New outcrosses?

[Nino]

I just now notice you were talking of me (Chris).

To know if the laika could add something, I first will have to know more about the Tamaskan and about why you need outcross and very important about your breedinggoal. Because an outcross must be in line with your goal.
Maybe someone can send me an e-mail or phone me?

I would love to learn more about your experience with your Laika's
I have to say that firstly I have quickly passed them when seeing them online, but I did find your webpage very interesting and the Laika now has a bit of my attention

if you would not mind I would love to get your mail and write you an email?

[weylyn]

I send you a PM Nino. She is at the moment very busy so would not be much on the forum so it is best to mail her

[Czertice]

About being objective, I think I can, I have nothing to gain or loose with advisng Tamaskan

Great!

We were planning on outcrossing with a Czech Wolfdog and those breeders did not like it at all! So they were describing their dogs as 'monsters' to us, just so we would be put off by outcrossing to them...

Haha, some CSW owners are more of a monster than their dogs:] You can be hated even for breeding pure CSWs, so don't take it so hard.
I think the main concern is that any CSW cross (be it Tamaskan or any other) could tarnish the reputation of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs as a breed - bad temperament could crop up. And worse, they are afraid that an unsuspecting owner might buy a Tamaskan the family pet, only to receive a CSW cross possibly with all the unpleasant sides of CSW temperament, for which he would be completely unprepared.
Another concern is that CSWs are a rare breed, and keeping the gene pool large is important. When every breeding animal is a vital contribution, especially a female, as she can have only few litters, many people see a cross-bred litter as a litter lost.

And as I have conversed with Mr. Hartl the "founding father" of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs not long ago, he told me how hard was the fight for international recognition of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog as a distinct breed. He said that especially the German Shepherd people were radically against CSWs, against the whole crossing experiment, and lots of gossip and lies were spread, things done out of spite, etc. It took years and years, and international politics, and a bit of luck too. He said that if it weren't for the German Spitz, whose recognition the Germans wanted to push through at that time, CSWs might not be accepted to the FCI;] They traded - we say yes to your Spitzes and you say yes to our Wolfdogs. I think I now like German Spitzes more because of this;D

[JenTehLuv]

Hello all!

I know of certain outcross possibilities such as the helhund husky, siberian laika, etc but have we discussed these breeds yet? I know many of the spitz have been brought up but weren't really ideal for certain traits (such as curly tails, etc) but I can't recall if these have been discussed yet (I'm sorry if they have!). I know almost nothing about breeding and what colors and fur types are dominant or submissive and how the results of these possible outcrosses may end up so please bare with me lol.

I would like the tamaskan to have longer/denser fur, smaller ears if possible, lessen the SA and prey drive that some of them have, and uphold the personality/companion traits that the tamaskan has. I like the tamaskan for their companionship and how well they tend to be with people and other animals and possible outcrosses should keep the good traits but help out breed the negative.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/scotchcollie.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/kingshepherd.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/shilohshepherd.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/bohemianshepherd.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/a/americanalsatian.htm

[JenTehLuv]

I personally think the American Alsatian would be the best outcross out of the ones I've mentioned. They were bred to be companion dogs (not work dogs originally yet they can do so) are people loving animals that are great with kids and other pets. They are used as therapy dogs quite often for their calm disposition and non hyper nature. They are trying to make them look like dire wolves as well, so they are trying to obtain wolfy looks in their dogs like we are (except they are much bigger, which is something we wanted to improve on no?)

They don't suffer from separation anxiety, they don't dig/bark, have a low prey drive, they don't need as much exercise and are pretty laid back. It'll calm the tamaskan down a bit while adding good traits and looks. From the research I've done they say they are working hard to out breed of any hip dysplasia that can occur and no reports of panosteitis has happened. Supposedly elbow dysplasia and arthritis are almost nonexistent in the breed as well.

