Discussion about Breeder Reviews

All topics pertaining to mating and whelping, as well as upcoming / planned litters.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Tiantai » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:52 pm

Yeah I recommend the BVA over the OFFA as well. They're more accurate in my opinion.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Nino » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:19 am

You might have misunderstood me, I didn't mean that I wanted to use OFFA but that I wish that BVA had a database too..

0-18 BVA is equal A1, A2 and B1 on the FCI standard.. I could easily work with the FCI standard, but I do like the idea of BVA since they check both hips and give them an individual score..
Never cared much for the OFFA way..
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by arianwenarie » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:49 am

Nino wrote:You might have misunderstood me, I didn't mean that I wanted to use OFFA but that I wish that BVA had a database too..

0-18 BVA is equal A1, A2 and B1 on the FCI standard.. I could easily work with the FCI standard, but I do like the idea of BVA since they check both hips and give them an individual score..
Never cared much for the OFFA way..
Yes, that is the message I got - I also wish the BVA had a database too. I'm assuming the TDR is keeping the rule that states BVA will be used as the official hip scoring scheme?

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:40 am

arianwenarie wrote:I'm assuming the TDR is keeping the rule that states BVA will be used as the official hip scoring scheme?

Would make sense if it gives better quality results... No point giving up quality for transparency... Just going to have to trust the breeders of the future... maybe make a rule to send in hip results? (unless thats already in place and i missed it Image)
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Rahne » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 am

TerriHolt wrote:
arianwenarie wrote:I'm assuming the TDR is keeping the rule that states BVA will be used as the official hip scoring scheme?
Would make sense if it gives better quality results... No point giving up quality for transparency... Just going to have to trust the breeders of the future... maybe make a rule to send in hip results? (unless thats already in place and i missed it Image)
There was already a rule to send in copies of hip results. BUT Jennie was the one who kept all the records, as the only person, so no one got to see their own dogs records...

From now on breeders will have to send in copies of their dogs hip results to me and I will forward it to two other people (outside of the TDR committee) so it's not just one person anymore keeping all records. Results will be listed in the public database.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Karen » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:04 am

I am soo not up to date with this whole hipscoring BVA versus OfA.
We use Norberg in the NL... And that gives the opposite result of BVA. If you get a total score of under 30 ( both hips added ) you have a problem.
so, makes it a bit confusing for me. Got a real scare the first time I saw the hip scores! :lol:

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Nahani » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:06 am

Much better system thanks Rahne, look forward to seeing them all online too....but I don't envy your workload! Thanks for all of your work, again!
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:08 am

Yes, that does work out for a much better system...
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Nino » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:46 pm

:lol: Karen!
I can only imagine that was a scare!!

I'm used to FCI standard.. That comes naturally to me as A always being good and B being fine while C was rather high (a C dog wouldn't even be allowed to breed in the TDR)

Just remember everything from 18 and under is acceptable and the lower the better
+ a high scored one should never be bred to another high scored one :)
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:49 pm

Nino wrote:You might have misunderstood me, I didn't mean that I wanted to use OFFA but that I wish that BVA had a database too..

0-18 BVA is equal A1, A2 and B1 on the FCI standard.. I could easily work with the FCI standard, but I do like the idea of BVA since they check both hips and give them an individual score..
Never cared much for the OFFA way..
I didn't think you meant that...but perhaps this is relevant to another post about having an outside registering body be involved. That way, scores are sent directly to the 3rd party registry and nothing could be falsified. Just a thought.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by torriarno » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:37 pm

BVA are good and do give you the certificate of course.....I got to see ranns xrays and the vet was most pleased with them...Its for the stud dog owner to show their certificate to an incoming mating bitch...as with other health ....etc.....I would say ..that they could be made available to people to advetise their dogs and bitchs after their registered names..etc....I thought the average Tamaskan hip mean score was 19....so one has to be strict...etc ...
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Hawthorne » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:42 pm

I'm not sure how often the mean score is updated (maybe once a year?) but the data is posted on the BVA website. It can be found here:

http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/B ... s_2012.pdf
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by arianwenarie » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:12 pm

