them from young to ride in the car, and set them up for play dates with healthy dogs that is known to be calm and patient but still firm enough to put the pups in their place firmly when stepping over the lines, and letting them meet other types of animal (I don't have a cat/s now, but I would really like to have cat/s to be able to socialize with puppies, and because they are cute lol).

Keeping them longer doesn't mean that I won't let the new owners come visit several times, maybe even to start training on their own, though I don't know at what age I will be sorting which puppy goes where.

I might send out a puppy earlier on if the new owner is one I trust will ensure a very good socialization and who have other dogs to help with the language.


All of this isn't 100% sure yet though.. I have a lot of dreams and wishes for the future :lol:
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:02 pm

see, i like 95% of the idea you got but .... i'll use my cats and sam but it could apply to many, many pets... even other dogs...

it wasn't sam that was the issue... the cats needed the times of quiet which simply would not happen letting them go so late. sam could have been accustomed to cats every day since day 1 but it wouldn't help them and a lot of people wanting to get a pup relies on the amount of quiet time between 8 weeks and... i think sam started sleeping less at 13 weeks so between 8 and 13 weeks. so any later than 8 weeks for a pup could potentially result in a unhappy house and if other animals don't come round then it's last in 1st out as harsh as it sounds but i couldn't make my current family members unhappy because i wanted a new one. i knew it would work for me because i had accounted for sam sleeping, cat coming for cuddles/investigation time (sam slept on laps... ) but if it really is making other family members unhappy then whats going to happen? if people have "out door" cats then the cat may "move out" because no one really, truely owns a cat and if it's not happy, it will leave. the people with indoor cats, the cat has no escape so it is vital that the cat has an opportunity to interact with the pup without incident.

i guess what i'm saying is even with
Nino wrote:and letting them meet other types of animal (I don't have a cat/s now, but I would really like to have cat/s to be able to socialize with puppies, and because they are cute lol).
been said, it may still not work with other pet owning people if the other pet needs chance and quiet interaction... unless you can train a 12 week old pup to not move and play statues so the other pet can investigate... because i know i wouldn't be able to introduce a 10+ week old pup into my house. they move too much... and my cats need to have a certain amount of confidence to tolerate the young whippersnapper...

i hope all that didn't come out wrong...

but i have thought about the "as a breeder" side and that would probably be never :lol:
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by MoirAran » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:59 pm

But what if you breed your dog and you have a litter of 8? How will you do that till the age of 10-12 weeks? Probably they will be able to climb out of the whelping box. If you do all the socialization. Well, you have to get them used to the leash. So you have to walk 8 pups and your own dog(s) several times a day. Getting them used to traffic.

If they are the agoe of 8-12 weeks, you can not keep them in the whelping box all the time, they will have to walk around to grow the strenght/muscle to walk.

You will have to have lots of help, and I mean lots ;)

I think I would go nuts with 8 pups in my house till the age of 12 weeks :mrgreen:
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Vajente » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:12 pm

I agree with Terri
I breed cats and I want my cats to feel safe around the dogs even with little kittens. My cats are more important to me then the dogs so if the cats don't like the dog enough the dog has to go.
I also want the pup to get to know my horses before the fear period is over cause in my experience that's the best time to teach the pup that the horses aren't something to be scared off but you do have to be carefull around them. When the dog is old enough I will take him on rides with my horse, that wouldn't be possible if the dog is affraid or isn't carefull enough.

as for the socialization, I like to do that myself, so I can teach them how to react in a situation how I want them to react.
same goes for socialization with other dogs. My mother has a dog wich she got at 11 weeks, he was the omega off the litter and his littermates picked on him. He is awfull with dogs lower in rank then him, he is fine with my GSD who dominants him but I can't leave him alone with Ravi cause he will attack without warning. It's not that he's a bad dog, he just doesn't know how to lead. I am certain that if we would have gotten him sooner, he would have bin beter with dogs.

