New outcrosses?

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:13 pm

torriarno wrote:merle to merle can produces blind puppies in england
it can do that everywhere :lol:
Just kidding ;)


okay Pegan - the piebald in the Tamaskan is Recessive (in the CED it seems so too) which means that you need to have two carrier parents to produce a piebald - also this is why it rarely is seen in the Tamaskan, but it has happened a handful of times, but is tried to be avoided..
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Lynwae » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:19 am

What about Altdeutsche Schäferhunde?

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by torriarno » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:12 am

Any way ..yes i understood .....your dna on rough and smooth..... but other people .....do not ..so was explaining in simple terms for new comers .....am not in competion on who can put over the best dna,,I had already explained in simple terms that the rest of the generation count in terms of DNA .....

ie I mated ..brelo forever loyal to sindalyn star aqurius. both shaded sables..ie they have black overlay hairs....which means they carry the tricolour in their genes.....both these dogs were sable.....out of 7 pups one was a tri colour....

I mated a shaded sable to a tricolour and got 7 pups..all sable....despite other tricolours on the fathers side to...but you see one of the sires...in my bitches forth generation was a dominant sable.....who never sired a tricolour.....

My smooth was a blue merle...he had what one call an open coat....ie it was just ever so slightly...longer and not as dense and closed...this was undesired in the smooth but as the gene pool was small rough and smooth were..allowed to mate for a period of time..
the roughs from smooth matings were roughs but with not as much coat....and would be classiedfied as a rough....even though it did not have much coat it was still longer than a roughs open coat...when the mating between rough and smooth was stopped after some time and any rough coats were disallowed to register with the kennel club...and the did crop up from time to time ...the open smooth coat was allowed as short....but still the rough coat can crop up even generations decades a head... so that is putting it simply for all to understand....


now then....

the unwanted traits in a collie as it hindered a collie as a working dog....in the hills


prick ears...pointed..affected their type of catching sounds (A wolfs ear can turn to the side sort of to catch their sounds ...though a smooth collie ears has less fold than the rough that is the only difference between the two collies apart from the coat
not much coat in length or under coat
soft coat letting in the rain..
(smooths have harsh weather resisting coats but were used for cattle)
(roughs worked in the hills with sheep..)
hair feet was not wanted....but some breed of dogs they re a stipulation...
well padded feet a must....some collies now have thin pink pads...not good for a working dog.
fluffy stuffy...incorrect coat texture.
coat should fit the outline of the dog...and undercoat tight with outer harsh coat
then then is the conformation...
light eyes is unwanted in a collie ..dont want to scare the sheep lol

inuits /utonagons got pointed ears....which..with the gsd genes gave them pointed ears...and the folded ear....crops up still....evan though a prick eared collie was used....
patchy shading to on the ute and inuits....
the coats were collie coats with long fethering..like a collie....
if a blue merle was used i saw one which had it....
all the genes ie husky blue merle genes come to the fore and blue yes come out with blue muddy colouring etc...and lots of white
usually ...when a collie say with prick ears...it usually has a lot more of the bad traits to.....

my first rough collie had a receding skull...hair feet, white factored. prick eared.short sable coat though a beautiful colour.he was narrow in front, had big round light eyes.. and died of cancer at 4 years of age....I loved that collie more than any other collie i have ever owned apart from my smooth....he worked test b in obedience competition was a happy great loyal companion...was intelligent....
but alas.....bad traits ...usually has undercurrents..his was cancer.... his death was recognised locally as he used to be in a demonstration team to ...

over all the collie really is not ..stable enough i think to use because of the health problems...now this is explained simply for all to understand... thank you for teaching me to suck eggs ...

dont wish to be rude ....but pagan and I have tried to explain in simple terms...why its not such a good idea on the collie...but you will do what you do..but remember one thing ....your influx to the breed must be health free......for generations....as well as the traits that you want....know their pedigree inside out...
I t was late last night ..time difference in the countries..pagan and I were tired..at that time of night...
thanks to those that have taken on board what we have been trying to say...and for reading our threads.....we have much experience with the collie and gsd... thank you and best wishes
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by pagan » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:35 pm

