Discussion about Breeder Reviews

All topics pertaining to mating and whelping, as well as upcoming / planned litters.
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Discussion about Breeder Reviews

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:15 pm

With regard to public input, there needs to be a new system in place to ensure a greater degree of transparency so that potential puppy purchasers can make up their own minds as to which breeder is right for them. Up until now, it was assumed that all TDR breeders must uphold the same basic standard and, thus, that one TDR registered breeder is much like any other. However, in reality, there is great discrepancy between TDR registered breeders: some go above and beyond the standard protocol with regard to customer service, others focus on health testing and full disclosure of pedigrees, others aim to breed dogs with a superior appearance while others focus more on temperament, meanwhile some breeders are very 'new' while others have a wealth of experience spanning several decades. Moreover, in an ideal world, all breeders would uphold their own standards but sometimes that just isn't possible - life changes can also have a big influence, which in turn, can affect the development of puppies (and the environment in which they are raised).

The best way to approach this situation is by means of Breeder Reviews (here on the forum) to ensure a fair, honest and objective analysis of each registered breeder. Individual breeders (and their breeding practices) can be discussed, in public, with individual members (puppy purchasers, other breeders, etc) providing feedback about their experiences with that breeder (good AND bad). This also provides each breeder with the opportunity to defend themselves in public (if necessary) and quash potential rumors before they get out of hand. It also allows each breeder to acknowledge criticisms and take them into account (constructively) so that changes can be made in accordance - unless breeders KNOW there are problems (particularly with regard to public perception) nothing will change for the better. Lately there has been a lot of 'badmouthing' going on in private (via emails and PMs) which may or may not be 'justified' (depending on the situation) but it is simply not constructive. It only serves to fuel negative energy (spreading rumor and gossip) instead of asking the breeder about it directly and discussing it all in public so that potential puppy purchasers can make up their own minds. This system will allow positive progression as we will be working WITH breeders to help them improve their practices, rather than immediately kicking them out to the curb. Some breeders may very well break the rules for their own personal gain, but it will all be presented in public and nothing will be kept hidden.

A few have suggested that this is 'letting off' breeders 'too lightly' when they break the rules - but I beg to differ. Reputation is everything in the dog breeding world... in particular, it determines which breeder a puppy purchaser will go to. Reviews (good and bad) make a world of difference to anyone who aims to run a successful business. With regard to dog breeding, Breeder Reviews also allow for comparisons to be made between 'hobby' breeders that have one litter every few years, and commercial breeders that have multiple litters every few months. Commercial breeding doesn't necessarily imply quantity over quality (sometimes just the opposite is true: with years of experience resulting in healthy, balanced puppies while new breeders may find themselves totally out of their depth with the puppies suffering as a result). Ultimately, it is a mistake for the public to believe that all TDR registered breeders are exactly identical. As a result of this review process, the breeders themselves will have to take note of criticism and make changes in response if they want to stay in 'business'. This system allows for mutual cooperation and growth / change / adaptation, rather than simply reinforcing the concept that "if you're with the TDR, you're automatically a good breeder" - the whole idea of 'good' is entirely subjective and relative. It is only by sharing experiences and opinions that we can start to get a better idea of each breeder's pros and cons.

Above all else, this must take place in public - there has already been too much going on in private, behind the scenes, with gossip and rumor spreading like wildfire, instead of open and honest discussions / debates. More transparency will only help the breed to succeed. If this is all taking place out in public, breeders will have to live with the consequences of their actions. The focus will no longer be on a select group of individuals, but on the whole Tamaskan Community worldwide, working together as a team with other owners and breeders providing valuable input.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:31 pm

I myself would welcome this discussion. For us personally, this would be beneficial because we are new to dog breeding. We are learning as we go, and I admit that, and there's always room for improvement. I think this will be valuable as well because it may help other potential breeders determine some sort of protocol for how they will raise their pups. I would love to hear what other breeders are doing--both for what works and what doesn't work.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by JulieSmith » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:19 pm

What about a rating system for each breeder, could the poll option be used? Can you see results before voting yourself? 1 - 3 terrible, ok or wonderful, that way someone could leave a rating without having to write a comment, not everyone likes writing reviews. Although the suggestion would be that if you picked 1 or 3 they should leave a short reason why, bad practice to be improved or good practice to be copied, also negative votes do not mean much without explanation, but it would give buyers a quick view to see who is rated better.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by TeresaC » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:32 pm

This is a great idea. While new to breeding, I am not new to dogs. My experience has been in training and behavior. I think our experiences and focus will tend to change how we approach the breed, our breeding practices, and our placement of puppies and dogs into homes.

