To breed or not to breed

All topics pertaining to mating and whelping, as well as upcoming / planned litters.
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Janboreeni
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To breed or not to breed

Post by Janboreeni » Tue May 11, 2010 9:54 pm

Hi everyone,

I did original start this thread in the old forum long before our Tam was even conceived ;) , but now it has become a much more serious decision.

Me and my husband dearly love Ailsa, but the time has come to decide whether or not we should have her spayed. I'm hoping for lots of opinion on this, the pros and cons etc, because we think she's beautiful (as all Tams are), true to the standard and that she has a lovely, mild temperament - all attributes that should be carried on down the Tamaskan line.
But then we are also aware, as first time dog owners, that we are dangerously inexperienced in this whole area.

In an ideal world we'd like her to have a litter of pups to help widen the gene pool and also to know that her progeny are out there (maybe keeping one), then have her spayed to spend the rest of her life as a loved family pet. But in reality I suspect you either go into breeding wholeheartedly or not at all.

Please understand the cost of spaying her is not an issue whatsoever, it just seems so sad to do it to her when the Tam gene-pool is still small. On the other hand, it could help prolong her life and also does away with the complications around her heat cycle.

I'm hoping for lots of advice here - please be as frank as you can.

Thank you very much in advance.

Jan
-X-

PS. Part of me sometimes wishes she did have fault to make the decision easier. :roll:

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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Rahne » Tue May 11, 2010 10:26 pm

In an ideal world we'd like her to have a litter of pups to help widen the gene pool and also to know that her progeny are out there (maybe keeping one), then have her spayed to spend the rest of her life as a loved family pet. But in reality I suspect you either go into breeding wholeheartedly or not at all.
Why wouldn't this be a possibility? If you would like to breed Ailsa just once and do it in the right way then I don't see why not.

I understand that you'll get her spayed if you decide not to breed her? There are some pros but also cons to it, it's a hard decision. I decided for myself that I will not have Konah spayed unless it is absolutely necessary (for medical reasons).

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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Tarheel » Wed May 12, 2010 2:53 am

I would seek advise from Lynn and Jennie. THey can make a recommendation on your Girls' structure and temperament. They can also advise you of what stud to seek out and use to help better the breed. I whole heartedly their advise and would ask them to help you to decide weather to breed or not to breed.
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Sylvaen » Sat May 15, 2010 3:26 am

Janboreeni wrote:it could help prolong her life...
While this train of thought was very widely circulated and believed for many years, new research has actually shown that unspayed dogs may live in fact longer than their spayed counterparts!
Spaying is a procedure few of us question. This year alone, thousands of female dogs will undergo the hysterectomy operation, which removes the ovaries and uterus. Chances are your own pet has already undergone these removals.

A groundbreaking new study, however, may change the way we view this common surgery.

Longevity and Ovaries Linked

Women tend to live longer than men do, but did you know this life span edge holds true for female dogs too? "Like women, female dogs in our study had a distinct survival advantage over males," according to project leader Dr. David Waters, Ph.D., a veterinarian, director of the Gerald P. Murphy Cancer Foundation and associate director of Purdue University's Center on Aging and the Life Course.

Nevertheless, female dogs do not always reach the same age. That became obvious when Waters and his team studied information on the oldest living pet dogs in the United States. (Data on these canine seniors is tracked by the Center for Exceptional Longevity Studies.) Waters had a nagging suspicion: "We think that ovaries are part of a system that impacts longevity and perhaps the rate of aging."

To test out the theory, Waters, who is also a professor in the department of veterinary clinical sciences at Purdue, and his team analyzed 119 rottweiler "centenarians," which were elderly dogs that survived to 13 years. That's 30 percent longer than the life span of most breed members. "We found that female rottweilers that kept their ovaries for at least six years were four times more likely to reach exceptional longevity compared to females who had the shortest lifetime ovary exposure."

Yet another study, on more than 29,000 women, came to a similar conclusion. Dr. William Parker of the John Wayne Cancer Institute in Santa Monica, Calif., led that research. "For the last 35 years, most doctors have been routinely advising women undergoing hysterectomy to have their ovaries removed to prevent ovarian cancer," he said. "We believe that such an automatic recommendation is no longer warranted."

Important to Weigh the Pros and Cons

When it comes to longevity, Waters, Parker and their colleagues believe it's worth it for a female to keep her ovaries. Women who retain their ovaries for at least 50 years often live longer than women who don't, according to the new findings. For dogs, the comparable age for keeping the ovaries intact, at least for large breeds like rottweilers, is about 6 or 7 years.