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:48 pm

Vajente wrote:My cats are more important to me then the dogs so if the cats don't like the dog enough the dog has to go.
i wasn't saying that per se :lol: , all my animals are of equal importance which is why the younger the better as i got an attatchment to sam on the drive home it would have crushed me to give him back... but as i had the cats first i would have had no choice but to let him go...

my friend from school was on facebook, she got a lab x puppy at 15 weeks old without considering if it was suitable for the cat... i "advised" her to get an 8 week old pup (not sure if it would have helped or not) but she went with the cheapest, after a few weeks of the cat and dog fighting... i saw a "cat for sale" ad on one of the facebook selling pages... she had the cat first... we are no longer friends on facebook...

just 1 example of not been able to let the current animal get used to the new one even tho the new one lived with kids and cats, again, i'm not saying it would have helped but she went with cheaper and older so would never know... there would be many more if not allowing for that...

but i do agree with
Vajente wrote:as for the socialization, I like to do that myself, so I can teach them how to react in a situation how I want them to react.
same goes for socialization with other dogs.
a breeder can not replace the socialization with other family, members like kids, pets or surrounding's like down the street... the pup will grow to love the breeder (a lot of people say dogs don't feel emotion like "love" but i disagree... they just don't know what it is... doesn't mean they don't "feel"it) and trust the breeder so those will not be a problem but then been ripped away from mum and 2 legged mum and been placed with people pup doesn't know or trust may disrupt the socialization with new surroundings...

then again it's at breeders discretion and it's up to the adopter to decide weather they want a pup from this breeder who keeps pups for 12 -14 weeks and their living circumstances allow for it or another who keeps till 8 weeks and there fore do their own training their way and integrate the pup into their own home with their own family and pets, their own way.

it would, however, be ideal for people with no one else living with them and no other pets because they won't have to put as much effort into basic training and if thats all they were going to do then half the jobs done ;)
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Nino » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:18 pm

I see both sides.. Don't think that I haven't been thinking a LOT about this and aren't taking every little thing into consideration!
I KNOW that this will be a LOT of work, and I expect that, but see.. I also KNOW what I can do, I cannot be 100% sure of every one person that is wanting a puppy.. And I know how many people underestimate how much this socialization and this fear period can affect the rest of a dog's life, I know how much problem people can have with dogs that had unpleasant experiences in this period of their life, even though they might have experienced the same situation several times before, suddenly it can become "dangerous" and the pup will need the right kind of help to realize that it isn't what they think it is, and SO many people don't realize this, even I have (of-cause) made mistakes that I later on wish I had done different and known how to do right and these mistakes will always be in the back of the head of said dog(s).

Don't misunderstand me, I don't have as high thoughts about myself as it might sound :lol:
But I do want to do the best for the pups that I produce.. If I (or any other) cannot do so, then I (we) shouldn't breed at all. And if that means that some people will choose another breeder because they will get the pup sooner (we already know a lot of people will look over a lot of things to get a pup here and now, just see a person like R.P.K. can live from it) then that is their choice. Getting a pup from me won't be a walk on roses anyway, and I don't think I will start out with exporting with at least the first litter, unless it was someone I really trusted, thereby making it more possible to screen people, and have them visit several times before ;)

I know of lot of breeders that wait to get the pups into their new homes till they are 10-12 weeks, and their pups have no problems connecting to their new surroundings and new family, the pups might love their breeder, but that does not mean that they cannot love other people..


I really wish I could give you guys a glimpse of all the things going on in my head, you would get dizzy from it all I think :lol:
What I am saying is that I really hope that you guys don't think I am some nut for having this opinion, but that I really AM thinking about every possible scenario...
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Rahne » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:50 pm

I will be sending the pups off at 8 weeks, unless they need to stay longer for traveling. I can still remember the first 4 weeks with Konah, don't think I could do such a job with 10 of them :shock: I think they are ready at 8 weeks and need to explore things with their new owner, get all the attention for themselves and go to puppy classes. I'm sure Konah her siblings were very happy that she left at 8 weeks, good riddance :mrgreen:

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by AngieH » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:01 pm

The choice resides on both sides.

A breeder decides when to release the pups and and how he/she wants her pups to reflect on her breeding program. A pet-parrent decides when they want to pick up their pup and what attitudes they want to cultivate in the pup they rear.

If, as a pet owner, I want to get an 8 week old pup so the mother will have had time to accomplish the early dog-dog socialization and limit setting but still leave me time to accomplish the dog-person socializing according to my own philosophy, then you bet That will be part of my screening process in selecting a breeder.

If a breeder can convince me that his/her socialization is compatible with mine and doesn't interfer with the values and attitides I hope to impart to my life-companion, then I'm open to discuss it.

Just as it is a breeder's responsibility to screen prospective pet-parents, it is the responsibility of the prospective pet-parrents to screen their prospective breeder.

