Russian "Tame Foxes"

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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Tiantai » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:44 am

Well I haven't seen any photos of them, I've only seen the white, grey, spotty, and black ones.
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Luccistar » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:15 am

Here are some red colored Russian domestic foxes. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_f98opUNuVXc/T ... x+cubs.jpg
http://www.google.ca/imgres?um=1&hl=en& ... IBA&zoom=1
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... t-dog.html this one is actually also the first fox to have been imported in the US from the Institute, now, her name is Anya.
http://siberiantimes.com/home/born-in-s ... ve-my-fox/
hope this helps :)

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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Tiantai » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:47 am

Aww ♥ so adorable. Thank you very much for showing me those pictures. It seems the photos of red ones have been hiding from me for ages :lol: but I'm happy to have finally seen it
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Czertice » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:53 am

Ever since I have heard about the Siberian tame foxes I wondered what it would be like to have one. When the scientists first announced that they will start selling them to pet owners, I was very happy. I'll be able to get one! But now that I know the price... well, maybe I'll be able to afford one in the next life. :D
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Luccistar » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:28 pm

After watching videos of Russian domestic foxes, I can't find any difference between their general behavior and my (not genetically) domestic foxes.
The only ''advantage'' to have a Russian domestic is that they're genetically tame; if you lose them in the wild they won't become skittish and aggressive at the sight of a human, they will rather wag their tails and be happy to see someone, unlike (not genetically) domestic foxes who can be bought almost everywhere, those become wild when lost.

Also, Russian d. foxes don't have to be handled since 4 weeks old to get a bond with you, they require less energy when they are young. However, once both (Russian and normal) are used to you, they will act the SAME. So personally, I think I'll just save 8000$ and get a tame fox instead!

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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Czertice » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:45 pm

Luccistar wrote:After watching videos of Russian domestic foxes, I can't find any difference between their general behavior and my (not genetically) domestic foxes.
The only ''advantage'' to have a Russian domestic is that they're genetically tame; if you lose them in the wild they won't become skittish and aggressive at the sight of a human, they will rather wag their tails and be happy to see someone, unlike (not genetically) domestic foxes who can be bought almost everywhere, those become wild when lost.

Also, Russian d. foxes don't have to be handled since 4 weeks old to get a bond with you, they require less energy when they are young. However, once both (Russian and normal) are used to you, they will act the SAME. So personally, I think I'll just save 8000$ and get a tame fox instead!
Well, that's a consolation for me.
I cannot have any fox in a forseeable future anyway, so maybe the prices will drop until then...
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Luccistar » Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:24 am

Let's hope for it, Czertice! I'd love a Georgian white (white with black spots) fox, and only the Institute has them (bleh).
Also, an extra info, if any of you is interested to know. The Russian Institute also genetically domesticated MINKS (with many different colors, who are tamer than a pet ferret) and are currently still working on domesticating OTTERS. I only know of one mink that was successfully imported as a pet in the US, up to know...

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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Tiantai » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:05 am

There was one point in time when I was wondering if it would be possible to cross one of these domestic foxes with the fennec foxes but now I know that the two are completely different species with different numbers of chromosomes; red foxes including the domestic ones have 38 while the fennec have 64 so basically they cannot hybridize.
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Luccistar » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:06 am

Off topic, I always wondered if it were possible to successfully breed an American grey fox with a red fox.

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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by TerriHolt » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:22 pm

I've never understood why humans have to interfere with the wonders of nature... If a fox were to be domesticated it would happen over time not while they were stuck in cages so they could barely move... How scared the aggressive foxes must have been is unthinkable...
Luccistar wrote:and are currently still working on domesticating OTTERS.
Why? What is the reason for this? So humans can get what they want yet again? Why not domesticate all wild... I'll take a tiger and a lion please :roll:

I'm sorry, i guess i just don't see why or how this can be a good thing...
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Luccistar » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:40 pm

TerriHolt wrote:I've never understood why humans have to interfere with the wonders of nature... If a fox were to be domesticated it would happen over time not while they were stuck in cages so they could barely move... How scared the aggressive foxes must have been is unthinkable...
The aggressive foxes are actually not scared, they are aggressive only. They WANT to attack you, but are not scared. The ones that are scared are the few wild foxes they keep..
TerriHolt wrote:Why? What is the reason for this? So humans can get what they want yet again? Why not domesticate all wild... I'll take a tiger and a lion please :roll:

I'm sorry, i guess i just don't see why or how this can be a good thing...
No, you really got it wrong! The reason they started domesticating these animals was to study evolution, learn what happened and how it happened with the wolf's domestication and experiment what domestication did on animals (change of color, shape, etc.)
It's actually a very important experiment. It was even mentioned in National Geographic!
They never wanted to sell any of the animals to public as pets, however, since the lead scientist died, and they are running out of money BUT the project is not yet over, they decided to get some more funds by selling the foxes and minks to responsible owners. The money is only used for their project that is not done, and very important; they must feed the animals and care for them.
Also, they had so many foxes at one point in the experiment, they had to send some at a fur farm, and it broke their hearts to see such friendly animals being killed. It's really not for the pet-purpose or because they want to get rich!

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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Katlin » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:15 pm

TBH when I look at the colors I think they're pushing it. Some look almost exactly identical...you'd have to be an über crazy fox lover the be able to name them all.

As for what you're saying Terri....well I kinda agree. If they wanted to study them then why are they being sold from anywhere from $8000-$45000. I'm not sure about that. I could feed my 3 cats and dog all a really high quality diet (Acana Ranchlands for Snoopy and Acana Pacifica for the cats) for under $150 a month.

And the fact they had to sell them to a fur farm? Another point that I just don't buy. If they had too many foxes they shouldn't have bred them in the first place. They could have given them to zoos, ect.
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Luccistar » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:26 pm

They are selling them for $8000 to the USA. Only because they have to pay for the WHOLE shipping fee and the animal's spaying, vaccination etc.
To other places like Europe, the place is only $500 because they don't have to go through such a trouble to be able to ship them legally.

Where did you get the $45000 from? They have never sold any animal at that price!

They didn't sell them to a fur farm, they had to GIVE them for free at that fur farm, due to the lack of space and money to care for them all.
I think you don't know what the whole experiment is about... they HAVE to breed the foxes in order to select the human-orientated behaviors and thus, understand and explore the principle of domestication.
They have given some foxes to zoos, actually, but zoos aren't that interested in foxes, so they had to find another way to re-home them. There are quite a few zoos in Russia and Europe who have Russian domestic foxes.

It all makes sense

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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Katlin » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:04 pm

Luccistar wrote:They are selling them for $8000 to the USA. Only because they have to pay for the WHOLE shipping fee and the animal's spaying, vaccination etc. To other places like Europe, the place is only $500 because they don't have to go through such a trouble to be able to ship them legally.
I just want to look at this. So the cost to ship an animal is anywhere from $250 - $500. Spaying / Neutering is about $150-$400 depending on where you are, vaccines are maaaaaybe $200. I think $8000 is really pushing it. Perhaps there is something I don't know about selling these guys...actually I'm sure there is LOTS I don't know :lol: I've never had the desire to own a fox, though they are quite cute and smart from what I hear :)
Where did you get the $45000 from? They have never sold any animal at that price!
Not sure where I saw that, I'll try to find that again.
They didn't sell them to a fur farm, they had to GIVE them for free at that fur farm, due to the lack of space and money to care for them all.
Doesn't matter, the fact remains that they slaughtered their foxes. That, too me, is the ultimate of bad decision making, bad planning, and bad organization and because of that...those poor little guys / gals all had to die.
due to the lack of space and money to care for them all
Sounds like a puppy / fox mill. Trust me I DO understand the experiment, I think it's a great idea...but as every responsible breeder will tell you: you must always plan to keep the entire litter.
It all makes sense
Maybe to you, not to me. Sorry, but that's my opinion.
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Sylvaen » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:38 pm

Luccistar wrote:To other places like Europe, the place is only $500 because they don't have to go through such a trouble to be able to ship them legally.
That's good to know... though I'd like an unspayed (and unrelated) breeding pair - lol :D
Katlin wrote:
They didn't sell them to a fur farm, they had to GIVE them for free at that fur farm, due to the lack of space and money to care for them all.
Doesn't matter, the fact remains that they slaughtered their foxes. That, too me, is the ultimate of bad decision making, bad planning, and bad organization and because of that...those poor little guys / gals all had to die.
due to the lack of space and money to care for them all
Sounds like a puppy / fox mill. Trust me I DO understand the experiment, I think it's a great idea...but as every responsible breeder will tell you: you must always plan to keep the entire litter.
It all makes sense
Maybe to you, not to me. Sorry, but that's my opinion.
Most research laboratories do operate like mills - heck, in all respects it IS a fox farm... (they were bred as part of an experiment). I don't like fur farms or farms that supply research laboratories (such as those that breed test mice or beagles) but at least the general public does have a chance to purchase these domestic foxes legally.
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by TerriHolt » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:09 am