Again, this is just from research I've personally done. I've never met one in person but they seem to be great dogs and in my opinion one of the best possible outcrosses for the tamaskan

[balto13]

funny you mention those because I was talking to somebody who works at the kennels on base about the tams and she mentioned American Alsatian. Their fur is pretty long, but I don't know much else about them.

[Taz]

Not sure the founder breeders breeding ethics are in line with the TDR's.
there is another breeder, they appear to be a bit better.

[balto13]

Not sure the founder breeders breeding ethics are in line with the TDR's.
there is another breeder, they appear to be a bit better.

the TDR's founders ethics aren't in line with the TDR either - unfortunately.

Are there only two breeders?

[Taz]

Yes, only 2. However given the number of websites dedicated to the breed, you could be forgiven for thinking the community is larger.

[Taz]

Out of the two, I'd say this is the better one.
http://www.vallecito-alsatians.com/
And the founder
http://schwarzkennels.tripod.com/
Have a good look round and make up your own mind.

[balto13]

Out of the two, I'd say this is the better one.
http://www.vallecito-alsatians.com/
And the founder
http://schwarzkennels.tripod.com/
Have a good look round and make up your own mind.

I would agree with you that the first one is the better of the two, though I am curious about their take on inbreeding and how much it accomplishes in a breeds health ... there are so many wolf look a likes around

[JenTehLuv]

o_o I didn't think there were so few breeders. You're right that with all the info on the breed so far that I thought there ought to be more out there. Out of all the "wolfy" looking breeds they seemed like the best bet for their calm demeanor and low prey drive while sticking to the traits we want (straight tails, larger breed with more fur without looking like a malamute, etc).

[balto13]

One that I really like the looks of is the British Timber Dog (they split from another breed and want to start doing tests, so it might take awhile to see how it develops and actually tests) and there is the Anglo Wulfdog (once again, might take awhile to see how it develops)

[Taz]

You might be able to find an owner with a suitable dog, who is prepared to health test etc. Don't know how easy it'll be though.
The founder breeder isn't one I'd buy a dog from, the other one I'm still figuring out.
They did have a forum, not sure if it's still there, or how active it is.

[Taz]

Can't really comment on the timber dog other than to say at one time they had the worst written breed standard I've ever come across, it still gives me a chuckle. Think they've removed it now, a wise idea imo.
As for the AWD
I might have loft respect for the founder, but, they aren't all her, probably your best bet right now.

[Valravn]

I would stay well away from the American Alsatian founder. The other breeder is not as bad, but I don't much care for how either of them pass around dogs.
As an outcross I would say No. Frankly, I think the American Alsatian has more to gain from the Tamaskan than the Tamaskan has to gain from them.

[balto13]

Can't really comment on the timber dog other than to say at one time they had the worst written breed standard I've ever come across, it still gives me a chuckle. Think they've removed it now, a wise idea imo.
As for the AWD
I might have loft respect for the founder, but, they aren't all her, probably your best bet right now.

yea, breed standards aren't easy, and like I said - they (both BTD and AWD) have a ways to go so right now might not be the best, but could be a good breed(s) to keep an eye on as they progress

*edit*
Though I am a bit worried AWD and seeing so many dams mated with one male, not a very good trait for a reputable breeder and seems like another Jackal - esque issue. Ugh. Too bad to because *some* of the dams are really.

I would stay well away from the American Alsatian founder. The other breeder is not as bad, but I don't much care for how either of them pass around dogs.
As an outcross I would say No. Frankly, I think the American Alsatian has more to gain from the Tamaskan than the Tamaskan has to gain from them.

seems founders have a way of being the worst of "new" breeds

I don't know if I would say it like that, mainly because the tams had a pretty rocky start as well, all breeds to just watch out the peripheral

[darazan]

Do you think it would be a good idea to have individual topics for each possible breed outcross to dicuss the pros and cons, or is it better that it stays on this topic, since it seems that we talk about several and pretty quickly determine whether or not they might be a good outcross?