Feedback will allow all of us to learn from our "customers" and each other.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Dallas » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:33 pm

JulieSmith wrote:What about a rating system for each breeder, could the poll option be used? Can you see results before voting yourself? 1 - 3 terrible, ok or wonderful, that way someone could leave a rating without having to write a comment, not everyone likes writing reviews. Although the suggestion would be that if you picked 1 or 3 they should leave a short reason why, bad practice to be improved or good practice to be copied, also negative votes do not mean much without explanation, but it would give buyers a quick view to see who is rated better.
thats what I was thinking about. I know that some people on here wouldn't leave a negative comment because they would be worried about the reaction of the breeder. So a few polls would be a great idea imo.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Finn1 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:41 pm

One of my complaints about this forum in the past has been that individuals have been trying to make their voice heard about problems with their breeder on the forum. I have never wanted to hear all of that as I have always believed that complaints should be between the seller and the buyer. The fact that they have had to go public seems fair enough now, given what we have learnt, as they have not been able to get any satisfaction by challenging individuals. I can see what you are trying to do in rating the breeder but that may only lead to more slanging matches when things go wrong. In my world at work we do customer satisfaction tables. Customers are asked to complete questionairres on stuff such as a pre sale and after sale service that is then rated and comments for improvements are collected (customers can also be kept anonymous which allows for a more open score). If we were to adopt something similar then it would create a 'league table' this would then encourage breeders to do the very best that they can (as a bit of healthy competitiion never did anyone any harm). We would also be measuring each breeder from a common ground and exceptional 'complaints' should be dealt with by the TDR and not necessarily in a public arena.

I would be happy to help set something of this nature up for you if people feel this would be a fairer measure. We could also award points for value for money for example if your pup comes from Saxon he/she comes with a full passport and innoculations which is a great deal when you compare with other breeeders and prices. Firstly we would need to understand what everyone values in terms of buying a pup and the measures could be drawn from that. I hope that makes some sense. :D

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by nivenj » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:51 pm

Finn1 wrote:One of my complaints about this forum in the past has been that individuals have been trying to make their voice heard about problems with their breeder on the forum. I have never wanted to hear all of that as I have always believed that complaints should be between the seller and the buyer. The fact that they have had to go public seems fair enough now, given what we have learnt, as they have not been able to get any satisfaction by challenging individuals. I can see what you are trying to do in rating the breeder but that may only lead to more slanging matches when things go wrong. In my world at work we do customer satisfaction tables. Customers are asked to complete questionairres on stuff such as a pre sale and after sale service that is then rated and comments for improvements are collected (customers can also be kept anonymous which allows for a more open score). If we were to adopt something similar then it would create a 'league table' this would then encourage breeders to do the very best that they can (as a bit of healthy competitiion never did anyone any harm). We would also be measuring each breeder from a common ground and exceptional 'complaints' should be dealt with by the TDR and not necessarily in a public arena.

I would be happy to help set something of this nature up for you if people feel this would be a fairer measure. We could also award points for value for money for example if your pup comes from Saxon he/she comes with a full passport and innoculations which is a great deal when you compare with other breeeders and prices. Firstly we would need to understand what everyone values in terms of buying a pup and the measures could be drawn from that. I hope that makes some sense. :D
I think this is a fantastic idea and is yet again another example of where we can show complete transparency. We would need some safegaurds in place to ensure only genuine feedback is left so as to not adversely affect a Breeder in either a positive or negative manner by maliscousness or self promotion, but thats something that can be worked through I am sure.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:13 pm

Just a quick thought for other breeders out there:

We created a private FB group for our litter. It's a place where the puppy families can post photos, share stories and give advice. We are a pretty tight knit group--it's pretty neat! I think it really helps with a sense of community and folks feel like they haven't just been "cut loose" with their pup--that there's a real support system in place for them. I know that's what the forum is for, but sometimes having a private place to ask questions is nice, too. I take my role as a breeder seriously, and this is just one additional way to help our extended family. They can of course always email or call me, too. :D But we do share scary and bad stories on there as well. I think there's a different level of comfort in a closed group.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:34 pm

Hawthorne wrote:Just a quick thought for other breeders out there:

We created a private FB group for our litter. It's a place where the puppy families can post photos, share stories and give advice. We are a pretty tight knit group--it's pretty neat! I think it really helps with a sense of community and folks feel like they haven't just been "cut loose" with their pup--that there's a real support system in place for them. I know that's what the forum is for, but sometimes having a private place to ask questions is nice, too. I take my role as a breeder seriously, and this is just one additional way to help our extended family. They can of course always email or call me, too. :D But we do share scary and bad stories on there as well. I think there's a different level of comfort in a closed group.