Luccistar wrote:It's actually a very important experiment.
I guess i don't see why this is so need to know they are treat like this...
Luccistar wrote:It was even mentioned in National Geographic!
To be fair they even take Cesar Millan :? That is no proof of importance to me as Nat Geo has gone way down in my book... not even on the same page...
Luccistar wrote:they had to send some at a fur farm
So, they milled so many they had to send some off to be, most likely, skinned alive after been dipped in boiling water? And people support this???

So it's more horrific than i first thought with the cages, i don't think no curiosity is worth this... Those poor poor animals. :(


The experiment wouldn't be so bad, in fact a great idea... But i wouldn't even keep a guinea pig in cages like that never mind a wild animal... And to send them off to a painful slaughter because the people in charge of their welfare bred too many?

The original domestication process of wolves wasn't rushed so how do they know the results are accurate? Given more time, a natural domestication process and time, the results might be different... Also, the original domestication didn't result in farmed animals and slaughtered as a result...

The foxes sold to the public, are they all fixed before they are sent... It's just like people to quire 2 and breed the hell out of them for profit :(

But why otters? Why are they been put through this too out of curiosity? (genuine curiosity)...
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Hawthorne » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:51 pm

Luccistar wrote:Off topic, I always wondered if it were possible to successfully breed an American grey fox with a red fox.
They aren't even in the same genus...
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Luccistar » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:08 am

Hawthorne, woops... you're right, I feel silly now :l

However, arctic foxes are alopex, and red foxes are vulpes, but, with artificial insemination, they can produce STERILE offsprings...

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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Nimwey » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:29 am

The domestic cat, Asian leopard cat and Serval are in different genuses, and can produce fertile offspring.
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Tiantai » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:36 am

Nimwey wrote:The domestic cat, Asian leopard cat and Serval are in different genuses, and can produce fertile offspring.
So can the Canada Geese and the Greylag Geese, both are different genus but are capable of producing fertile offsprings. In fact, there are numerous cases of hybrid geese popping up all over the place in several parts of Canada and the US.

There are many hybrid animals who despite being the result of an interbreeding with parents of different genus are perfectly capable of reproducing with no problem. It really depends on just how close their genetic materials are. Waterfowls being the most common of them all.
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by AZDehlin » Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:34 am

TerriHolt wrote:I've never understood why humans have to interfere with the wonders of nature... If a fox were to be domesticated it would happen over time not while they were stuck in cages so they could barely move... How scared the aggressive foxes must have been is unthinkable...
Luccistar wrote:and are currently still working on domesticating OTTERS.
Why? What is the reason for this? So humans can get what they want yet again? Why not domesticate all wild... I'll take a tiger and a lion please :roll:

I'm sorry, i guess i just don't see why or how this can be a good thing...
I don't get it either Terri, I do not agree with people owning wild animals it's cruel, selfish and disrispectful to the animal.

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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Nimwey » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:16 am

Well, when they're domesticated, they're not wild anymore are they? :) No different from owning cats, ferrets or rabbits.
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by TerriHolt » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:27 am

Nimwey wrote:Well, when they're domesticated, they're not wild anymore are they? :) No different from owning cats, ferrets or rabbits.
The domestication process is cruel and stressful... Other domestic animals happened naturally, over the course of 100's of years... It wasn't forced upon them in the fastest way possible...

And technically, domestic cats are only domestic in the presence of humans. If a kitten and it's mother has no human contact it will be completely feral. My mum found a feral cat and kitten. She caught the kitten but not the mum (i suspect she would have killed us anyway, she was huge! lol) and we called him Gizmo due to the gremlin type nature of him if you approached... Unfortunately we caught him too late and he died of a disease just as he started coming round to the idea of a family after months of effort, patience, love and endless scratches.
Not to mention the fact that it's cats who own and use humans. If you have an outdoor cat and it is not happy at home, it will leave home and find a new one.
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Tiantai » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:07 pm

AZDehlin wrote:
I don't get it either Terri, I do not agree with people owning wild animals it's cruel, selfish and disrespectful to the animal.
Although I don't agree with the idea of domesticating anymore animals in our modern day, I do find it kind of hypocritical to criticize those people still trying to domesticate certain species especially when you already live with one whose ancestors from many years ago probably went through a similar experience.