Well said Torriano.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:54 pm

I was wondering if a Marxdorfer dog has the right temperament for the breed because when searching online for informations on those dogs all I'm finding is a debatable wikipedia article that's (in my opinion) poorly written (no proper citations) and many informations about them being met with skepticism. Apparently on youtube someone PMed me saying that this breed was made from a crossing of Saarloos, maybe some unknown mutts, and carefully selected White Shepherds to improve on the temperament and reduce the shyness and some of them do appear to look like Saarloos but until I can find more informations (still searching at the moment), I don't know if the Marxdorfer is a good outcross.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:16 pm

Tiantai wrote:I was wondering if a Marxdorfer dog has the right temperament for the breed because when searching online for informations on those dogs all I'm finding is a debatable wikipedia article that's (in my opinion) poorly written (no proper citations) and many informations about them being met with skepticism. Apparently on youtube someone PMed me saying that this breed was made from a crossing of Saarloos, maybe some unknown mutts, and carefully selected White Shepherds to improve on the temperament and reduce the shyness and some of them do appear to look like Saarloos but until I can find more informations (still searching at the moment), I don't know if the Marxdorfer is a good outcross.
Huh. It amazes me how many of these breeds look just like ours. Pretty dogs.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by weylyn » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:11 pm

I can say the Marxdorfer isn't a good outcross. Why?
Of course we know this breed for a few years now and must say I have nothing against the breed as the breed but I also know that the main breeder doesn't do any required test you would think of by the breeds they using so I just would not dare to take the risk. ( if they would have done that and already a few generation I would consider it as an good outcross)
My meaning is that if you want to do an outcross you have to know as much as you can about the line of the dog you want to use.
I would more be looking at that than the breed I want to use............

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by martinbernstein » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:58 pm

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I'm asking a question already asked.

I've often thought a Tamaskan x racing sled dog (sibe x greyhound or some mix of that sort) would be awesome. What do people think of that hypothetical cross?

Ann Dresselhaus says she used greyhound mixes in creating the ANCD. And if you've looked at the Yarrow thread here on the forum it is easy to see how amazing-looking her dogs are.

Of course you run into the risk of creating a dog that only the fittest, most active people can deal with. But still, I think it is a cool hypothetical cross.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Czertice » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:08 pm

The owner of my dog's brother owns a marxdorfer wolfdog, they even had an unplanned litter, and kept four of the puppies... I bet their life has never been boring since:]
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:25 am

Despite however gorgeous the Marxdorfer mix is - I will have to give it a personal "No thank you" on that...
Despite them saying that the Marxdofer should have a better temper than the Saarloos I have also been told that in many cases this is not true..
Had the Marxdorfer been more stable, then maybe.. But now? No..
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:26 am

Martin - we discussed earlier in this thread if it would be a good idea to add extra husky and greyhound too - you should look back :-)
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tatzel » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:24 pm

Nino wrote:Despite however gorgeous the Marxdorfer mix is - I will have to give it a personal "No thank you" on that...
Despite them saying that the Marxdofer should have a better temper than the Saarloos I have also been told that in many cases this is not true..
Had the Marxdorfer been more stable, then maybe.. But now? No..
I've looked at their breeding dogs and a lot of them are labeled as "reserved" or even "aloof". Only a few are actually open and outgoing. I agree that this is not something I would want to get put into the Tamaskan breed, I love that they're good with dogs and people alike, generally very friendly and outgoing.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by martinbernstein » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:16 pm

Thanks Nino. Will do.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:18 pm

Alright then. Well come to think of it, I think Marc Jiskra owns a cream-coloured (or snow white) Marxdorfer female.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Katlin » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:44 pm

Tiantai wrote:Alright then. Well come to think of it, I think Marc Jiskra owns a cream-coloured (or snow white) Marxdorfer female.
Humm...I thought that was a german shepherd... :?
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:55 pm

Katlin wrote:
Tiantai wrote:Alright then. Well come to think of it, I think Marc Jiskra owns a cream-coloured (or snow white) Marxdorfer female.
Humm...I thought that was a german shepherd... :?
Nope, I remember speaking with him on facebook once. He told me that his other dog is a Marxdorfer but I can see why you'd think it was a White German Shepherd. The breed is described as being a cross between White German Shepherds and Saarloos and other mutts
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:26 pm