[balto13]

there would be so many topics, and in some topics only a couple of posts

[darazan]

there would be so many topics, and in some topics only a couple of posts

That's true, so I guess it's easier that it just stays in one thread.

[weylyn]

here and there I see that people want a longer coat....
somebody ever thought of a FCI recognized breed like the Ciobanesc romanesc carpatin?

[wolfwoman]

And what do you thnk of him

Yukon , met naam (14).jpg

[Booma]

here and there I see that people want a longer coat....
somebody ever thought of a FCI recognized breed like the Ciobanesc romanesc carpatin?

For those (like me), that have never heard of the Carpathian shepherd dog:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Shepherd_Dog

Edit - ok there's actually not that much info on the wiki page. Wiki you have let me down!

[Booma]

And what do you thnk of him

Yukon , met naam (14).jpg

In my opinion, there is enough CSV in the breed.

[Sylvaen]

In my opinion, there is enough CSV in the breed.

I think that largely depends on the bloodline... some Tam bloodlines have no (or very little) CSV content at all.

[Booma]

In my opinion, there is enough CSV in the breed.

I think that largely depends on the bloodline... some Tam bloodlines have no (or very little) CSV content at all.

Touche. I would just like to see something new added.

[weylyn]

here and there I see that people want a longer coat....
somebody ever thought of a FCI recognized breed like the Ciobanesc romanesc carpatin?

For those (like me), that have never heard of the Carpathian shepherd dog:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Shepherd_Dog

Edit - ok there's actually not that much info on the wiki page. Wiki you have let me down!

It is a breed that is mostly in Romania.. It was recognized in 2005 but exist much longer. The first article about these dogs came out in 1937 and even exist longer that that. They where mostly used for gardening stock etc because of the wild landscape in the Carpathian Mountains

[Sylvaen]

It is a breed that is mostly in Romania.. It was recognized in 2005 but exist much longer. The first article about these dogs came out in 1937 and even exist longer that that. They where mostly used for gardening stock etc because of the wild landscape in the Carpathian Mountains

Here in Croatia there are similar breeds (Caucasian Shepherd, Sarplaninac, etc) - very large, strong guard dogs (for guarding sheep and livestock against wolves)... now they are mostly used as family protection/guard dogs. While these dogs LOOK like they have potential in terms of appearance (size, coat, color) in my opinion the temperament is not right for these mountain shepherd breeds to be considered as outcrosses. Tamaskan Dogs are not guard dogs and mixing SA with guarding instinct, or the arctic breed independence (not good off-leash) with the independence of these guard dogs (who sleep mostly outdoors, either in the fields or near the main house, but not kept as family pets) could make certain behavioral issues that are already present in the Tamaskan breed much worse... perhaps even to the point of unpredictability - mixing (minor amounts) of wolf content with a breed that was designed and bred to fight off (even kill) wolves. Some pups from such a combination might inherit a stable, calm personality whereas others might be instinctively much more possessive and potentially aggressive.

[HiTenshi16]

Does anyone know of any information about British Timber Dogs? I can't seem to find much information about them other than that they are another wolf look alike breed, and test hips and for DM. I may have to contact a breeder to find out more about them. Some of the dogs I've seen on Facebook are quite stunning and I can't help but wonder if one of these dogs could make a good outcross.

[weylyn]

It is a breed that is mostly in Romania.. It was recognized in 2005 but exist much longer. The first article about these dogs came out in 1937 and even exist longer that that. They where mostly used for gardening stock etc because of the wild landscape in the Carpathian Mountains

Here in Croatia there are similar breeds (Caucasian Shepherd, Sarplaninac, etc) - very large, strong guard dogs (for guarding sheep and livestock against wolves)... now they are mostly used as family protection/guard dogs. While these dogs LOOK like they have potential in terms of appearance (size, coat, color) in my opinion the temperament is not right for these mountain shepherd breeds to be considered as outcrosses. Tamaskan Dogs are not guard dogs and mixing SA with guarding instinct, or the arctic breed independence (not good off-leash) with the independence of these guard dogs (who sleep mostly outdoors, either in the fields or near the main house, but not kept as family pets) could make certain behavioral issues that are already present in the Tamaskan breed much worse... perhaps even to the point of unpredictability - mixing (minor amounts) of wolf content with a breed that was designed and bred to fight off (even kill) wolves. Some pups from such a combination might inherit a stable, calm personality whereas others might be instinctively much more possessive and potentially aggressive.

