VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

All topics pertaining to mating and whelping, as well as upcoming / planned litters.
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VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Blustag » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:11 pm

Up until now there have not been that many litters born and those that have have been carefully thought out and advice taken from the founder breeders.

Now... since I have in the last 2 months been approached by 'nameless' people who were looking to breed from a 'local' dog!!!

PLEASE for God's sake DONT let us go down the road that the NI and Utonagan people took of mating their dogs/bitches to 'local' dogs because they just didnt have to travel so far!!! This would be CATASTROPHIC for our breed.

There are now a growing number of Tamaskan in Europe and we HAVE to keep the standards up!

PLEASE consider EVERYTHING when you choose your Stud Dog for your Bitch. NOT just how far away the Stud Dog lives from you to save on travel and costs. This is definately NOT the way forward.

I myself will travel wherever for the right male as was demonstrated when I went to Germany with Tumanra and also Karsten travelled to me with Summer.
A friend of mine is flying herself and bitch over to USA for a mating.....not a Tamaskan might I add. Debby also travelled with Vixen all the way from Croatia to Holland.

This is 'extremely' important for the future of our breed

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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Sylvaen » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:38 pm

Good point.
While the hassle of traveling (and expense) can be off-putting, it IS worth the extra effort... not just for that resulting litter but also for the breed as a whole (new bloodlines, fresh combinations, etc). I would definitely suggest getting enough time off work so that IF (as happened with me) you end up getting the timing wrong, you can stay longer (if necessary) to ensure a successful mating. The first attempt is always a big learning curve: IF you get it right, it is well worth it. IF not, it can be a huge loss BUT what you lose financially (and with regards to time) you make up for in experience and lessons learned for the next time around. IF you have the opportunity to travel for a long-distance mating, which would be a more suitable match: GO FOR IT!!
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Rahne » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:19 pm

I have never even thought about using any other dog then a Tamaskan. Hmm, we do have a nice Jack Russel living across the street :lol:
I'm hoping to end up in the UK with Konah sometime this year!

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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Blustag » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:30 pm

Rahne wrote:I have never even thought about using any other dog then a Tamaskan. Hmm, we do have a nice Jack Russel living across the street :lol:
I'm hoping to end up in the UK with Konah sometime this year!
I was referring to only Tamaskan here not any other breed. Two Tamaskan owners were wondering about a local Tamaskan Dog... (Europe) We need people to look at the 'bigger picture' not their purse or convenience.

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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by SilverGhost » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:33 pm

If I ever would get the chance to breed with my future girl
of course I would spare neither trouble nor expense
to find the right registered tamaskan male 
it has to be a choosen male!;)

Rahne

Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Rahne » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:36 pm

Blustag wrote:
Rahne wrote:I have never even thought about using any other dog then a Tamaskan. Hmm, we do have a nice Jack Russel living across the street :lol:
I'm hoping to end up in the UK with Konah sometime this year!
I was referring to only Tamaskan here not any other breed. Two Tamaskan owners were wondering about a local Tamaskan Dog... (Europe) We need people to look at the 'bigger picture' not their purse or convenience.
Ohh ok, yes I agree that the distance shouldn't be the deciding factor. But if a local male is suitable for your female (Bloodlines, Health etc.) then it's not a problem right?

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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Blustag » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:41 pm

It is not only to do with health results but the finer things like what the male can improve on your female etc. Does your female have large ears...ok so use a male with small ears. There is an awful lot to consider when selecting your male. ALSO you need to look at what is 'behind' your female. Certain dogs may be doubled up...this is ok IF those dogs are also going to contribute to your litter but remember that not only the good comes through but the bad also. So you see good hip scores etc are vital but once you know those there is a much 'bigger' picture to consider. Anyone can contact the founder breeders for help as we know ALL the dogs behind ALL Tamaskan and can point you all in the right directions.

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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by AZDehlin » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:26 pm

Glad this topic was brought up... Great excuse to travel too :)

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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Jen » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:21 pm

Very true... I agree it would be so foolish to choose a stud dog for your bitch based on geography alone. Alot of people do in dog breeding though ,frequently using even their own dogs one would assume to save on stud fees and travel. However questionable as this is the is some great advantages to it such as truely knowing the day to day temperament of the stud and quite importantly for some bitches who can be a little nervous ,using a dog that is familiar to them to help to avoid a traumatic mating which no one wants for their best friends.