Katlin wrote:
Tiantai wrote:Alright then. Well come to think of it, I think Marc Jiskra owns a cream-coloured (or snow white) Marxdorfer female.
Humm...I thought that was a german shepherd... :?
Lumi is a Marxdorfer
She is really adorable and I know he loves her loads :)
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Hawthorne » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:20 am

weylyn wrote:I can say the Marxdorfer isn't a good outcross. Why?
Of course we know this breed for a few years now and must say I have nothing against the breed as the breed but I also know that the main breeder doesn't do any required test you would think of by the breeds they using so I just would not dare to take the risk. ( if they would have done that and already a few generation I would consider it as an good outcross)
My meaning is that if you want to do an outcross you have to know as much as you can about the line of the dog you want to use.
I would more be looking at that than the breed I want to use............
No health testing? What a shame. I would certainly not accept a dog only on looks. But I am still surprised at the number of wolfie breeds out there.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by weylyn » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:45 am

Hawthorne wrote: But I am still surprised at the number of wolfie breeds out there.
I am not hahaha I am still surprised I didn't hear here of the LUPO ITALIANO( created in 1966 out of wolf and german shepard) and the american Tundra Shepard ( started out as an experiment in the 60)
Because this two are older breeds than some that did came up already

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:01 pm

weylyn wrote:
I am not hahaha I am still surprised I didn't hear here of the LUPO ITALIANO( created in 1966 out of wolf and german shepard) and the american Tundra Shepard ( started out as an experiment in the 60)
Because this two are older breeds than some that did came up already
I did mention the Lupo Italiano a few posts ago
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:07 pm

It fascinates me how there are so many breeds and mutts out there that look similar to the Tamaskan dogs including but not limited to the NAIDs, some Kugsha, Czech Vlcak, Saarloos, Marxdorfer, and so many mutts like the Laika/Siberian Huskies crosses. And yet, trying to find the perfect studs from any of those dogs is extremely difficult for various reasons including but not limited to health (given the mystery from the lack of health testing of the Marxdorfer's background), temperament, proper skeletal formations, and the craziness over wolf-content in some places of the word where any animal with known wolves within 5 generations is banned. It's ironic how the dogs with the appearances closest to the Tamaskan breed seems to be (not always) a bad choice for outcrossing but on the other hand appearances is not everything and I'm more for promoting diversity in the breed and good temperament which is why I recommended certain non-spitz for outcrossing in a few posts from last month. As long as the dog can improve the breed's health, agility, endurance, and temperament, I am willing to take a step away from the appearances for a generation and two.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:25 pm

weylyn wrote:
Hawthorne wrote: american Tundra Shepard ( started out as an experiment in the 60)
Because this two are older breeds than some that did came up already
There is a breeder not far from me, in VA. I haven't dare reach out to any of these folks, though. I think this is TDR business. It takes a lot of finesse to properly approach a stranger, get to know them, and then ask them for what would be an immense favor. I think most breeds strictly prohibit outcrossing, and if you're caught you're out of the breed club. I would think that the proposed outcross' breed club would also have to give an okay. *sigh* I'm exhausted just thinking about all of this!
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tatzel » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:40 pm

Not sure if anyone has asked this yet, but were there any thoughts spend on doing outcrosses with BBS dogs? I mean they carry the diluted black gene, but they're really wolfy looking since they're F5-F6 wolfdogs? (and thus don't really count as wolfdogs anymore)
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Karen » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:19 pm

BBS?

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Valravn » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:21 pm

Blue Bay Shepherd. I do like them but I don't think people want any more wolfdog, even diluted wolfdog, in the Tam.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Rahne » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:26 pm

I'm not against adding more wolfdog and I think the Blue Bay Shepherds are interesting... but since they just started out I would want to wait for a few more years to see how they develop (in terms of temperament and health). I wonder what effects the selection on the 'blue' (black dillution) color will have.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Karen » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:42 pm

Valravn wrote:Blue Bay Shepherd. I do like them but I don't think people want any more wolfdog, even diluted wolfdog, in the Tam.
No probs with adding wolfdog.