I see and agree on your point here. But these days the Ciobanesc romanesc carpatin is more bred on being a house dog instead of a guard dog. Also the very early in how this breed was build up is a bit different than the breeds you named This breed have more a closely same beginning as the CwD and the Saarloos only here is the wolf content like in the shepherds etc breed out over time and are now completely dogs....That is why I came to this breed BUT would have to seek contact with some breeders about their temperament than IF we would think about something like that. I just mentioned for the longer coat, not because I would want to see it happen because I do think that using a dog like that would also bring a built with it that is heavier and not wanted for the Tam so you would be quite a few generations further with string selection etc to have out what you don't want and have in a steady way in what you want. But in that that would be with all breeds that aren't already used before and therefore new for the Tam as outcross. So that is also why people must keep in mind that all breed take things with them and a combined litter will always be a step back on the standard what doesn't mean it is bad but that you need generations for it to get back on track but being still in the beginning it is best to rescheards breeds now

[Tiantai]

But what about mixing those breeds in with those dogs who do NOT suffer from severe SA and are NOT from the lines with known wolfdogs in them?

[Taz]

As the owner of a livestock guarding breed, I'd suggest adding such could be a potential disaster. I believe I mentioned my own breed earlier in the thread for a bit of a joke.
Cato is an Estrela mountain dog for those who don't know, and even though many have had the extreme guarding tempered a bit, I still wouldn't suggest you use one.
They might have size, depending on the coat type, long or short, they might not be that bad there either, they come in wolf grey and can have amber and yellow eyes, they've got small ears, though not erect.
They need thorough socialization
They're independent
Can be stubborn
Many can't be let off lead in unsecured areas. And even then, if you're in a place where you're restricted to dog parks and use the same one regularly, expect them to guard it, along with familiar walking routes, as well as your property.

On the one hand, you could end up with a rather calm, nice looking dog, on the other hand, crossing the two could leave you with large, powerful, independent dogs, with high prey and defence drive. That applies to the LGD group in general.

[martinbernstein]

Hey Lucas, you just piqued my curiosity- what tam bloodlines are you referring to that don't suffer from severe SA? Are there such bloodlines?

On another note, I have worked on two meat farms that had livestock guardian dogs, one with maremma sheepdogs, and another with Anatolian shepherd x Great Pyrenees F1 crosses. Awesome farm dogs. Amazing guarding instincts. I watched them chase coyotes away on a daily basis. Hands down a meat farmer's best friend. And absolutely and completely independent, stubborn, aloof, hard of hearing (or so they'll have you think), and the maremmas were very nervous around strangers and prone to snarling and even biting should you make a sudden movement.

In other words, LGD breeds are the last dogs you want to cross with Tamaskans.

[HiTenshi16]

Hey Lucas, you just piqued my curiosity- what tam bloodlines are you referring to that don't suffer from severe SA? Are there such bloodlines?

My two do not suffer from separation anxiety. Ulric comes from Alba and Zelda from Tarheel (who has Alba and Munsterland in her pedigree).

[Booma]

While balto does not have SA, he does go a bit stupid occasionally when I leave him, or if I take my other dog away.

[weylyn]

Many of the Tams here in the Netherlands don't have SA. Many in germany also not.......
I know only 3 here that have had it. One in germany and 2 here. But now 2 of them don't have it anymore......( As far as I know Winter still does and he was/is the worst hahahahah)

So yes I do believe that some lines are more sensitive for it BUT I also believe like many sayings about for instance wolfdogs etc 50% is raising, socialisation etc etc and have nothing to do with the lines.....