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:36 pm

Nino wrote: I really hope that you guys don't think I am some nut for having this opinion,
no one thinks you a nut :lol: you, as a breeder has to be comfortable about where your pups go even if those with... ummm, pets that require an adjustment period have to wait for the time being. but you also can't treat potential owners like idiots (for lack of better word) who can't raise a pup... if that makes sense... you are basically saying that people other than you are not good enough to give the pups a good start in life... yes, people do make mistakes but it is those mistakes you learn from and if you keep in contact, you can help them and guide them in the right direction...

i'm really hoping that didn't come out the wrong way :? ... sooo sorry if it did :oops:

main reason i could never become a breeder... fear of making a mistake about who they end up with... it's good you thinking about that... (and the 2nd is that i would get attached and want to keep them all :lol: ).
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Vajente » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:44 pm

TerriHolt wrote:no one thinks you a nut :lol: you, as a breeder has to be comfortable about where your pups go even if those with... ummm, pets that require an adjustment period have to wait for the time being. but you also can't treat potential owners like idiots (for lack of better word) who can't raise a pup... if that makes sense... you are basically saying that people other than you are not good enough to give the pups a good start in life... yes, people do make mistakes but it is those mistakes you learn from and if you keep in contact, you can help them and guide them in the right direction...
I agree
if you don't trust your buyers don't sell your pups

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Tiantai » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:06 pm

Vajente wrote:
TerriHolt wrote:no one thinks you a nut :lol: you, as a breeder has to be comfortable about where your pups go even if those with... ummm, pets that require an adjustment period have to wait for the time being. but you also can't treat potential owners like idiots (for lack of better word) who can't raise a pup... if that makes sense... you are basically saying that people other than you are not good enough to give the pups a good start in life... yes, people do make mistakes but it is those mistakes you learn from and if you keep in contact, you can help them and guide them in the right direction...
I agree
if you don't trust your buyers don't sell your pups
THAT I 100% AGREE!

I don't EVER want to send a pup to an apparently "nice person" only to realize that individual's true colours later on like how Ice Wind Farm tricked us only to sell the three dogs over to RPK. Obviously since those two care only about the dollar bills floating in their dream clouds they weren't going to comply with the TDR's strict policy. Still want to clobber them very badly today.
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:35 pm

One nice thing that we had happened is that just about everyone getting a pup from us has a mutual friend. What a relief this is! I have a thorough paper application process and talk with each person over the phone. Our puppy contract is going to be very strict as well.

And about the whelping box: yes, pups were getting out at 2 weeks, so we installed the half-door, and that only took us through another week. Then we had to use the full door. The whelping box is not warranted against chewing by pups at or after 5 weeks of age. They're not meant to be kept in there. At 4 weeks we moved the pups out of the whelping box and into a larger area: a very large dog crate connected to a 5' round dog play pen (wire dog exercise pen). This is in our kitchen so they are getting exposed to all kinds of things, like: the dishwasher, the disposal, the vacuum, the washing machine and dryer (because the laundry room is off the kitchen) and Ben cooking. I certainly wouldn't want 9 pups under foot, that'd make me nervous that someone would get stepped on.

Our vet here in USA is not giving initial vaccines until 8 weeks old, and has advised me to not take them anywhere until the initial vaccines have been administered. He also said absolutely no visitors until 6 weeks of age, AND don't walk Freyja because she could pick something up on the walk and give it to the pups. Adult dogs get to go in our back yard--which is fenced in--but that's it.

There are many ideas and theories about breeding and puppy care as a whole. There is more than one right answer--which for me is incredibly frustrating as a former biology student. HA! The scientist in me wants the best and only answer. LOL
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Sion » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:16 am

What an interesting topic. My wife breeds cats and they go after the second round of injections at 12 weeks - a few days after really, to check for any bad reactions. I'm so used to this set-up that I never really thought about the way it works with dogs.
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Vajente » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:50 pm

I breed cats too and they don't leave untill they are 13 weeks old but cats are completely different animals. They don't interact with people the way dogs do

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Cakesandcats » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:54 pm

Is it OK if I ask a different, but related question?

As those of you who've read my intro will be aware, I breed cats, so am famliar with when they go to their new homes etc etc and what they go with (in my case, at 12-15 weeks, neutered if not sold as breeding cats, fully vaccinated, micro-chipped, 4 weeks pet insurance, flea & worm treated and full pedigree registration papers, providing I've had them back from the registry).

I've only ever had rescue dogs before, so I've no idea what a puppy leaves a breeder with - my understanding is that they leave between 8-12 weeks and unvaccinated. Is that correct? And is there anything else I should know about getting a puppy from a breeder?