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:46 pm

since they are still on their first generation (and thereby quite a few years behind where the Tamaskan is in the developement now) and the main breeder goes by the "well I haven't had problems with Hip dysplasia so I don't need to xray" then I personally for now is not at all interested in adding BBS to the Tamaskan..
I don't think it would do anything good for the Tam anyway..
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:50 pm

Well while I do think that the Blue Bay Shepherds might make good outcrosses IF their health and temperament are going in a good direction, what I fear though is that it might result with more dogs testing positive for wolf-content as what has already occurred with some of the known Tamaskans and part of my wish is to have the existing wolf contents disappear in the next two of three generations in the breed so that they would not be in danger of being confiscated if sent out to owners living in States and Provinces where the legality of owning a dog with known wolf-content is still under dispute.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by arianwenarie » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:53 am

Tiantai wrote:Well while I do think that the Blue Bay Shepherds might make good outcrosses IF their health and temperament are going in a good direction, what I fear though is that it might result with more dogs testing positive for wolf-content as what has already occurred with some of the known Tamaskans and part of my wish is to have the existing wolf contents disappear in the next two of three generations in the breed so that they would not be in danger of being confiscated if sent out to owners living in States and Provinces where the legality of owning a dog with known wolf-content is still under dispute.
Well, I highly doubt the existing wolf content (that might be disputable if we're going by the UC Davis test) will disappear in two to three generations if we're taking into account of the bloodline that has Jodie and Whitefang in it. As for the ones with who is suspected to be the CsV Oxbow Leva-Neve (Oskari), then that might be negligible already... ;)

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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:16 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
As for the ones with who is suspected to be the CsV Oxbow Leva-Neve (Oskari), then that might be negligible already... ;)
Well, like a couple of people in the Stop Wolfdog Misrepresentation group have already said, the Československý vlčiak aren't exactly true wolfdogs anymore since the wolves are like over 10 generations gone in that breed (they were far back in the 1950s) so even if Oskari was a Czech Vlcak it doesn't surprise me that several dogs such as Blaze who have Oskari in their pedigree came out negative for wolf-content on the UC Davis. I actually question if the UC Davis could even detect any wolf-content in a pure Czech Vlcak myself since John did say that European wolves and American wolves do have a common wolf markers.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tatzel » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:25 pm

I wouldn't mind more wolf added either, as far as I know, +F5 generation 'wolfdogs' don't qualify as wolves anymore, and the current BBS' offspring would be F6 even, with either the sam or sire being a full german shepherd.
As long as health and temperaments are going to be beneficial for the breed.

Right now though the dogs differ greatly in looks from one another - they all look great, but not all look wolfy, or have the wrong coat lengh.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by TerriHolt » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:33 am

Honestly, wolfdogs that are ex wolfdogs and are now dogs (with all the paperwork to prove they are dogs), i wouldn't mind either... It's if they are used and it gets lied about (not giving people the option to choose yay or nay to owning one) that irritated me and the fear of losing my boy since 'somebody' wouldn't provide every bit of info known about (and still to this day will not admit it) to prove a lot are in fact dogs...

From what i've seen, the BBS does look beautiful but looks are not all... I've not really looked into the health and temperament dept yet... Didn't they originate from GSD's? Do they come with all the GSD defects? I think's i got's me a hot date with google :D
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:29 am

I contacted the Danish government about when they considered wolf+dog decedents no longer to be wolfdogs but domesticated dogs..

this was the answer I got
the Keeping of wolf - dogs in Denmark under Executive Order No. 1021 of 12.12.2002 on private ownership of specific animals, unless it concerns already approved breeds (see below).
The Order came into effect on 1 January 2003.
Of the notice shows which animals should not be kept private in Denmark. Below mentioned that predators (including wolves) should not observed.

Your question which concerns the interpretation of legislation relating to the crossing of wolves in existing breeds, have been forwarded to the Council of keeping of special animals.
The Council responded that:
After the entry into force of the said Order (1 January 2003) is not allowed to cross prohibited species in allowable species / types / hybrids. Progeny of such crosses will automatically be prohibited to keep.
Crossing Offspring of the above type born before this Order was enforced, as it was allowed to keep before 1 January 2003, will be allowed to keep in their lifetime.