If there were two dogs of equal merit and suitablility for your girl and one was perhaps known to her and you and not far away and another you had only seen in pictures and didn't know the charictar of I dont think it would be unresonable to go for the former.

Like everything else for the truely thoughtful and caring breeder these points are just a few more to add to the long list you must consider before a mating. But then thats just my humble opinion!!

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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by WhiteElkDoe » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:52 am

Most definitely.
And like AZDehlin, I can't resist the chance to do some traveling.

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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by WhiteElkStag » Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:04 pm

WhiteElkDoe wrote:Most definitely.
And like AZDehlin, I can't resist the chance to do some traveling.
Seconded.

There are so many factors to consider when choosing the proper pairing. Health, lineage, physical characteristics and personality, just to name a few. Geography and travel expenses will be taken into account... but only as a small part of a much larger equation.
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by TeresaC » Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:03 pm

As a future breeder in the USA, I know there will be travelling involved. We have such a large country and the dogs are spread out. It just means that we have to help each other out and work with each other. And yes... a reason to road trip!!
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by GjenetCarro » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:02 am

TeresaC wrote:As a future breeder in the USA, I know there will be travelling involved. We have such a large country and the dogs are spread out. It just means that we have to help each other out and work with each other. And yes... a reason to road trip!!
If we get more in the tropical areas like Hawaii and Florida, you can double up as business and a vacay :roll: :lol:
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by JoshC » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:53 pm

Looks like I am staying home with the rest of the pack again LOL!! But not if it is Hawaii Then I go with

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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by EskyTheHusky » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:59 am

Do you guys do many AI matings in this breed?
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:23 am

EskyTheHusky wrote:Do you guys do many AI matings in this breed?
there was a small discussion on that hear http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=2013 not a big discussion tho :D
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by EskyTheHusky » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:53 am

Thanks for that TerriHolt, interesting reading.

Obviously given Australia's stringent quarantine laws, I can't see us having much of a gene pool without the use of A.I.
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:55 am

good point :D didn't think of it that way :oops:
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by EskyTheHusky » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:00 pm

It sucks being so isolated sometimes. :lol:
I know one of the first litters of Lapphunds here was imported in dam.
So that's another alternative for Aussies.
But again that has it's own disadvantages.
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:14 pm

Just wanted to BUMP this old topic, as it is still important and relevant... I feel it is best to use 'better quality' dogs that are located further away (using AI if necessary) than just to use any 'locally available' dog (especially if that dog is not be health tested, which would be in complete violation of TDR breeding rules).
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:12 am

So this must still be an issue? I'll beat the drum here and go further and say that any good breeder would want the best for the breed and take advantage of the few short years they have with their breeding female and breed them to the best possible stud--both for health and for conformation. In my opinion, doing otherwise is just producing pups for the sake of producing pups to sell. Period.
Perhaps we should have a discussion about doing AI, and who out there is willing to do it...who has arrangements made already, and who even has access to resources to do AI. *I'll create another topic* :D

[edit: add topic link]: http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic ... 923#p67923
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Shadowgate » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:20 am

You wouldn't actually have any breeders that would consider doing a breeding with an unhealth tested dog right? :shock:

I would be very disappointed in a breeder that would choose to do a breeding because it was local...and that was the only reason for the choice of the dog. That would be breeding for money and not for the betterment of the breed. It is the same difference as having a litter and selling all the puppies as pets instead of making sure some will stay intact to hopefully forward the line and expand the gene pool. I have a BIG problem with people who only breed for anything other than good solid breeding choices that support a good future for the breed.

It is a question I often ask newer Shiloh breeders, and a few seasoned ones, when they are excited about a breeding or a stud they want to use...what is this pairing offering the gene pool? Where can this litter be bred next? Does this breeding offer the gene pool enough or is it a breeding of convenience? Small gene pools get bottlenecked if proper attention isn't paid to the future of the gene pool.