But it should also be important to note that there are also those naturally wild animals whom due to growing up in captivity (captive Coywolves, ligers, elephants, and many other zoo animals) cannot be released as their reduced fear of humans make them an easy target for getting shot down than those that grew up in the wild and have a natural fear of humans.
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by AZDehlin » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:09 am

Tiantai wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:
I don't get it either Terri, I do not agree with people owning wild animals it's cruel, selfish and disrespectful to the animal.
Although I don't agree with the idea of domesticating anymore animals in our modern day, I do find it kind of hypocritical to criticize those people still trying to domesticate certain species especially when you already live with one whose ancestors from many years ago probably went through a similar experience.

But it should also be important to note that there are also those naturally wild animals whom due to growing up in captivity (captive Coywolves, ligers, elephants, and many other zoo animals) cannot be released as their reduced fear of humans make them an easy target for getting shot down than those that grew up in the wild and have a natural fear of humans.
I live with a dog, dogs were domesticated over thousands of years and I am sure it wasn't by force ... I didnt go take a wolf pup, put a collar on it and call it a dog. And even with Zephyr if I knew there was more recent wolf contect I would of never given the tamaskan a second glance... But I am not going to put my dog to sleep because he has one wolf 10+ generations back because it feels morally wrong to me. Its a complicated moral battle that I have to deal with now.

I do not support the ideas of zoos... the rescue I volunteered at, all the animals that came to be there were because of humans illegally optaining them not knowing how to take care of them when they grew out of that cute stageand then neglected them and made them suffer. Be real... 99.9% of humans don't want to release these zoo animals back even if they could... people make their living off spectators coming to watch the caged animals.

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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by TerriHolt » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:33 pm

AZDehlin wrote: Be real... 99.9% of humans don't want to release these zoo animals back even if they could... people make their living off spectators coming to watch the caged animals.
Sad but true...
On yahoo, i forget where it was, but there was a zoo full of animals facing starvation because they run out of money and only have they food they got... There was no mention that the zoo wanted to relocate them to a coping zoo but instead played on the fact they would starve and die if they didn't get money to feed them.

Then on comments, people was on about releasing them but the animals wouldn't survive anyway... Even with their fear of humans still intact, they got their food handed to them so haven't learnt the ability to hunt/forage their own food from a young age.
Tiantai wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:
I don't get it either Terri, I do not agree with people owning wild animals it's cruel, selfish and disrespectful to the animal.
Although I don't agree with the idea of domesticating anymore animals in our modern day, I do find it kind of hypocritical to criticize those people still trying to domesticate certain species especially when you already live with one whose ancestors from many years ago probably went through a similar experience.

But it should also be important to note that there are also those naturally wild animals whom due to growing up in captivity (captive Coywolves, ligers, elephants, and many other zoo animals) cannot be released as their reduced fear of humans make them an easy target for getting shot down than those that grew up in the wild and have a natural fear of humans.

No, not really... Dogs were domesticated over thousand's of years like katelyn said. It was more of a mutual process that eventually worked the way it did. wolves/dogs protected man, man fed wolves/dogs... It worked well for all involved. Eventually they got more jobs to do for food..
If i fed a fox 3 times a day and i had thousand's of years so i could repeat the process with it's many offspring over those years, it would eventually domesticate like dogs. The fact been that the experiment is a forced domestication process designed to skip a few thousand years missing the natural process.

Leads me to voice my next thought...

I've wondered with that experiment, because it hasn't happened naturally and in turn is a rush job, would the results be different if it happened the exact same way it happened with dogs? It is happening in a very different way to how it happened with wolves/dogs so it can't be very accurate to what they are trying to achieve.