The two mentioned breeds, Czechoslovak Wolfhound and Saarloos Wolfhound, is recognized breeds according to the requirements FCI register and is thus considered to be domestic dogs. Therefore, they are also allowed to keep the public in accordance with the above notice.

If there is doubt as to whether a given crossing is allowed, it must be approached in a specific assessment.
To be honest, I would personally keep the in-crossing of any further wolfdogs to an absolute minimum, so that I personally would not risk my dogs lives, since the law here apparently is a matter of estimation should my (or any other Danish owners) dogs be put in doubt weather they were dogs or wolfdogs..
The Czech and Saarloos not included in the above, although I for now still go by the opinion that it should be a specimen of great quality if those two should be added any further..

Tiantai wrote:the Československý vlčiak aren't exactly true wolfdogs anymore since the wolves are like over 10 generations gone in that breed
Actually Oxbow Léva-Nève (Oskari) is only F7 if you look up his pedigree
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Tiantai » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:23 am

But Oxbow Léva-Nève (Oskari) is still generations away within the current Tamaskans from his line such as Kana. Which stills means that the wolves from that line are very far away for any current dogs like Freyja or Wave from those lines themselves to be considered wolfdogs! As for the Jaeger x Kana pups, that's a different story as it will depend on the UC Davis.
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Re: New outcrosses?

Post by Nino » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:08 pm

Tiantai wrote:But Oxbow Léva-Nève (Oskari) is still generations away within the current Tamaskans from his line such as Kana. Which stills means that the wolves from that line are very far away for any current dogs like Freyja or Wave from those lines themselves to be considered wolfdogs! As for the Jaeger x Kana pups, that's a different story as it will depend on the UC Davis.
You have to take the closest not the ones that is most far away from the wolf, and Jackal and Dingo (as minimum) are still used in breeding and sons of Oskari which means they would be F8 and their offspring (eg. Sequia, Sølve and many others) and depending on which country even that is illegal (eg. Norway doesn't accept even Czech because they are too close to wolf and Denmark such a wolfdog would still be a matter of the people deciding that day)..

but really I was commenting on Czech's being more than 10 generations after pure wolves.. and really you cannot say this before all breeding animals are such and for now they are not..
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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by LiannaeLeagadh » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:00 am

I know It's been awhile since anything been posted here, but it's a topic I've been wondering about for awhile now. Bringing in new bloodlines. Mind you, I'm not a breeder, just posting a few breeds that I came across that I hadn't already seen mentioned here in this post, that I thought might spark some ideas, or at least kick start the discussion again.

The East Siberian Laika:
They range 22-26in(Males) & 20-24in(Females) so a bit shorter than Tams.
Temperment seems to be alright, overall, though they meant as more of a Hunting breed, "Highly aggressive towards large predators" can potentially be aggressive to strange dogs. Good companion dog, "easily trained"-soft methods, with unnecessary repetition being avoided. They mention that they have a strong 'herd' instinct, the manner it's used leads me to believe they mean pack-mentality.?
Soft Under coat, Long coarse dense straight top coat.
Tail can be either Ring Shaped or Sickle.
There does seem to be a lot of variation when it comes to their Color: based off of what info I can find on the standard for them these are all acceptable.
"Colour Black and tan, with light patches (karamis), grizzle, patched, ticked, white, grey, black, red and brown in all shades"
((The First Two Photos, I think resemble Tams & Utes, the third more of a White-GSD))
ImageImageImageImageImage
http://alldog360.blogspot.com/2012/11/e ... -dogs.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Siberian_Laika

the Greenland Dog ( a.k.a Grønlandshunden/Greenland Husky)
Height is closer to Tams, @ M-23-27in, F-20-24. 60-70lbs
Temperment- working/hunting breed.
"The predominant temperament qualities of the Greenland Dog are energy, mental strength and boldness. He is a tireless sled dog and while friendly to people, he is not particularly attached to any one person and not suitable as a guard dog. The breed has a strong instinct for hunting polar bear and seal." The also have a pack mentality, but "Greenland dog takes a very firm and confident owner to make a good pet"
Think bushy tail, has much more of a curve to it than Tams.
Double Coat, with a dense, straight, coarse outer coat and a soft undercoat. Any Colour.
ImageImageImageImage
http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/Breeds/N ... eenlandDog
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/greenlanddog.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_Dog