I like this idea and I think I will be doing this when it comes time that I am ready to breed.



On another note:

Didn't the TDR have a system where breeders would be be listed as Platinum, Gold, Silver, Bronze depending on what standards they had on breeding and health testing? I liked this system... Maybe we could revise what specifications are required for each medal and then it could be posted on the TDR site as well as breeders may post it on their own site?

I also think when you buy a puppy you should get a questionnaire that can be fill out be and forward on the TDR Committee... then a satisfaction percent can also be posted next to what medal... this could be a lot of work though, so maybe it could factor into what medal the breeder gets.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by morningstar » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:46 pm

I think this is a great idea - when breeding any animal reputation is everything - lots of breeder circles want people to either keep their disputes between the seller and breeder, which in some ways is good, but in other cases its good that people have a chance to say when something has gone wrong, if the breeder solves said problem then their reputation shouldn't be harmed by that but if they do not help the buyer etc etc - I think its fair that people should know that they are not as responsible or as good as they appear.

Having a poll is a very good way to do this -but I feel people need to give a reason why they picked 'positive' or 'negative' feedback -otherwise someone with a grudge could be nasty and try to ruin someone's good name.

All new breeders should be given a 'positive' reputation unless they prove themselves otherwise.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Nino » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:51 pm

I think the idea of reviewing the breeders is good, but I think this is one that we can cool for a while since it is not of utmost urgency..
I have some ideas on how to make this work, while taking it off the forum (as I don't think here is the right place to do such a thing) and making it maybe more reliable and people not finding that they risk "bashing" by telling their opinion.
But I will have to work it out exactly how in my head, but I have a good outline that I think people might like..
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Asvodian » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:02 pm

Nino wrote:I think the idea of reviewing the breeders is good, but I think this is one that we can cool for a while since it is not of utmost urgency..
I have some ideas on how to make this work, while taking it off the forum (as I don't think here is the right place to do such a thing) and making it maybe more reliable and people not finding that they risk "bashing" by telling their opinion.
But I will have to work it out exactly how in my head, but I have a good outline that I think people might like..
why not provide some sample questions for people to answer about how their experience was with their breeder. that way everyone has something that they can start off sharing about it if they feel comfortable doing so

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by JulieSmith » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:36 pm

What about something like eBay? You can rate by using stars for a few criteria and leave a short comment, the seller then can make a reply, I would suggest that no other comments are allowed any further dispute is then between the breeder and purchaser and the TDR committee if they can not sort it out themselves. Once sorted admin could add an update, that would stop it getting into a long argument.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by MelB » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:44 pm

I think a star system or simple questionnaire on their own are very limited and could be worded in such a way that certain topics could be omitted or glossed over. Even ebay allows brief comments.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:50 pm

JulieSmith wrote:What about something like eBay? You can rate by using stars for a few criteria and leave a short comment, the seller then can make a reply, I would suggest that no other comments are allowed any further dispute is then between the breeder and purchaser and the TDR committee if they can not sort it out themselves. Once sorted admin could add an update, that would stop it getting into a long argument.
This is what I was thinking with my post... And a percentage would be calculated on the stars you gave....

I would also think that all dogs before this wold not get to give a review... that it will only be any litter born after this takes effect?

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by arianwenarie » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:54 pm

AZDehlin wrote:I would also think that all dogs before this wold not get to give a review... that it will only be any litter born after this takes effect?
I am on the fence with that seeing as the past reputation of a breeder has a direct influence on the future.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:23 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:I would also think that all dogs before this wold not get to give a review... that it will only be any litter born after this takes effect?
I am on the fence with that seeing as the past reputation of a breeder has a direct influence on the future.
I just worry some may change there mind of a good experience after the recent stuff came to light. I think with everything else starting a new this should too.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Tiantai » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:30 am

Good to see that the transition is underway and the light at the end of the creepy tunnel is becoming a lot brighter :D
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by muensterland » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:00 am

Hi together
Why don't you think about a breed attendant? Minimum one each country.
In Germany, every dog-association has a breeding attendants. He checks every breeder before they get their first litter. He checks also the environment and the KNOWLEDGE of the breeder.
He must check each litter. He looks at the puppies and the environment in which they grow up.
Breed attendants should be appointed by the Comittee as they have a great responsibility.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Ciaobella » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:03 am

malinois wrote:Hi together
Why don't you think about a breed attendant? Minimum one each country.
In Germany, every dog-association has a breeding attendants. He checks every breeder before they get their first litter. He checks also the environment and the KNOWLEDGE of the breeder.
He must check each litter. He looks at the puppies and the environment in which they grow up.
Breed attendants should be appointed by the Comittee as they have a great responsibility.