Also, i wouldn't have got Sam if i hadn't have believed lynn. I didn't get a saarloos or a czechoslovakian because of the not so distant wolf history, if i'd have known what i know about Tams, i would have carried on walking. Since the truth came out as a definite fact, i had a huge moral imbalance with my self for ages... I wanted to test him and hope it came back dog but i was worried about how i would feel if it didn't. But the truth is, i love my dog, i can't change what happened and it doesn't change him... I still wish i'd have had a choice and had full information at hand when making a decision tho...
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Tiantai » Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:11 pm

(Off topic)
A lot of people feel the same way. For me, since the Saarloos and the Czechoslovakian Vlcak are recognized breeds of domestic dogs I see them as just regular dogs so the line with Oskari in it doesn't bother me. It's the lines with Boogie in it that I am worried about as there are dogs from that line that are living in places where they can be taken away IF the laws find out about them having known wolfdogs in them.
(end off topic)

Because the foxes were domesticated in this fashion skipping many years it took for the dog, I sometimes wonder that if they were to revert to the wild and become feral, would they still be able to bond with humans like some feral dogs have after many generations OR would they end up back-crossing with the wild red foxes and become the vulpine version of a wolfdog...

Although some of the foxes look different from their wild counter-parts, they still look like foxes whereas for dogs there are numerous breeds that no longer look like the wolves except those arctic primitive ones. Even some dogs that have reverted to the wild for thousands of years such as the Dingoes and no longer capable of being domesticated don't look like true Grey wolves anymore (although they are now legally considered a subspecies of the Grey wolf separated from the domestic dogs).
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Luccistar » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:34 pm

TerriHolt wrote:
Nimwey wrote:Well, when they're domesticated, they're not wild anymore are they? :) No different from owning cats, ferrets or rabbits.
The domestication process is cruel and stressful... Other domestic animals happened naturally, over the course of 100's of years... It wasn't forced upon them in the fastest way possible...
Actually, what about ferrets, chinchillas, guinea pigs, etc.? Those weren't domesticated naturally, they have been domesticated by force too, if you think about it.
Tiantai wrote:
Although I don't agree with the idea of domesticating anymore animals in our modern day, I do find it kind of hypocritical to criticize those people still trying to domesticate certain species especially when you already live with one whose ancestors from many years ago probably went through a similar experience.

But it should also be important to note that there are also those naturally wild animals whom due to growing up in captivity (captive Coywolves, ligers, elephants, and many other zoo animals) cannot be released as their reduced fear of humans make them an easy target for getting shot down than those that grew up in the wild and have a natural fear of humans.
I agree with what you said, and also, the domestic foxes are actually SO domestic that if you release them in the wild they will either be shot before doing anything but will most likely die of hunger, cold or killed by predators. They have no more survival instincts like the wild ones. They are REALLY domesticated and could not survive out there

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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Tiantai » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:55 am

I'm a bit skeptic about the "no survival instinct" part. All animals including us have a survival instinct. Domestication does not wipe it out, it merely reduces some of their tendency to go after certain animals. Hunger is what motivates a feral dog (regardless of breed) to go after a mouse, rabbit, or groundhog and devour it. Although some feral animals have a "reduced" killer instinct as I've seen some cats in my neighbourhood get along well with the squirrels, they will eat anything they find edible if very hungry. There is no doubt in my mind that they would have a much tougher time surviving than a wild-born animal and are more likely to die but survival instinct is something that no living animal can not have.
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Nimwey » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:23 am

As far as I know, no one really *knows* how long the domestication process in our other animals really took. It may just have taken a few decades to domesticate the wolf to the point that it got some doggy behaviors, floppy ears and strange coats, who knows? (The oldest skull that is unmistakably dog is 33 000 years old, but it doesn't say anything about how the process from wild wolves to dogs as tame as the domesticated foxes really took.)

And the only animals that have "chosen" to be with us are dogs and cats (they are also the only animals that we normally don't put in cages or enclosures). All other domesticated or semi-domesticated animals - horses, donkeys, sheep, goats, cattle, pigs, chickens, pigeons, budgies, hamsters, rats, mice, guinea pigs, chinchillas, ferrets, etc. - have all been put in cages or enclosures and "forced" to become tame.
Although some of the foxes look different from their wild counter-parts, they still look like foxes whereas for dogs there are numerous breeds that no longer look like the wolves except those arctic primitive ones.
And as for the looks part - of course foxes are not really as domesticated as labradors or poodles yet, it has after all only been about 50 generations.
But I don't really think looks alone can tell how domesticated an animal is. Most cats look very much like the African wild cat they stem from (and NO cat looks as different from the wild cat as for example a pekingese does from a wolf), but they lack the wild temperament.