Don't mean to hurt someone with this saying but that is what I believe for years now and showed many times with my own dogs that believes that people had about them at the time they had to be replaced that the problem wasn't the dog.
Before Bobbi came to me he was replaced 5 times in 7 weeks time........All who have met him while he was/is with me won't have a clue why because he is the easiest and most relaxed dog......There was nothing wrong with him but just didn't get the right things for him at those other places.......

Like I say I don't mean to hurt anyone with this saying and believe I have. I also not saying that those who have one with SA are doing it wrong....I just say they just haven't find the right way for that dog yet and as long as you keep looking I bet you will find it Maybe not today maybe nit tomorrow but someday....

[martinbernstein]

I know there are are individual dogs that don't suffer from severe SA. My own Tam does not. But are there entire bloodlines that can be said to be generally less prone to SA than others?

[martinbernstein]

And Weylyn, I agree with you that much of a dog's behavior issues rests on the owner, how they train the dog, love the dog and work the dog. But there cannot be any question that genetics plays a huge part in how an individual dog, and a breed generally responds to that training, and handling. The tam is already a fairly challenging breed, not for everyone. Adding more challenging breeds into the mix will likely only make the breed more challenging for those who are seeking a companion dog.

[HiTenshi16]

The tam is already a fairly challenging breed, not for everyone.

Why do you paint the whole breed as challenging? Not everyone's Tamaskan have separation anxiety, have extremely high prey drives, are shy or aloof, or are difficult to train. There are some cases where some dogs may have one or two of those, but much of it also depends on the breeder the pup came from (like how the ones that do have any issues mostly come from the Blu team) and the individual owner.

Before I got my Tamaskan, I was a first time dog owner. My only previous experience with dogs was my family's Dalmation when I was only in kindergarten. I have not found my Tamaskan dogs to be challenging at all. I did have an issue once with Ulric, but that was because a lack of socialization when he just turned a year old because of my husband being sick for 3 months and us not able to go anywhere. He has improved much since then.

[Tiantai]

To clarify, I wasn't talking about bloodlines when I mentioned SA. Nowhere did I mention a bloodline free from SA. I was talking about the dogs who do not suffer from it in general. The part where I mentioned bloodline came in where I was asking about those lines with true wolfdogs in them. I hope it's understood more clearly, Martin. I should have wrote "or" instead of "and" which was my fault where I goofed up there in my question.

[weylyn]

And Weylyn, I agree with you that much of a dog's behavior issues rests on the owner, how they train the dog, love the dog and work the dog. But there cannot be any question that genetics plays a huge part in how an individual dog, and a breed generally responds to that training, and handling. The tam is already a fairly challenging breed, not for everyone. Adding more challenging breeds into the mix will likely only make the breed more challenging for those who are seeking a companion dog.

That is why I said 50 percent is that and the other half is indeed breed related ;/0 But for every breed there is a way and in these breed not every individual does best under one and the same way. I have 3 wolfdogs and 2 tammies. All are quit the same in reaction for the outside world but all have a different way of how I work and train with them With Midas it costed me almost 2 years to find the best way for him.

Also to see them as a challenging breed I do also think how you see that is because of the breed you have before or not at all. For me it is the most easiest breed I have ever had or experienced

[weylyn]

Adding more challenging breeds into the mix will likely only make the breed more challenging for those who are seeking a companion dog.

Sometimes people just let a breed see here for 1 point. Not as a serious adding I have seen more come by that are lovely to know more about but I won't consider them as a serious adding to the tamaskan

[Tiantai]

I remember seeing on facebook two Marxdorfer outcross cases from a few months ago? Last year when I brought up that breed as a hypothetical suggestion two or three of the response I got was that they may not be a good choice due to the controversial history of the breeders (lack of proper health tests) but looking at the posts on the Tamaskan-Germany, I say those pups are looking great so far.