Best wishes....Karsten
This is a really good idea.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Booma » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:25 am

This is a good idea, but may not work in large places like America, Canada, the UK. I would like to breed in the future, but there would be Noone here to visit me, only give me online support (unless they wanna jump on a plane to visit- but that would be pretty costly)
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by JulieSmith » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:11 am

AZDehlin wrote:
arianwenarie wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:I would also think that all dogs before this wold not get to give a review... that it will only be any litter born after this takes effect?
I am on the fence with that seeing as the past reputation of a breeder has a direct influence on the future.
I just worry some may change there mind of a good experience after the recent stuff came to light. I think with everything else starting a new this should too.
I think this should be a fresh start as well. Each breeder could start with an award, bronze, silver, gold or new. All breeders start on silver (except those who have mot had a litter yet they start on new) unless they have had lots of complaints then they get bronze after that the ratings are used to decide the award.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by jraloff » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:39 am

I like the idea of a rating system with set criteria (ie level of health testing etc) as proposed by Katelyn (sorry I couldn't get the quote feature to work on my iPad - newbie on posting).

I don't think that relying on breeder reputation and online (or otherwise obtained) survey/review is adequate. There are some very charismatic folks out there that can be highly manipulative.

While I don't think it would necessarily be fair to retrospectively enforce sanctions I do think that it is very important that there be minimal criteria set forth for a breeder to maintain "approved breeder" status. This should include a code of ethics, appropriate health maintenance & testing of the animals etc. If a breeder/kennel is found to be in violation then sanctions could be imposed. These could range from a fine to temporary suspension to permanent expulsion. It would definitely take some work up front to develop the criteria & a mechanism for formal complaint and complaint resolution as well as determination of the sanctions. There would need to be a review panel or other mechanism to allow for fair opportunity to defend any complaints, etc. This would give a mechanism to make sure that there is protection from "puppy mill" breeders claiming affiliation & also would ensure a consistent "base" standard any purchaser could expect when buying from an approved breeder. While I think on-site inpections would be great I don't think they are logistically or financially practical. It would be easy to set up a "virtual" approval system however. This could include getting a signed ethics statement (specific to breeders, not just for club participation like we already have for NTCA),and an attestation from a veterinarian as to the dogs being maintained in good health.

I think if the TDR wishes to maintain credibility then there needs to be such a mechanism & it needs to have defined and enforced guidelines with "real" consequences for any breeders that act inappropriately.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Tiantai » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:46 am

While I strongly discourage giving away too much of the breeder's private property to the public, I think is should be crucial for the breeders to at least provide some informations along with a few photos about where the pups and dam are kept and the little environment to the committee members. Anywhere in the house not related to the pups and dam, they should stay private. But the one area where the pups are I'd definitely want to know about and how my pup who I will be taking home once he/she is at the leaving week is staying and how the parents of the pups are doing as well. Some like the Yellowstone litter's video serve as a good example as it gave all of the current owners of the pups from that litter a good idea of how those who will be raising a litter should handle the pups and to keep them safe.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by AZDehlin » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:58 am

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:While I strongly discourage giving away too much of the breeder's private property to the public, I think is should be crucial for the breeders to at least provide some informations along with a few photos about where the pups and dam are kept and the little environment to the committee members. Anywhere in the house not related to the pups and dam, they should stay private. But the one area where the pups are I'd definitely want to know about and how my pup who I will be taking home once he/she is at the leaving week is staying and how the parents of the pups are doing as well. Some like the Yellowstone litter's video serve as a good example as it gave all of the current owners of the pups from that litter a good idea of how those who will be raising a litter should handle the pups and to keep them safe.

If I am not mistaken you have to give pictures of your house and property as a prerequisite to get a tam? This stuff doesn't go public I am sure if tdr committee wanted photo's of breeders property more in depth it would not be bad.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by WhiteElkStag » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:07 am

Great idea Karsten. Perhaps we could use cyber-tours and skype in lieu of actual visits to cut down the costs.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Tiantai » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:09 am

AZDehlin wrote:
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:While I strongly discourage giving away too much of the breeder's private property to the public, I think is should be crucial for the breeders to at least provide some informations along with a few photos about where the pups and dam are kept and the little environment to the committee members. Anywhere in the house not related to the pups and dam, they should stay private. But the one area where the pups are I'd definitely want to know about and how my pup who I will be taking home once he/she is at the leaving week is staying and how the parents of the pups are doing as well. Some like the Yellowstone litter's video serve as a good example as it gave all of the current owners of the pups from that litter a good idea of how those who will be raising a litter should handle the pups and to keep them safe.