Waters is quick to point out that all women and dog owners should weigh the pros and cons of keeping ovaries and should initiate an informed discussion on the upside and downside with their doctor and their pet's veterinarian.

The Benefits of Spaying

Linda Lasky, a registered veterinary technician at Montclair Veterinary Hospital in Oakland, Calif., said she is not aware of any veterinary hospital that performs a partial hysterectomy on dogs. Owners must therefore choose between three options:

1. Do not have the dog spayed.
2. Spay the dog after she is at least 6 years old.
3. Spay the dog before she reaches puberty, which is the commonly accepted practice.

Lasky strongly recommends the third option, which she said helps prevent two potentially fatal health problems: mammary tumors and pyometra, a canine uterine infection. Spaying also prevents certain behavioral problems related to dogs going into heat. The most obvious benefit of spaying is that it curbs canine overpopulation.

Other Ways of Extending Your Dog's Life

Through his Gerontology Training Program for DVMs, Waters works with veterinarians to address the findings about ovaries and other longevity matters. He says participants in the program also "emerge as effective educators of pet owners on issues pertaining to lifestyle choices that promote healthy longevity."

Lasky agrees that lifestyle choices, such as what owners feed their dogs and how they care for them, can also make a huge difference in the quality and length of their pets' lives. Over the years, she's noticed that "companion animals are living longer and longer" due to improved medical help, quality nutrition, and love and care provided by owners. Therefore, while retention of ovaries remains a hotly debated issue, spayed dogs may still have a chance at earning a coveted spot in the oldest canines database at the Center for Exceptional Longevity Studies.
http://www.koamtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=12103617

If she were a crossbreed mutt or a dog without papers then I'd say absolutely have her spayed and don't let her breed as there are too many unwanted crossbreed mutts already in the world. However, as she is a pedigree Tamaskan with papers (and since the genepool is so limited and pups are in such high demand) I think that, as long as she is fit and healthy, I don't see the need for spaying her. Of course, heats are a hassle to deal with so that might be one major factor... but if you can put up with the nuisance and make sure there are no accidental matings with neighborhood dogs, etc. and she stays healthy, then you might as well leave her intact, just incase you decide to breed her one day. :)
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by RoyAM » Tue May 18, 2010 8:22 am

its a difficult decission, our Nebraska was spayed due to 3 seasons in a year, once spayed she had bladder trouble and for about 6 years she often had acidents without even knowing it.

she would be sleeping in the house and when she got up you would often find a damp patch or even when walking about you would see a few drips, this does not happen to all spayed bitches but it does effect a percentage.

Although ours are malamutes and not tamaskan's there was also a huge difference in her coat and she produced an extreamly thick coat and seldom casts, she has been like this for almost 13 years now.

spaying is an answer but there can also be complications which your vet should make you aware off before deciding on the procedure.

if following this through, enquire how much experience your vet has.


.

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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Misaya » Tue May 18, 2010 9:20 am

We have just had Mischa spayed, on 30/04/10. We really havent the time in the foreseeable future to cope with having a litter. The deciding factor really was that Ayasca is her full brother (different litter) and with them both being house dogs, it was just too risky not to have her done. We did get her the contraceptive injection for a couple of seasons, but it is not a permanent solution. Also she has not been hip scored.

Anyway, she is absolutely fine, and healed up very quickly. She was actually fine by the next day, I was quite surprised how quickly she got over it. Obviously she was to be kept from jumping about as much as possible. No problems with leakages so far. Obviously I dont know if it has affected her coat yet, although she has a bald belly at the moment which looks a bit odd, but it is starting to come back in.
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by blufawn » Tue May 18, 2010 9:57 am

I have also been told that spaying may cause trouble with weight as well. They tend to gain weight after spaying and it is harder to get rid of.
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Misaya » Tue May 18, 2010 1:26 pm

Yes, I think that is also true. We thought she was a bit chubby and the vet said she should lose a couple of kgs and we'd need to keep an eye on her weight with the spaying. We have cut her down a bit and will just have to watch her figure. She doesnt eat a huge amount and is very active, so I'm not sure why she is overweight.
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:13 am

Some more links that might be helpful.... :)

The Great Spay Debate:
http://www.dogchannel.com/dog-magazines ... ebate.aspx

At What Age Should I Spay or Neuter... What are the Advantages and Disadvantages of Neutering my Pet?:
http://www.2ndchance.info/spayneuter.htm
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by MoirAran » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:48 am

Had my shepard spayed, it was neccessay, coz otherwise she would have died of infection to her uterus. Otherwise I would never had spayed her. Never noticed any difference after spayed.