Hawthorne wrote:I'm not sure how often the mean score is updated (maybe once a year?) but the data is posted on the BVA website. It can be found here:

http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/B ... s_2012.pdf
There's a little blurb at the bottom of the report:
The Breed Mean Score (BMS) represents a global mean of the scores of all dogs of that breed that have been through the Hip Dysplasia Scheme up until 31st October 2011. The Median Score has been calculated from data recorded on the Kennel Club’s electronic registration database, up until 31st October 2011. The 5-year mean is the mean of all hip scores recorded on the Kennel Club’s registration database for the recent 5 year period.
Therefore, yes, I would assume that the BMS is updated every year.

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Re: Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:46 pm

Does anyone know the pedigree of the adult dogs at Puppies by Ratliff? Do they have "real" Tams or are they the mixes that RPK has produced?
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Re: Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by Tiantai » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:19 pm

Hawthorne wrote:Does anyone know the pedigree of the adult dogs at Puppies by Ratliff? Do they have "real" Tams or are they the mixes that RPK has produced?
For the pedigrees I don't know if anyone has any. Not to sound rude but even if some of the RPK dog owners do have copies, I question how reliable they are.
As far back as I can remember, someone on facebook PMed me two years ago that Ratliff's breeding dogs all come from RPK (that I believe) and that although most of them have Tamaskans in them such as Moose, Tasha, and Tundra, it's possible that the ones he has now are still (obviously unregistered) pure Tamaskans but I won't rule out the possibility that some are mutts mixed with other dogs that RPK might have outcrossed but I don't know for sure so don't take my word for it. When I look at some photos of "Ratliff dogs" owned by some of the RPK dog owners (not listing their names here) I do think that most of them look more Tamaskan-like then some of the dogs at RPK that were outcrossed with Tumble.
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Re: Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by Katlin » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:10 am

One female is from Shadow X Moose, the other is from Tundra X Moose according to Kevin.
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Re: Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by arianwenarie » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:30 am

Katlin wrote:One female is from Shadow X Moose, the other is from Tundra X Moose according to Kevin.
Any info on Timber's ancestry...?

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Re: Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by Katlin » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:10 am

I'll see what I can get for you...
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Re: Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by Hawthorne » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:09 pm

Tiantai wrote:
Hawthorne wrote:Does anyone know the pedigree of the adult dogs at Puppies by Ratliff? Do they have "real" Tams or are they the mixes that RPK has produced?
For the pedigrees I don't know if anyone has any. Not to sound rude but even if some of the RPK dog owners do have copies, I question how reliable they are.
As far back as I can remember, someone on facebook PMed me two years ago that Ratliff's breeding dogs all come from RPK (that I believe) and that although most of them have Tamaskans in them such as Moose, Tasha, and Tundra, it's possible that the ones he has now are still (obviously unregistered) pure Tamaskans but I won't rule out the possibility that some are mutts mixed with other dogs that RPK might have outcrossed but I don't know for sure so don't take my word for it. When I look at some photos of "Ratliff dogs" owned by some of the RPK dog owners (not listing their names here) I do think that most of them look more Tamaskan-like then some of the dogs at RPK that were outcrossed with Tumble.
Yes, I know. This is why I ask.
I've had some folks ask what the difference is between my dogs and Puppies by Ratliff dogs. If Puppies by Ratliff aren't Tamaskan, but American Tamaskan--then there's the difference! (and I'm speaking technically, here--no emotion involved. I know that we could all have a disagreement about this. That's not what I'm getting at.) And I have pointed out the differences in registry, urged folks to check into health testing, etc. But the bottom line is that some folks just see $$, and RPK and Puppies by Ratliff are cheaper than I am. Too bad. I'm not Wal-Mart. I won't price match. If you want a bargain dog, go adopt at the pound. :D
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Re: Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by Tiantai » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:33 pm

Well I believe all the drama has already been exposed in the Scams and Warnings section so while I do see a mild bit of drama here in the Breeder's review section I don't think it's necessary to get to deep into that here either.