If I am not mistaken you have to give pictures of your house and property as a prerequisite to get a tam? This stuff doesn't go public I am sure if tdr committee wanted photo's of breeders property more in depth it would not be bad.
I think so, as it's part of screening, but I meant by allowing a rep or committee member in the country to know where the pups will be.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by nivenj » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:27 am

:D I've never agreed with the requirement to give photos of your property and partner, kids, pets etc as a condition of getting a Tam. Although I understand the need to ensure someone understands what they are taking on and can give a good home to the Pup/Dog, I find it a gross invasion of privacy and a step too far. A good Breeder should be able to tell via correspondence wether someone seems suitable or not. Also lets face it, I could send pictures of anyone and any house and pass it off as my own, so its not really an effective requirement.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Sylvaen » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:15 am

jraloff wrote:While I don't think it would necessarily be fair to retrospectively enforce sanctions I do think that it is very important that there be minimal criteria set forth for a breeder to maintain "approved breeder" status. This should include a code of ethics, appropriate health maintenance & testing of the animals etc. If a breeder/kennel is found to be in violation then sanctions could be imposed. These could range from a fine to temporary suspension to permanent expulsion. It would definitely take some work up front to develop the criteria & a mechanism for formal complaint and complaint resolution as well as determination of the sanctions. There would need to be a review panel or other mechanism to allow for fair opportunity to defend any complaints, etc. This would give a mechanism to make sure that there is protection from "puppy mill" breeders claiming affiliation & also would ensure a consistent "base" standard any purchaser could expect when buying from an approved breeder. While I think on-site inpections would be great I don't think they are logistically or financially practical. It would be easy to set up a "virtual" approval system however. This could include getting a signed ethics statement (specific to breeders, not just for club participation like we already have for NTCA),and an attestation from a veterinarian as to the dogs being maintained in good health.

I think if the TDR wishes to maintain credibility then there needs to be such a mechanism & it needs to have defined and enforced guidelines with "real" consequences for any breeders that act inappropriately.
This system has already been in place for several years (since 2006) and the TDR deals with related issues and complaints as they arise, imposing sanctions as necessary - unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be working and it would appear that the current reward/punishment system (pertaining to puppy registration) only serves as further incentive for breeders to be deceitful. (That's just my perspective though.)
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Rahne » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:33 am

Sylvaen wrote:
jraloff wrote:While I don't think it would necessarily be fair to retrospectively enforce sanctions I do think that it is very important that there be minimal criteria set forth for a breeder to maintain "approved breeder" status. This should include a code of ethics, appropriate health maintenance & testing of the animals etc. If a breeder/kennel is found to be in violation then sanctions could be imposed. These could range from a fine to temporary suspension to permanent expulsion. It would definitely take some work up front to develop the criteria & a mechanism for formal complaint and complaint resolution as well as determination of the sanctions. There would need to be a review panel or other mechanism to allow for fair opportunity to defend any complaints, etc. This would give a mechanism to make sure that there is protection from "puppy mill" breeders claiming affiliation & also would ensure a consistent "base" standard any purchaser could expect when buying from an approved breeder. While I think on-site inpections would be great I don't think they are logistically or financially practical. It would be easy to set up a "virtual" approval system however. This could include getting a signed ethics statement (specific to breeders, not just for club participation like we already have for NTCA),and an attestation from a veterinarian as to the dogs being maintained in good health.

I think if the TDR wishes to maintain credibility then there needs to be such a mechanism & it needs to have defined and enforced guidelines with "real" consequences for any breeders that act inappropriately.
This system has already been in place for several years (since 2006) and the TDR deals with related issues and complaints as they arise, imposing sanctions as necessary - unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be working and it would appear that the current reward/punishment system (pertaining to puppy registration) only serves as further incentive for breeders to be deceitful. (That's just my perspective though.)
I think the accredited breeders scheme wasn't really advertised and breeders didn't take it serious (enough). I think it could work if we change the conditions/rating system and make a good list with all breeders and clearly show what rating they have and what it means. Also maybe its a better idea to 'punish' breeders in the form of a fine or that the litter doesn't get advertised (and others do) or just clearly stated that the breeder broke a certain condition, instead of puppy registrations.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:53 am