Moira is spayed last april. She also had an emergecy surgery. Infection of her uterus and the area around the uterus. It was a difficult and heavy surgery, a lot of blood loss, but she made it.
Already we notice a lot of changes. Her coat is different, more thick and not as beautiful as before. Wants to eat all the time and now she is always trying to steal food in the kitchen :lol: And we have to give her less food, coz she is gaining weigth fast now. And she is a bit more spicy, poor Aran :mrgreen:

Having a litter is a beautiful experience, so special. But also a lot of work ;) Much more that I would think of. The hardest part, besides no sleep, to choose the right pup owners. Luckely we had some great advice and help from our breeder.

I am sure your breeder wants to help you out if you decide to breed with your dog.

But iin the end it's your decision. You must have a good feeling about your dog, regarless what the decision will be.

Good luck
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Misaya » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:04 pm

MoirAran wrote:Already we notice a lot of changes. Her coat is different, more thick and not as beautiful as before. Wants to eat all the time and now she is always trying to steal food in the kitchen :lol: And we have to give her less food, coz she is gaining weigth fast now.
We haven't noticed any difference in Mischa's coat since she was spayed. But she has gained weight and in spite of the fact that we have cut her food down and she is constantly on the go it doesn't seem to shift. She was a bit chubby anyway and did like her food even before. I guess her metabolism is slow. Probably a girl thing :)

We are hoping she will lose some over the holidays as she will get lots of walking and running about hopefully.
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by JonathanJ » Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:00 pm

:?: I'm not so much worried about the future for breeding 'Tsonata as I am uncertain about the future females that may have available. Terri and I had Carina first and as many of you now, she passed away. They were to be ( I think ) a rare couple as they would have been genetically distinct. I take heart in the knowledge though, that the TDR has kept such good records that the likely hood of a pairing too close together is quite remote.

Genetic diversity means breed viability, health and strength. Our first duty though is to the health and happiness of our dogs. If it means that we won't be able to breed, so be it. It won't change our minds or our hearts to the wonderful animals!! :)
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Hawthorne » Sun May 15, 2011 9:08 pm

Is there a way to prevent pyometra in unspayed females? What steps do you take to prevent this?
Thanks for any insight.
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Blustag » Mon May 16, 2011 6:09 pm

Spaying can cause the coat to become very soft instead of harsh as it should be. Can also cause obesity. I am not an advocate of spaying or castration and would rather put up with the seasons once or twice a year than have a female go through a major operation which it is... same as a human. Also there is the risk of infection afterwards along with other things. Unless you feel that you cannot cope with the blood then DONT do it.

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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by kendrrat » Tue May 17, 2011 9:54 am

what about neutering a male? just curious what everyone thinks about if/when that's appropriate.

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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by blufawn » Tue May 17, 2011 11:26 am

I would never have any sort of unnecessary surgery done before a dog reaches 12 months.
You would not risk surgery on a child when it could live happily until an adult and have it done then.
Although male castration is a lot less invasive than a female spay I would still def wait until 12 months old because of the risk with just knocking them out.

As to wheather or not they should be castrated/spayed I think that is entirely down to the owner. I would never castrate a boy unless health issues made me. If I had a girl alone in the house I would not spay her, but then if I had an entire boy and a girl and I knew I would never breed from the girl I may consider it just to make life easier.

But every handsome boy thats castrated is another loss to the Tamaskan world, while we cant expect people with females to be having litters when their lifestyles cannot cope, it costs nothing to keep your male intact should his services ever be required..... and the cost of one mating would cover the cost of his health checks.
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Blustag » Tue May 17, 2011 1:11 pm

There is no need to castrate this breed as they are not wanderers nor are they aggressive to other dogs. I have all my boys entire including my oldie who is 10yrs and none of them give me any trouble whatsoever. As Jenny states we are very short on entire males both here in UK and Europe and USA.

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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Rahne » Tue May 17, 2011 10:52 pm

A lot of people think they will need to spay/castrate when the dog isn't going to be used for breeding so you can't have accidents etc. I think it's a pity so many good males are not being used for breeding. It's not that much work to have a few health tests done, and then reserve a few hours for a female to visit you. You will even get payed for it ;)

By the way, if you only want to prevent your dog making puppies you can also do a vasectomy. That way the dog will be infertile but will still have its testicles so you won't have the hormonal changes (bad coat, more weight, different temperament etc.).