Offtopic
Hawthorne wrote: I'm not Wal-Mart. I won't price match. If you want a bargain dog, go adopt at the pound. :D
That I can help some people with if they live in Toronto or anywhere close to the GTA. I occasionally keep up to date with several local shelters once every two month and it never cease to surprise how many of the same dogs have been stuck there for a long time. If anyone near me is looking for a dog of any of the common breeds or just any dog, I can help them get in touch with the shelters. ;)

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Re: Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by Eventide » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:49 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
Katlin wrote:One female is from Shadow X Moose, the other is from Tundra X Moose according to Kevin.
Any info on Timber's ancestry...?
I just today asked on FB if anyone knoew of a Tamaskan named Timber living in Maryland. I asked because my dog trainer told me she has another Tamaskan dog in one of her classes named Timber. I won't mention the owner's name because I haven't spoken with them yet but I did ask her to share my email address with them as I'd like for us to meet her Tam.

Now, I have no idea if this is a puppy, older dog, male/female, or even a registered Tamaskan, at this time.
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Re: Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by RoyAM » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:51 am

The Kennel Club of the UK have a "Accredited Breeder Scheme", I have never favoured the kennel club due to the dog shows and due to encouraging breeders to breed Alaskan Malamutes from big strong sledge pulling, weight pulling dogs and reducing them to "fluffy toy poodles" But I have to endorse what they have done with the "Accredited Breeder Scheme".

I know they do not recognise the Tamaskan as a breed but I am sure if you write to them they will forward "Accredited Breeder Scheme" packs, all the info in these packs directs breeders not only to be good breeders but to excel in the scheme. I purchased one of my Malamutes from a lady in this scheme and her care for her dogs was amazing, she also had countless numbers of recomendations from others. Breeders under this scheme ensure the best start for your puppy, ensuring health, feeding, identification - DNA profiling, petlog, training, activities, insurance, travel sickness, anaesthetic, castration & spaying, various info on fleas, ticks & worming, vaccine program, hereditary tests, intolerances & poisonous foods, and breed specific information for the specific breed you have purchased. This may be worth a consideration for potential breeders.

Also remember HIP scoring, eye tests, DNA records etc can be doctor'd (changed) by cash inclined breeders, do not take the word of the breeder without carrying out further background checks yourself and at the end of the day once you have your puppy regardless of the health of the puppy, ensure it is given the most comfortable happy life you can give it.

Would you get rid of a 2 year old dog with a high hip score or bad eye test? if so, you shouldnt be looking for a pet, once a puppy comes home, it is part of your family same as a daughter or son, would you get rid of your daughter or son if they ended up in a wheelchair?

think about it!

should this be here or in the rambling section?

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Re: Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by HiTenshi16 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:50 pm

Well said Roy!
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Re: Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by Tiantai » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:42 pm

I agree completely, the Kennel club has f***ed up so many dogs in the past. I was shocked when I learnt about the case with the over-grown long fluffball Pekingese with severe breathing difficulties if memory serves me correctly. That is definitely NOT how the breed is supposed to look like and I was very outrage that they almost indirectly promoted that faulty coat for the breed by making that male the winner!
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Re: Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:59 pm

Tiantai wrote: I was shocked when I learnt about the case with the over-grown long fluffball Pekingese with severe breathing difficulties if memory serves me correctly.
The one that won "best of show" and had to sit on an ice pack after parading round so it didn't over heat... Yes, a lot have been messed up. It's quicker to break something than it is to fix it... A lot of the breeders refuse to change standard to make it better too.
I have heard the KC have started taking steps to fix the mistakes but it's going to take a long time and a lot of suffering in the process...
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One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

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Re: Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:32 pm

The bottom line is: the dog should be able to make it from point A to point B effectively, efficiently and without pain. Wether point A is the couch and point B is the water bowl, or point A is the parking lot and point B is the wilderness loge is immaterial. We should all strive to create healthy, well structured dogs.
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bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
lick like there's no end to kissing
sleep on a sofa nearby
jump like the sky is the limit
sit by the fire with friends
stay with the ones who love you
run like the road never ends

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