Rahne wrote:
Sylvaen wrote:
jraloff wrote:While I don't think it would necessarily be fair to retrospectively enforce sanctions I do think that it is very important that there be minimal criteria set forth for a breeder to maintain "approved breeder" status. This should include a code of ethics, appropriate health maintenance & testing of the animals etc. If a breeder/kennel is found to be in violation then sanctions could be imposed. These could range from a fine to temporary suspension to permanent expulsion. It would definitely take some work up front to develop the criteria & a mechanism for formal complaint and complaint resolution as well as determination of the sanctions. There would need to be a review panel or other mechanism to allow for fair opportunity to defend any complaints, etc. This would give a mechanism to make sure that there is protection from "puppy mill" breeders claiming affiliation & also would ensure a consistent "base" standard any purchaser could expect when buying from an approved breeder. While I think on-site inpections would be great I don't think they are logistically or financially practical. It would be easy to set up a "virtual" approval system however. This could include getting a signed ethics statement (specific to breeders, not just for club participation like we already have for NTCA),and an attestation from a veterinarian as to the dogs being maintained in good health.

I think if the TDR wishes to maintain credibility then there needs to be such a mechanism & it needs to have defined and enforced guidelines with "real" consequences for any breeders that act inappropriately.
This system has already been in place for several years (since 2006) and the TDR deals with related issues and complaints as they arise, imposing sanctions as necessary - unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be working and it would appear that the current reward/punishment system (pertaining to puppy registration) only serves as further incentive for breeders to be deceitful. (That's just my perspective though.)
I think the accredited breeders scheme wasn't really advertised and breeders didn't take it serious (enough). I think it could work if we change the conditions/rating system and make a good list with all breeders and clearly show what rating they have and what it means. Also maybe its a better idea to 'punish' breeders in the form of a fine or that the litter doesn't get advertised (and others do) or just clearly stated that the breeder broke a certain condition, instead of puppy registrations.
What if a breeder punishment was a year or 2 expulsion from the TDR? unless in the case of fraud and deception weather in the TRD or to a customer (not going on current situations, i'd have thought that anyway)... in the case of fraud, a ban from TDR as that is the worst thing that could happen (risking problems like inbreeding ect all for money)... Just a thought...
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Ciaobella » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:07 pm

nivenj wrote::D I've never agreed with the requirement to give photos of your property and partner, kids, pets etc as a condition of getting a Tam. Although I understand the need to ensure someone understands what they are taking on and can give a good home to the Pup/Dog, I find it a gross invasion of privacy and a step too far. A good Breeder should be able to tell via correspondence wether someone seems suitable or not. Also lets face it, I could send pictures of anyone and any house and pass it off as my own, so its not really an effective requirement.
I agree here. I'm don't think that I should have to show off my life in order to get a dog. I understand that every breeder wants their dogs in the best home possible but I just have to agree with Nivenj.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Rahne » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:32 pm

TerriHolt wrote: What if a breeder punishment was a year or 2 expulsion from the TDR? unless in the case of fraud and deception weather in the TRD or to a customer (not going on current situations, i'd have thought that anyway)... in the case of fraud, a ban from TDR as that is the worst thing that could happen (risking problems like inbreeding ect all for money)... Just a thought...
In that case it's very IMPORTANT that no puppies bred by this breeder can get registered with the TDR, like is happening now. Otherwise there is absolutely no point in banning a breeder.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Tatzel » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:09 am

Reviews sound like a great idea to me!

The only crucial part is that people have to remind being respectful with their reviews, even if there have been issues with a breeder. I know we're talking about a living, breathing and feeling being, but I'd like to compare to amazon reviews of products regardless; they always helped me deciding wether to get a product or not, and I felt like I was always left with the better products thanks to the user reviews.

Actually, I think every side could benefit greatly from reviews, those who seek for a breeder, and the breeders themselves who can take critisism into account and shape up accordingly if it's required.

Speaking personally, since I have lost all faith in Lynn and her practises, I'm currently on the lookout for a new breeder. I don't plan to get a Tamaskan anytime soon, but I want to get one eventually and I'm one of those people who are on the lookout rather early. My first choice was Lynn because she did found the breed, so I automatically assumed she would be a great breeder, but little did I know...
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Tiantai » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:58 am

Tatzel wrote:Reviews sound like a great idea to me!

The only crucial part is that people have to remind being respectful with their reviews, even if there have been issues with a breeder. I know we're talking about a living, breathing and feeling being, but I'd like to compare to amazon reviews of products regardless; they always helped me deciding wether to get a product or not, and I felt like I was always left with the better products thanks to the user reviews.