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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by jyotin » Wed May 18, 2011 12:58 am

Regarding castration, I've heard how it makes a dog less "aggressive" and will make him more calm, but to be honest after what happened with Odin I would never have a dog go through surgery again if I had the choice. If they require it for medical reasons, then of course by all means do the surgery, but if they are not living with a female and have no health concerns I don't see the need to do an elective surgery. Of course everyone has their personal reasonings but if there isn't a concern for an unwanted accidental mating, I see no reason to put a dog through an elective surgery.
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by HiTenshi16 » Wed May 18, 2011 1:02 am

I wish I would of known all this information before having Ulric fixed :(
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Blustag » Wed May 18, 2011 12:43 pm

jyotin wrote:Regarding castration, I've heard how it makes a dog less "aggressive" and will make him more calm, but to be honest after what happened with Odin I would never have a dog go through surgery again if I had the choice. If they require it for medical reasons, then of course by all means do the surgery, but if they are not living with a female and have no health concerns I don't see the need to do an elective surgery. Of course everyone has their personal reasonings but if there isn't a concern for an unwanted accidental mating, I see no reason to put a dog through an elective surgery.
This is not always the case. If your dog is aggressive dosnt mean that castration will fix that. There are tablets that can be given to a dog with problems that produce the same effects as a castration. These are given as a trail castration period. IF there is no change then no point in castrating. IF there is a change then castration can go ahead. For my mind I would rather rehabilitate the offender :lol:

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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by kendrrat » Wed May 18, 2011 7:25 pm

i was just talking to my mom about this and she seems to think that intact males will be territorial and tend to "mark" their homes and other places? any truth to that? thats her personal experience (mostly with small dogs)

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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by TerriHolt » Wed May 18, 2011 7:46 pm

i know cats do but never had an intact male dog before...

i'd only get sam done for medical reasons or if he started violating everything or anyone in sight and i couldn't stop him. my aunty/family friend had a dog like that, went to 5 different trainers, a month at each and nothing made any difference. she had him "fixed" and after a month he stopped.

i know it's a small minority of dogs like that so i think sam will remain intact :D ... besides anything else, i had my female gsd done and she gained weight like someone blowing up a balloon... nothing i could do (besides starve her) to keep her weight down.

but i was thinking... does it not frustrate them to get the urges but not be able to do anything about it???
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Nino » Wed May 18, 2011 9:34 pm

Kovo only marked outside exept for a few times where he was new places..

but he's not a Tamaskan soo
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Blustag » Sat May 28, 2011 3:41 pm

TerriHolt wrote:i know cats do but never had an intact male dog before...

i'd only get sam done for medical reasons or if he started violating everything or anyone in sight and i couldn't stop him. my aunty/family friend had a dog like that, went to 5 different trainers, a month at each and nothing made any difference. she had him "fixed" and after a month he stopped.

i know it's a small minority of dogs like that so i think sam will remain intact :D ... besides anything else, i had my female gsd done and she gained weight like someone blowing up a balloon... nothing i could do (besides starve her) to keep her weight down.

but i was thinking... does it not frustrate them to get the urges but not be able to do anything about it???
I hope you dont castrate Sam ;) I was VERY impressed with him when I saw him last week and he has GREAT promise as a future stud health tests ok of course.

No it dosnt frustrate them unless you have a bitch in season in your house :lol: As I have said before this isnt a breed that you need to castrate.

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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Sylvaen » Sat May 28, 2011 10:21 pm

blufawn wrote:I would never castrate a boy unless health issues made me.
I agree with this... but then I'd include monorchidism / hip dysplasia / epilepsy / etc as 'heath issues' that warrant castration since they wouldn't be suitable candidates for breeding. If the male is totally healthy and has no issues, I don't see the point in castration as someone, somewhere, could always use (and buy) his 'services' for their female. :)
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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Wave2Tuffy » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:42 am

Wave was "marking" and that behavior was corrected. My husband would take him into the local Petsmart and he would lift his leg......Wave, not my husband, :lol: :lol: :lol: and he would act like nothing could be done about it. WRONG. Just like house breaking a pet you teach them NO. Wave can go into any store or establishment & no longer lifts his leg...nor does my husband :lol: :lol: :lol: I am sooo glad my husband is not on this forum because he would probably want a divorce after those comments! :lol: :lol: :lol: Training is key & castration is not the fix all

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Re: To breed or not to breed

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:32 am

:lol: :lol:
Wave2Tuffy wrote:Training is key & castration is not the fix all
This is true. Jasper doesn't mark at home (he never has) but, despite being castrated, he used to mark whenever we'd take him to Pet Centar (jumbo pet store) - he would urinate indoors on the corners / edges of the aisles and on the stacked bags of dog food etc. We soon put a stop to it by telling him "NO" in a firm voice and moving him to the center of the aisles - he only wants to mark on corners and if he can't reach something to pee on then he simply won't mark. After a few practice runs he pretty much figured out not to do it anymore... we still keep a close eye on him though, just in case he forgets. :oops:
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