the Jämthund (Swedish Elkhound)
A more Wolfy-looking dog
Male-22-26 in(66-77lbs). Females -20-24 in(55-66 lbs).
Temperament: Intelligent, active, roamer. has a calm disposition, known for it's stoic demeanor, and forms a strong bond to their caretakers, making good family dogs, loves & is tolerable of children. Also Know to manifest dominant behavior towards other dogs and smaller pets.
"TAIL The tail is set high. It is of medium length and even thickness. It is carried curled, but not tightly twisted over or close on the back.
COAT The outer coat is rather close lying, but not flat. The undercoat is short, soft and light in color, preferably cream. The coat is smooth on the head and the front of the legs, longer on the neck, chest, tail and back of legs and thighs.
COLOR Light or dark grey, with characteristic light grey or cream markings on the sides of the muzzle, cheeks, throat, chest, belly, legs and under the tail."
ImageImage
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http://www.gopetsamerica.com/spitz/swed ... hound.aspx
http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/Breeds/N ... nd07012009
http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/breeds/dog- ... h-elkhound
http://www.sarahsdogs.com/breeds/swedish-elkhound/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A4mthund
Video: http://youtu.be/TW6DTaZYK6Q

Lastly,
Seppala Siberian Sleddog
They are smaller than Tams on average @ 21 - 25in some as tall as 27in
Temperament wise they are "active, merry and often quite inquisitive though sometimes showing great reserve with strangers. He is always gentle, tractable and docile; no tendency towards viciousness should ever be tolerated by the breeder. His desire to co-operate with his driver is noteworthy and his trainability is outstanding.Stable and serious temperament is characteristic; desirable specimens are neither nervous nor aggressive."
Color Varies as do markings
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
http://www.seppalakennels.com/standard.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppala_Siberian_Sleddog

Sorry it was so long
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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by arianwenarie » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:17 am

Liannae, thanks for posting your suggestions. I believe the East Siberian Laika has already been mentioned. However, the major problem I see that's common in all 4 breeds suggested is: curly tail. I know breeders have been working very hard on a straight tail, minimizing the curly tail seen in the Siberian Husky. My impression is that the majority of dogs in all 4 breeds have curly tails (some moreso than others) - pics shown shows tails curled to touch the back, which is way too much curl. Furthermore, the vast array of colors and potential for piebalds will bring us further from the breed standard for the Tamaskan.

East Siberian Laika - "Highly aggressive towards large predators; can potentially be aggressive to strange dogs." <-- this, about the temperament is what concerns me in addition to what I had mentioned above.

I believe the Greenland Husky might work, but I don't think anyone is keen on adding more pure husky into the breed as the foundation dogs are mainly of husky origin - dogs that were imported from Polar Speed. However, the temperament will be the issue here as you noted "Greenland dog takes a very firm and confident owner to make a good pet". I believe the Tamaskan is more geared towards being a companion dog with working abilities being a plus. (<--Someone correct me if I am wrong in this assumption.)

Swedish Elkhound - a bit too short and I think breeders are trying to have some Tamaskan lines gain a bit of height. ;) Curly tail is a big concern for me. And, this note about the temperament is also very concerning for me: "Also Know to manifest dominant behavior towards other dogs and smaller pets." I think most Tamaskans are very tolerant towards other dogs and small pets.

Seppala Siberian Sleddog - I have the thought stuck in my mind that these dogs come from Husky origins, and much of it. Probably something we do not want to re-introduce into the Tamaskan breed in large amounts. Also, the coat markings, masks, eyes are reminiscent of working line huskies (I'm thinking Alaskan Huskies) - blue eyes are a fault in the Tamaskan breed as is incorrect masking. The examples you posted of the Seppala Siberian Sleddog will likely introduce more faults into the Tamaskan.