And apologies for going on about cats - it's my only frame of reference

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Nino » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:06 pm

Cakesandcats wrote:Is it OK if I ask a different, but related question?

As those of you who've read my intro will be aware, I breed cats, so am famliar with when they go to their new homes etc etc and what they go with (in my case, at 12-15 weeks, neutered if not sold as breeding cats, fully vaccinated, micro-chipped, 4 weeks pet insurance, flea & worm treated and full pedigree registration papers, providing I've had them back from the registry).

I've only ever had rescue dogs before, so I've no idea what a puppy leaves a breeder with - my understanding is that they leave between 8-12 weeks and unvaccinated. Is that correct? And is there anything else I should know about getting a puppy from a breeder?

And apologies for going on about cats - it's my only frame of reference
Here in the country the pups leaves at earliest 8 weeks of age (depending on the breeder they leave between 8 and 14 weeks of age), by law they have to be chipped by the time they leave the breeder (or before 3 months of age if they stay if I remember correctly).
A good breeder here will have given normally around 2-3 worm treatments by that time and normally the first vaccination (if they leave at 8 weeks of age - they can be vaccinated as early as 6 weeks and if they stay late enough they can have gotten 2-3 vaccinations)
"Bad" breeders don't do anything but the necessary stuff (chipping) and some don't even do this.

Now I have a question for you, would you yourself when used to the Cat way of doing it think it would be naturally that a breeder kept the dog a bit longer than the 8 weeks of age (which is the absolute minimum by law here)?
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:16 pm

Cakesandcats wrote:I've only ever had rescue dogs before, so I've no idea what a puppy leaves a breeder with - my understanding is that they leave between 8-12 weeks and unvaccinated. Is that correct? And is there anything else I should know about getting a puppy from a breeder?
It all depends on the breeder. There is quite a range of breeders, from those who will only do the bare minimum (to maximize profits) all the way to breeders who go above and beyond the general standard. The best thing to do is to ask around and see what your breeder provides with your puppy (probably best to do this before you put down a deposit).

Here you can see some information on my litters page:
http://sylvaen.com/litters.html

Incidentally, since it is relevant to the topic, my new pup (Zora) will be arriving by car when she is 13 weeks old - definitely later than usual, but I don't mind... less cleaning up for me to do! ;)
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Taz » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:35 pm

Another apparent difference between dog and cat breeders, is the attitude towards early castration. From cat breeders I've come across, it seems the standard to have non potential breeding cats done before they leave them. It's been mentioned on this thread too.

On the other hand, I wouldn't touch a breeder of dogs, who would do that to young pups.

But as has already been said, cats and dogs, are two entirely different species.
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Misaya » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:47 pm

Taz wrote:Another apparent difference between dog and cat breeders, is the attitude towards early castration. From cat breeders I've come across, it seems the standard to have non potential breeding cats done before they leave them.
When I got my first two cats as kittens, I am sure the vet recommended neutering when they were around six months. I got them when they were 12 weeks old, brother and sister. They are moggies and didnt come from a breeder as such, just a friend.
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Tiantai » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:50 pm

Taz wrote:Another apparent difference between dog and cat breeders, is the attitude towards early castration. From cat breeders I've come across, it seems the standard to have non potential breeding cats done before they leave them. It's been mentioned on this thread too.

On the other hand, I wouldn't touch a breeder of dogs, who would do that to young pups.

But as has already been said, cats and dogs, are two entirely different species.
Yeah, I don't think it's actually appropriate to compare cat breeders with dog breeders either. Felines and canines are completely different and thus you'll always have different breeding standards for both species. Although the quality of the environment of which pups and cubs are bred in should still share a common ground, a clean home, dam is in a comfortable nursing spot and NOT in a cage, breeding pairs should be health tested prior to being mated, don't let the male into the nursing room especially while the mother is there (though this is usually more serious with cats than dogs) until the babies are more mature and capable of walking and have him supervised when he's there, and basically keep in close contact with the mother so that she doesn't stress out while looking after the newborn. Some of general stuff is the same for both species, but other than that, there is a lot of differences like you said.
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Cakesandcats » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:41 am

Nino wrote: Now I have a question for you, would you yourself when used to the Cat way of doing it think it would be naturally that a breeder kept the dog a bit longer than the 8 weeks of age (which is the absolute minimum by law here)?
Hmmmm, that's an interesting one.... with cats I know it makes a difference how they're raised by the breeder - I've got one that wasn't socialised as well as the rest of my gang and, although we've had him for over two years now, he's still much more shy and reserved than the others. I think the way a puppy is socialised is even more important - at the end of the day, with a shy cat they can quite happily spend their life seeing no one but the people and animals they live with, whereas with a dog you are always going to come into contact with strange people and dogs....