Being a conformation nut I can totally agree with what many have said here about picking the right dog, not just based on one thing. When I am looking for a stud dog there are many factors involved. Since I know my bitch then I have a list of things that I want out of a future stud dog. With Health being the most important factor it would usually be looked at first. Once the lines are found to be compatible for health then I start to compare and dig into other things like temperament, prey drive, play drive and conformation etc. of both dogs in the pairing with the goal of not doubling up on any faults or undesirable traits. (It is assumed at this point both dogs have passed their health testing) Naturally the closest dogs are the most convenient place to start looking, and the least amount of stress for your girl, but you don't have to stop there....

I'm guessing that with such a tiny gene pool there are few repeated breedings?? Not taking the extra steps for a good breeding isn't much different from breeders who have an inhouse stud and just repeat the breeding, again and again...doesn't do much for the gene pool. (Ok so I am a gene pool junkie.lol)

I am assuming many breedings would/could be done AI.
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Shadowgate » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:21 am

Something else extremely important to a small gene pool...well any gene pool really... is making sure everyone isn't using the same stud.

Dog "X" might be the best match for your dog but if he was also the best match for 4 other dogs this year and there were, for example, only about 10 litters a year...the gene pool would get bottlenecked in a hurry, especially if the "theme" continued where one or two studs were siring half or even a quarter of the litters each year.

Good breeding is not only planning what you think is best for you but also taking into consideration where the rest of the breed is going...supporting some of the other litters by creating compatible puppies is as important to the gene pool and the big picture :) (still using a suitable stud, I mean we are in trouble here if there is only going to be one good stud for any given bitch)
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:21 am

Thanks for your input Cheryl, I must say that I agree with everything you wrote 100%!! :D
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:42 pm

Me too. I actually want to look into what studs are overseas that we could try to do AI with. Not sure what the opportunities are, so I posted in another thread :D
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Nino » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:46 pm

I agree too, before I got the sad news of Søves hip scoring and thereby not being able to breed her I was already in contact with one stud owner (or rather future stud owner when she get's him scored, he's already DM clear) in UK (as a note I live in Denmark and the trip to UK is not short at all) for her first mating and a Stud dog owner from US whom I wanted get AI from in a couple of years when he had turned 5 (I wanted to make sure he was healthy before breeding to my bitches line)..
Unfortunately now this won't be possiblr, but I do wan't to keep both in my back hand, as I am looking to add a new bitch to my "pack" next year and depending on lines, health etc. I would very much like still to use both, as they in my mind are great speciments AND so far either not used or only used very little (plus the US stud would bring something to Europe that we don't have at this moment in time) :)
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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Gaby » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:00 pm

Nino wrote:I agree too, before I got the sad news of Søves hip scoring and thereby not being able to breed her I was already in contact with one stud owner (or rather future stud owner when she get's him scored, he's already DM clear) in UK (as a note I live in Denmark and the trip to UK is not short at all) for her first mating and a Stud dog owner from US whom I wanted get AI from in a couple of years when he had turned 5 (I wanted to make sure he was healthy before breeding to my bitches line)..
Unfortunately now this won't be possiblr, but I do wan't to keep both in my back hand, as I am looking to add a new bitch to my "pack" next year and depending on lines, health etc. I would very much like still to use both, as they in my mind are great speciments AND so far either not used or only used very little (plus the US stud would bring something to Europe that we don't have at this moment in time) :)
What a horrible news Nino! :( What are her scores? Did you anounce this already and did I missed that topic? I'm so very sorry for you and Sølve. Is she having any trouble as far as you can see with her hips or can't you see anything? I hope she doesn't have too much trouble now or in the future.

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Re: VITALLY IMPORTANT FOR FUTURE BREEDERS

Post by Nino » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:42 am

@Gaby
I haven't officially announced it yet no, it's been a bit troublesome with the timing and exam etc. which means I have yet to make a public announcement about it and have been waiting till my exam was over (hopefully next week) to write Blustag (which I really don't expect to get anything from, but regardless it is the right thing to contact the breeder of a dog that on paper has severe hip dysplasia)
The score you can see in the database, I am still on the road of wanting a second opinion, as I do not experience any problems or pains with her, and if they are indeed not as bad it will have effect on what she will be allowed to do in the future for no good reason..
Also you are on my list of people I want to contact about it when I feel I have the time, as you are one of the people I know that have experience with living with an active HD dog, also you might know more than the general person (plus I might like to get on the list for a future Mila pup for breeding ;) )
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