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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Nimwey » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:34 am

I know at least one Laika breed was mentioned as an outcross (and the pros and cons of it) in this thread: http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=936
arianwenarie wrote:I know breeders have been working very hard on a straight tail, minimizing the curly tail seen in the Siberian Husky.
(My cursive.) I'm sorry, but why do people often say this? Siberian Huskies don't have curly tails! :P
At least not the "proper" version.

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Or are those all the "show version"? :P (Honest question, I'm not being sarcastic.)
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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by AZDehlin » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:38 am

Nimwey wrote: (My cursive.) I'm sorry, but why do people often say this? Siberian Huskies don't have curly tails! :P
At least not the "proper" version.
I was wondering this after watching the westminster this year... the husky in the ring had a perfectly straight tail. Also my cousins two huskies have nicer straighter tails than my Tamaskan.

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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by LiannaeLeagadh » Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:13 pm

Nimwey wrote:I know at least one Laika breed was mentioned as an outcross (and the pros and cons of it) in this thread: http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=936
arianwenarie wrote:I know breeders have been working very hard on a straight tail, minimizing the curly tail seen in the Siberian Husky.
(My cursive.) I'm sorry, but why do people often say this? Siberian Huskies don't have curly tails! :P
At least not the "proper" version.


Or are those all the "show version"? :P (Honest question, I'm not being sarcastic.)
True Huskies do not have a curly tail. the only "Huskies" Ive every seen personally with a curly tail have been cross breeds. Breed standard "Faults: A snapped or tightly curled tail; highly plumed tail; tail set too low or too high." It is carried in a sickled curve when held up though, some much more "curled" than others but thats a fault.
Out of the Four breeds I listed the first three are Spitz-type breeds, only the Seppala Siberian Sleddog is from the same ancestral lines as the Siberian Husky, which was split into Show & Work Lines.
Siberian Huskies where bred for more conformity in appearance for show while the Seppala was bred to work. So Seppala's are not as conformed in build & appearance as Siberian Huskies, side by side you would notice the physical differences out side of appearances between the two.
But Neither has a curly tail.
Seppala's also are longer in leg and body length than Siberian Huskies

Also there is a breeder, Wild Winter Siberian Huskies, who breed "dual-purpose" dogs, capable of the work the Seppala's do, but who are able to be taken to show as well.
http://wildwintersiberians.tripod.com
And even though there is A LOT Of variation n the breeds appearance, some of the Seppala's look a great deal like Tams
River View's Hurley Image

these two are the parents of a litter thats been planned for Summer/Fall 2013
Sire: Hartum's Escalade http://ourmales.tripod.com/sly.html Image
Dam: Ursala of Arcticsun http://arcticsun.tripod.com/SeppalaKennelPage.html Image

I know the masking isn't quite right, but Taking a Tam breeding with a Seppala from this pair, then breeding more Tam back in. Wouldn't that minimize the chances of that mask showing up?


few more Seppala Kennel links with photos of dogs:
http://www.deercreeksleddogs.com/males.html http://www.deercreeksleddogs.com/females.html

And thanks for that forum link :)
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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by arianwenarie » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:13 pm

LiannaeLeagadh wrote: these two are the parents of a litter thats been planned for Summer/Fall 2013
Sire: Hartum's Escalade http://ourmales.tripod.com/sly.html Image
Dam: Ursala of Arcticsun http://arcticsun.tripod.com/SeppalaKennelPage.html Image

I know the masking isn't quite right, but Taking a Tam breeding with a Seppala from this pair, then breeding more Tam back in. Wouldn't that minimize the chances of that mask showing up?
If a litter is planned from the dam and sire that you listed, then they're half-siblings (sire side)...I'm afraid of more piebalds cropping up from Sepp Tech's Lakota (sire). :P

I also wasn't aware of Siberian Huskies having straight tails...all the Sibes in the US, that I've seen, have tails that curl to touch their back. :?

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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by Valravn » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:42 pm

arianwenarie wrote: I also wasn't aware of Siberian Huskies having straight tails...all the Sibes in the US, that I've seen, have tails that curl to touch their back. :?
I've seen a lot of sibes with curled tails. I think those are probably from BYBs.