[martinbernstein]

HiTenshi, I think it is reasonable to talk about tams, or any breed for that matter, in general terms. I'm not trying to paintall tams as challenging. The breed as a whole is challenging. There are individuals that are less challenging, but overall I think it is safe to say that in general this breed requires more time, patience and understanding from the owner than most of the popular breeds out there. Is that because the breed itself is full of genetic faults and poor breeding standards? No. Is think it is because most modern dog owners do not live a lifestyle that enables them to excercise and stimulate their working breed dogs the way dog owners were in the past. The tam descends from sled dogs, and were designed to run a lot. Tams are therefore more challenging to today's generally overfed, under exercised average person. My point is simply that the average dog shopper looking for an average dog will find that the Tamaskan is not the ideal breed for them.

Lucas, I was just curious. Not trying to challenge your statement, just wondering what bloodlines you were referring to.

Weylyn, I totally see your point;) I like imagining cool outcrosses as well.

[Katlin]

I'm with Martin on his statement. No not all tams are difficult but I think it's fair to say that generally the breed can be. It's like saying all labs are friendly...most are, but I've met some labs that would love nothing more than to rip my leg off lol!

I've had three labs, a yorkie, and a border collie X malamute and I am definitely saying that Wylie is the most difficult dog I've ever owned. He is fun to train, but very challenging. He has a huge prey drive, a moderate amount of SA, and needs a lot of exercise. If I am able to run him hard, every night, then he turns into a sleeping lump. If I'm sick and can't take him as far, he turns into a tasmanian devil as most dogs will.

My point being that I also think it's fair to say they are a more challenging breed...and with that also said I wouldn't want to mix in any dog that is considered a guard dog and thereby was marked and known for aggression. Seems like a "one step forward, three steps back" situation IMHO.

[Hawthorne]

Hey Lucas, you just piqued my curiosity- what tam bloodlines are you referring to that don't suffer from severe SA? Are there such bloodlines?

My two do not suffer from separation anxiety. Ulric comes from Alba and Zelda from Tarheel (who has Alba and Munsterland in her pedigree).

My girls don't have SA. Darwin does a little but he was improperly trained as a puppy with his former owner. He was crated 10 hours a day six days a week, alone. That just set him up for it, genetic or not.

[AZDehlin]

My Zephyr did as a baby but at 2 years old he is just fine now staying home alone or with my other dog.

[Tiantai]

No offence taken, Martin

[Eventide]

Interesting conversation. Max doesn't have much of a problem with SA; however, he's not usually left alone for more than 4-5 hours at a time and not every day. Interesting though that it does seem to be less in some sire/dam litters than others.

I have raised cocker spaniels, german shepherds, and rescue dogs, and honestly, my Tam has been the easiest of all of them. He has been very patient with me while I learn how to please him .

All kidding aside, I have found after taking two training courses, spending alot of time on this website and FB pages, if I listen to him really carefully, he tells me what's working and what's not. IMHO, as with raising children, all are different and have different needs -- so mostly it's all about "trial and error."

[martinbernstein]

Comparing my two dogs i would say that overall my tam is the easier of the two as long as we're indoors. As long as she is inside the house she is super quiet, a total couch potato, friendly towards most strangers, and loves to cuddle. My male Karelian Bear Dog however is hyper indoors. Friendly, but very needy and needs constant stimulation with toys and games.

Outdoors, their roles reverse- the Karelian bear dog is awesome, stays close to me if left of leash, and is generally calm. My Tamaskan becomes a wild beast, kills any animal she can (no more of leash for Froya!), pulls on the leash (I walk her with a skijoring line and belt after finally giving up on training her not to pull), and cannot follow simple commands. She has also lunged aggressively at the mail man, which strikes me as odd since northern breeds generally aren't territorial. She definitely can be.

But I love both my dogs for who they are, train and excercise them to the best of my ability and work with their needs to make as harmonious a home as I can for all of us.