Actually, I think every side could benefit greatly from reviews, those who seek for a breeder, and the breeders themselves who can take critisism into account and shape up accordingly if it's required.

Speaking personally, since I have lost all faith in Lynn and her practises, I'm currently on the lookout for a new breeder. I don't plan to get a Tamaskan anytime soon, but I want to get one eventually and I'm one of those people who are on the lookout rather early. My first choice was Lynn because she did found the breed, so I automatically assumed she would be a great breeder, but little did I know...
My first choice was the Bannows because I have always been in contact with them more and I have a strong trust in them and their practice and also because I was a big fan of former alpha Blaze. I had some faith in Lynn as well but yes after what's happened I am no different from you about Blustag but I still respect her from a neutral perspective that although she did make big mistakes; I still acknowledge her as the founder and as the one who brought the Tamaskan breed to us. But I'm glad I stuck to Tarheel.

Since you're in Germany, I think you'll be able to contact Karsten who is now the rep for the German branch and if you need advice on who to get the dog from I think Karsten will be able to help give you some ideas. Of course, whoever you choose your breeder is your choice in the end. Best of luck on your future decision. ;)
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:45 am

Tatzel wrote:
Speaking personally, since I have lost all faith in Lynn and her practises, I'm currently on the lookout for a new breeder. I don't plan to get a Tamaskan anytime soon, but I want to get one eventually and I'm one of those people who are on the lookout rather early. My first choice was Lynn because she did found the breed, so I automatically assumed she would be a great breeder, but little did I know...
Same :? That was my reasoning behind it...

and i didn't like the thought of putting puppy through long travel and she is/was (not sure about now) only an hour (or 2) away... If i couldn't have got there, she was close enough to come to me...
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The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Nahani » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:17 am

Right, what I was trying to say was that I would welcome a review page/forum/site, as much as anything else it gives us the opportunity to learn best practice, I hate the fluffy saying but it's true, it would be good to learn what others are doing so making us more consistent throughout the breed as breeders. It also helps to inform new owners/potential owners as to what they can expect, which I think is very important as some may be inexpereinced so need guiding through the whole process. I have emails from people who want a pup now, today and it just won't do for them to wait 6 months...well. Newsflash! So I do think it would be extremely helpful. I think it would help if there were 1-5 maybe as 1-3 may not quite cover the range of feelings for example:

Q. Do you feel your needs were met by your breeder in regards to provision of information before you chose/collected your pup? (a whole host of questions can be used generically; do you feel the litter were well cared for/socialized, do you feel you are well prepared for the pups arrival etc)
A.
1. Strongly agree
2. Slightly agree
3. Neither agree nor disagree
4. Slightly disagree
5. Strongly disagree

The review system I have in my head would be a bit like TripAdvisor where you rate colouring in a number of circles and then have the option to leave a comment afterwards, photo's etc. So instantly the breeder could come up as a Bronze level breeder , the info of what you can expect and the rating given by previous customers.

I thought that the level of accreditation was good as it clearly set out what a buyer could expect to have literally in their hand on the day of collecting their pup, the vacc and health testing info, pedigree, diet sheet, bag of food to start, etc.

I love the idea of an FB page for each litter, wish i'd thought of that 2 years ago! So that littermates owners can follow progress, share info and even weight height measurements etc. Although a forum page works just as well for most, I find it much more graphically easy to look at on FB. i.e Nahani Jan Litter 2012, with Dam/Sire as sub-heading so that there is no confusion with half-siblings' litters.

Just as a sidenote, I hope that we can organise proper breed paperwork that is difficult to copy, whether that's with a watermark or foil logo, and if there's a cost for the production of these things it just make us look professional and that we are trying to eliminate the possibilities of fraud.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Rahne » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:06 am

Nahani wrote: Just as a sidenote, I hope that we can organise proper breed paperwork that is difficult to copy, whether that's with a watermark or foil logo, and if there's a cost for the production of these things it just make us look professional and that we are trying to eliminate the possibilities of fraud.
We are working on this ;)

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Nino » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:29 am

I agree with the 1-5 instead of 1-3 since it gives a better idea of your opinion..

a facebook page per litter might be a lot to administrate in the long run though lol.. maybe it would be better to make one and have puppy owners in there - from all litters? :)


I would like for the Review to be on the TDR.org site instead, and the admin to approve reviews so that there are no just ramblings ones..
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:56 pm

Rahne wrote:
Nahani wrote: Just as a sidenote, I hope that we can organise proper breed paperwork that is difficult to copy, whether that's with a watermark or foil logo, and if there's a cost for the production of these things it just make us look professional and that we are trying to eliminate the possibilities of fraud.
We are working on this ;)
In the same spirit the hip scores need to be treated similarly. I like the BVA system much better than the OFA--but, gosh, I sure wish they entered final scores into a database so things couldn't be forged. :/

I am glad to hear that registration papers will be changed. I'm willing to pay a higher registration fee for this. Even I could design something better in photoshop...but yes, a watermark or something so that they can't be photocopied and altered.