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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by LiannaeLeagadh » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:06 pm

True Siberian Huskies don't have the curled 'spitz-like' tails. When I live in Florida I did run into a "Breeder" who was selling what were supposed to be S.H. bred for a larger size, and they were bigger in height, but they were built closer to what Malamutes are versus huskies, and had a curled tail.

Alaskan Huskies:[Siberian X bred for racing]
ImageImage
Since it's not a "breed" but a 'sub-type' of the Siberian Husky there is no breed standard and breeders can breed them more or less as they see fit to obtain the desired dog for racing. SO they will very in things like size, & subsequently color depending on what they are mixed with, which is determined by what they are meant for (freight dogs, sprinters, and distance runners)

Alaskan Malamute: [Commonly mistaken for Siberian Huskies do to colors & markings <-- maybe this is what you saw?]
Weight Male 85 lb Female 75 lb: Height Male 25 inches Female 23 inches
ImageImage
Breed Standard: Tail Moderately high set, following line of spine at start then curving gently upwards. At rest may hang straight down. Well furred and carried over back when dog is working, not tightly curled to rest on back, nor short furred and carried like a fox brush, but giving appearance of a waving plume.

Siberian Huskies:
Weight Male 45–60 lbs Female 35–50 lbs Height Male 21–23.5 inches Female 20–22 inches
ImageImage
Breed Standard Tail Well furred or round fox brush shape set on just below level of topline and usually carried over back in a graceful sickle curve when dog at attention. When carried up, tail should not curl too tightly, nor should it curl to either side of body, or snap flat against back. hair on tail of medium length and approximately same length all round. A trailing tail is normal for dog when working or in repose.

There is also the Alaskan Klee Kai
Most people seem to refer to these as Alaskan Huskies or Miniature-Siberian Huskies. There are 3 types of these, and again
Toy:Up to 13inches _____________ Mini:13-15inches _____________ Standard: 15-17inches
ImageImageImage
Breed Standard: TAIL The tail should be well furred and set on just below the level of the topline. The preferred tail carriage is a loose curl, which falls to the center of the back or drapes to either side of the body. The tail may hang down when the dog is relaxed or in unfamiliar situations but forms a loose curl when the dog is alert or moving. Dark hairs at the tip of the tail are preferred.


I will say Now that I've gone through and started comparing photos of the different dogs and then the tams, I can see what is ment by not wanting the "husky curl". ((When I think Curled tail I think more snap-tail more spitz-like sorry))
Mally Snap Tail ---- Husky Sickle at play/attention ---- Tam at Play
Image

But aside from having the sickle at play/attention a husky should not have a curled tail.
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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by arianwenarie » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:17 pm

Valravn wrote:
arianwenarie wrote: I also wasn't aware of Siberian Huskies having straight tails...all the Sibes in the US, that I've seen, have tails that curl to touch their back. :?
I've seen a lot of sibes with curled tails. I think those are probably from BYBs.
I've seen some show dogs in the US with curled tails, all the dogs I've seen through the trainer I interned with (including her own) had curled tails. Not sure how to explain it, but I've never seen a Sibe IRL with a straight or sickle tail. XD

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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by LiannaeLeagadh » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:35 pm

Kind of in the same boat myself. xD just the opposite never seen them with anything other than the straight, & sickle tails
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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by TerriHolt » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:28 pm

Sibes over hear have straight tails more often than not. I've seen the odd one or 2 with a curled one but mostly straight...
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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by LiannaeLeagadh » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:44 pm

I guess overall it will depend on their bloodlines maybe? and the what the breeder decides to breed for :?
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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by arianwenarie » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:47 pm

TerriHolt wrote:Sibes over hear have straight tails more often than not. I've seen the odd one or 2 with a curled one but mostly straight...
Well shoot, it must either be a US thing or a Texas thing then. XD

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Re: Introducing new bloodlines

Post by LiannaeLeagadh » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:52 pm

arianwenarie wrote:Well shoot, it must either be a US thing or a Texas thing then. XD

Probably more of a Preference thing? Places I've live in and seen several huskies in, like Washington, Oregon, Florida, & North Carolina, all straight. Probably one of those, Ooh look at that dog it's nice! *goes & gets one*.
Next person same thing, probably from the same breeders.
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