And horses - very much domesticated, for thousands of years, but just like cats, they only differ superficially from wild horses like the Przewalski.

So I don't think we'll need any "bullfoxes" or "pooxes" or "foxiffs" to say they are really domesticated. ;) But perhaps I misunderstood you.
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Tiantai » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:15 pm

Personally I think the Grey wolves used for the domestication process to some of the early dogs were the Middle Eastern to Far-Eastern subspecies. If you compare an Asian wolf (Tibetan wolf, Indian wolf, Chinese wolf) with the Eurasian wolf or various North American wolves, the former first is more docile and less wolfish temperament-wise. Although I do believe that Eurasian wolves do exist in many of the oldest domestic dogs and I'm NOT talking about the more recent breeds like the Saarloos and Czechoslovakian but rather the Siberian Huskies and Laikas, in my personal opinion those were probably used as backcrosses way later. The Far-Eastern wolves are also similar to dogs in which they're known to understand human body language such as when we're "pointing" and look in that direction and some are known to bark more than howl. There's also a lot of those in China who live comfortably in rural houses. There is many theories that some wolves might have domesticated themselves BEFORE humans converted them into dogs after generations. Such wolves would follow mankind on their hunts and scavenge on our leftovers from a far distant. Eventually as they became more dependent on our leftovers they learnt to trust us to a level and some eventually adapted to living more comfortably around humans somewhat (though not exactly) like coyotes in North America and Golden Jackals in the Middle East. The Far-Eastern Grey wolf subspecies seem to fit those descriptions. Although they're NOT dogs and cannot be treated like them, they are more closer to the dogs second only to the Australian dingoes.

Here's a video of an adolescent Tibetan wolf:

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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by cindy23323 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:33 pm

All his talk of foxes, i thought I'd share these pics.

Max raised Roxie
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by darazan » Thu May 16, 2013 7:53 am

Personally, I don't see the domestication process used in the experiment to be any different than how any dog breeder will breed for temperament. It is exactly the same thing. As far as I've heard, the Russian experiment was not expecting changes in coats and ears and tails, because they were simply breeding for temperament and seeing if, over time those foxes who had a better temperament had offspring with even better temperaments and how long it took until you had tame/domestic foxes based on breeding those with positive temperaments. It really is no different than anyone trying to breed for temperament or even trying to make a new breed. You find the traits that you want and breed for those traits. Just because it's on a larger scale, done by a science lab, and started at at time when frankly animal rights were non-existent does not make it fundamentally different than what Tamaskan breeders are trying to do to calm down or soften the husky or wolfdog temperament in some Tamaskan lines.
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by Tatzel » Thu May 16, 2013 5:05 pm

darazan wrote:Personally, I don't see the domestication process used in the experiment to be any different than how any dog breeder will breed for temperament. It is exactly the same thing. As far as I've heard, the Russian experiment was not expecting changes in coats and ears and tails, because they were simply breeding for temperament and seeing if, over time those foxes who had a better temperament had offspring with even better temperaments and how long it took until you had tame/domestic foxes based on breeding those with positive temperaments. It really is no different than anyone trying to breed for temperament or even trying to make a new breed. You find the traits that you want and breed for those traits. Just because it's on a larger scale, done by a science lab, and started at at time when frankly animal rights were non-existent does not make it fundamentally different than what Tamaskan breeders are trying to do to calm down or soften the husky or wolfdog temperament in some Tamaskan lines.
It makes sense, though!
Form follows function, if you breed out the fucntion, the form will go loose! :)
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Re: Russian "Tame Foxes"

Post by darazan » Thu May 16, 2013 9:27 pm

Certainly, although dog breeders in general don't just breed for temperament, since they are trying to meet a breed standard. In the experiment, they were just breeding for temperament and those changes cropped up. Dog breeding itself has gotten to a place, I think, where you don't have to worry quite as much about the looks going because of temperament as long as you're keeping an eye out for these things. Modern Dobermans, for example, aren't as fierce as they were initially bred to be because as time went on people wanted to breed that trait out of them and wanted a friendlier Doberman, so they used different outcrosses to breed in better temperaments while still maintaining the look of the Doberman.

Still, I hope there's a day when domestic foxes are treated the same way as domestic dogs and cats and are freely allowed as pets. I think that for that to happen, the mindset on them would need to change because it's been a fur animal for such a long time and it's not like cows since they're used for many other things than leather.
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