I think that if you're getting a puppy from a breeder you've got to know and trust, then part of that trust is that you have to believe they will a) have the puppy's best interests at heart and b) socialise the puppy properly. If you don't trust them to do this, then I'd question whether you should be getting a dog from them....

That may sound a bit harsh, but from my experience in the cat world, if I breeder I was buying from suggested that the kitten I was getting would benefit from staying with their mum a couple of weeks longer, then I'd trust their judgement, as I would have made sure I'd got to know them and their breeding practices before I chose them as a breeder to buy from......

So I guess my answer is yes, I would be happy to get a puppy later than 8 weeks as I'd expect the breeder to invest the time in socialising him/her properly, in the same way we invest the time in socialising our kittens (and I currently have hands covered in scratches from tiny claws as proof of this ;) ).

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Nino » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:36 am

Cakesandcats wrote:
Nino wrote: Now I have a question for you, would you yourself when used to the Cat way of doing it think it would be naturally that a breeder kept the dog a bit longer than the 8 weeks of age (which is the absolute minimum by law here)?
So I guess my answer is yes, I would be happy to get a puppy later than 8 weeks as I'd expect the breeder to invest the time in socialising him/her properly, in the same way we invest the time in socialising our kittens (and I currently have hands covered in scratches from tiny claws as proof of this ;) ).
I thought you would say so - cause I agree very much with your point of view on this subject :roll:

I think many new owners only see the "I will miss some of the cute puppy age if I get it later and therefore I wouldn't want one later than 8 weeks".

If I was getting a pup from a breeder (whom I trusted) and he/she explained that that he/she wished to keep the litter till they were (and now I really stretch it) just over 4 months so they could not only be socialized enough, but also have gotten their shots, including rabies, started puppy class, are well in the process of being clean and most importantly have gotten tested for bad Hips* - to ensure that the pup I got home is as healthy as possible, so that I won't have to go through having a sick puppy that I have to pay thousands of dollars for health expenses and have to part with in a much too young age, but would let live as long as possible because I had already fallen in love with it.
I would trust this breeder even more than if they just shipped out the pups at 8 weeks of age, barely chipped, not having started any kind of training (including house training) and with no shots.
I would much rather get a pup 2 months later, with all the right shots, training started and be sure that the hips were okay and have a great 13+ years with the dog, missing out on that "cute and annoying age" :roll:

*PennHip can test as young as 4 months of age and as far as I know should be fairly accurate
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Vajente » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:58 am

Nino wrote:I think many new owners only see the "I will miss some of the cute puppy age if I get it later and therefore I wouldn't want one later than 8 weeks".
that's not my reason, Ik actually don't really like pups. I would rather have an adult dog right away. I want to 'shape' the pup to my ways as soon as possible.

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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:35 pm

Vajente wrote:
Nino wrote:I think many new owners only see the "I will miss some of the cute puppy age if I get it later and therefore I wouldn't want one later than 8 weeks".
that's not my reason, Ik actually don't really like pups. I would rather have an adult dog right away. I want to 'shape' the pup to my ways as soon as possible.
also not my reason but mine has been stated :mrgreen: but it's also for my kids to get used to the pup while it's quite, before all the bouncing and stuff begins so they get their excitement out the way (bouncy dog and excited kids don't mix too well)... not to mention, everyone has different rules and commands they use, some are likely to clash...

i would actually prefer an already house trained, injected, socialized, health checked, half way to 1 yr old pup... but to do things your own way as to not confuse the dog it's necessary to do things the way you want it done from the beginning...

i mean, how would you teach the pup with cats?, rabbit's? ducks (there are ducks near where i live)? living with kids (there is a difference between living with and kids visiting)? some people want their pup to be ok with horses or any other large live stock that could be a potential danger if handled wrong... there are just some things you can't teach your self and it could prove difficult for the new owner and may result in brokenheartedly giving back the pup/dog...

you would need to know if the new owner wants the dog to need a crate or not... if you crate train then the dog will want to keep that and may get unsettled if it is taken away by the owner not wanting one... or if all of them did, would you have room for up to possibly 10 crates in your house if the owner wants crate training?

it would be ideal in many, many ways but not practical in more... the basic been that the pup needs to adapt to the home it will be living in and spending it's whole life in as soon as possible and the later it gets there, the more of a challenge it will be.

but the scenario you have in mind would suit a home with no other pets or kids, no wild life and one of these people who work so many hours and wouldn't have time to do the basic training like house training, recall, walking, and commands...
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Taz » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:42 pm

Interesting thread

My concern with getting a pup at say, 11 weeks, would be that it's mid fear period. My other concern would be a large litter size, and wether the breeder can give every puppy, enough individual attention.
Not every pup will learn at the same rate, some may need more time to grasp house training, or take longer to learn not to be afraid of something, as examples.