As another thought: does anyone know where I can find what the codes mean on the Scidera DNA sheets? Thanks.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Nino » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:15 pm

Hawthorne wrote: In the same spirit the hip scores need to be treated similarly. I like the BVA system much better than the OFA--but, gosh, I sure wish they entered final scores into a database so things couldn't be forged. :/
I cannot even count the times I have wished that BVA worked like OFFA on that point :?
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:21 pm

Nino wrote:
Hawthorne wrote: In the same spirit the hip scores need to be treated similarly. I like the BVA system much better than the OFA--but, gosh, I sure wish they entered final scores into a database so things couldn't be forged. :/
I cannot even count the times I have wished that BVA worked like OFFA on that point :?
Does OFFA put them in a data base?
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by arianwenarie » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:22 pm

Nino wrote:
Hawthorne wrote: In the same spirit the hip scores need to be treated similarly. I like the BVA system much better than the OFA--but, gosh, I sure wish they entered final scores into a database so things couldn't be forged. :/
I cannot even count the times I have wished that BVA worked like OFFA on that point :?
Does the BVA have a email address where the Tamaskan community can contact them requesting a database? lol. I think OFA will post BVA scores....? At least, I think I saw that you can search for them in their advanced search.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by arianwenarie » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:23 pm

TerriHolt wrote:
Nino wrote:
Hawthorne wrote: In the same spirit the hip scores need to be treated similarly. I like the BVA system much better than the OFA--but, gosh, I sure wish they entered final scores into a database so things couldn't be forged. :/
I cannot even count the times I have wished that BVA worked like OFFA on that point :?
Does OFFA put them in a data base?
www.offa.org If your dog is tested through OFA, then you can choose to publish your dog's test results on their online database.

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Tarheel » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:28 pm

TerriHolt wrote:
Does OFFA put them in a database?
The OFFA has a serchable database, not only for hips but for several tests, DM included. GO to the OFFA.org homepage and click on Advanced Search. Highlight Tamaskan in the breed block and then click Begin Search.
One option you have when sumitting items to the OFFA is that the breeder is given the option tohave their dog's information private or posted publicly on thier searchable database.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Nino » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:20 pm

I wish we had this with the Tamaskan too.. and that we just required all breeding dogs to have them public (so that people could search the dogs).. would be so nice..
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:31 pm

Having to make them public would be a good idea, but is OFA not as good as BVA ? :? (who doesn't make them public? Sorry, never really paid much attention to this bit :oops: )
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:39 pm

TerriHolt wrote:Having to make them public would be a good idea, but is OFA not as good as BVA ? :? (who doesn't make them public? Sorry, never really paid much attention to this bit :oops: )
Terri--in my opinion BVA is a much better scoring system. They score each hip and then add the two scores together for a total score. The OFA test seems much more subjective to me. BVA has many more "grades" than OFA. (BVA = 0-106 while OFA = Excellent, Good, Fair, etc.) I personally would not want to go back to OFA.
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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by arianwenarie » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:25 pm

Hawthorne wrote:
TerriHolt wrote:Having to make them public would be a good idea, but is OFA not as good as BVA ? :? (who doesn't make them public? Sorry, never really paid much attention to this bit :oops: )
Terri--in my opinion BVA is a much better scoring system. They score each hip and then add the two scores together for a total score. The OFA test seems much more subjective to me. BVA has many more "grades" than OFA. (BVA = 0-106 while OFA = Excellent, Good, Fair, etc.) I personally would not want to go back to OFA.
Ditto to that. According to some scales, OFA Excellent is equivalent to BVA 0-4, Good = BVA 5-10 and Fair = 11-18. To me, that's a pretty broad range. :P

Though, I think I remember PennHipp's percentile is dependent on how many of that particular breed was scored, so percentile can be easily skewed too. If I ever needed to get a dog's hips and elbows scored, I'd go for the BVA since I get an actual number for each side. ;)

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Re: BREEDER REVIEWS

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:20 pm

Thanks :D Makes much more sense now...
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There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

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