There's also the breed to consider, for breeds with the potential for a strong guarding instinct, early socialisation with strangers, in, around and out of the home environment is critical.
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Nino » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:42 pm

TerriHolt wrote:also not my reason but mine has been stated :mrgreen: but it's also for my kids to get used to the pup while it's quite, before all the bouncing and stuff begins so they get their excitement out the way (bouncy dog and excited kids don't mix too well)... not to mention, everyone has different rules and commands they use, some are likely to clash...

i would actually prefer an already house trained, injected, socialized, health checked, half way to 1 yr old pup... but to do things your own way as to not confuse the dog it's necessary to do things the way you want it done from the beginning...

i mean, how would you teach the pup with cats?, rabbit's? ducks (there are ducks near where i live)? living with kids (there is a difference between living with and kids visiting)? some people want their pup to be ok with horses or any other large live stock that could be a potential danger if handled wrong... there are just some things you can't teach your self and it could prove difficult for the new owner and may result in brokenheartedly giving back the pup/dog...

you would need to know if the new owner wants the dog to need a crate or not... if you crate train then the dog will want to keep that and may get unsettled if it is taken away by the owner not wanting one... or if all of them did, would you have room for up to possibly 10 crates in your house if the owner wants crate training?

it would be ideal in many, many ways but not practical in more... the basic been that the pup needs to adapt to the home it will be living in and spending it's whole life in as soon as possible and the later it gets there, the more of a challenge it will be.

but the scenario you have in mind would suit a home with no other pets or kids, no wild life and one of these people who work so many hours and wouldn't have time to do the basic training like house training, recall, walking, and commands...
I see all of your concerns - I really do, but that is why we chose specific breeders isn't it?
I'm not saying this is just 1,2,3 and magic now it's done, it might not be Ideal to everyone of cause nothing but raising a pup from birth to pup into your own home is actually ideal i think, I'm just saying that this is how I would prefer it, how I would choose my pup if I could choose.

Some day I would like to be able to breed, and I would love to say that I had all planned out down to the slightest detail, but I don't think that's possible before actually having tried it at least once.
I think "you" need to "shape" these things so they fit what you wish to do the best way - I think there will always be people agreeing with you :)
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:11 pm

I'll tell you what--after raising our first litter of 9 puppies, I CANNOT imagine keeping them all until 12 weeks old. We would need an addition on our kitchen. Cleaning up after the pups was a full time job for my husband. And at 8 weeks they all start to bite and chew. They need individual attention at that point and my husband couldn't keep up with all of the other work, so forget training 9 puppies. I remember going into the kitchen and them mobbing my pj bottoms so that I couldn't walk! Our kitchen was non-functioning, basically :D haha! Maybe for other breeds, but I can't imagine keeping Tamaskan Dogs past 8 weeks.
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Tiantai » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:34 pm

Hawthorne wrote:I'll tell you what--after raising our first litter of 9 puppies, I CANNOT imagine keeping them all until 12 weeks old. We would need an addition on our kitchen. Cleaning up after the pups was a full time job for my husband. And at 8 weeks they all start to bite and chew. They need individual attention at that point and my husband couldn't keep up with all of the other work, so forget training 9 puppies. I remember going into the kitchen and them mobbing my pj bottoms so that I couldn't walk! Our kitchen was non-functioning, basically :D haha! Maybe for other breeds, but I can't imagine keeping Tamaskan Dogs past 8 weeks.
I can tell, Ben looked pretty tired when I was watching him cleaning up on the ustream one evening and was like "I wish I can jump through this monitor and help you a little". But you both made it through and we're all proud of you for that ;) How is Freyja doing now?
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Re: what age to send pups home

Post by Nino » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:24 pm

Maybe one should Ask Pete Saxon how it is.. they still have 5 pups left.. they are a couple of weeks short of 4 months now.. :lol:
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