With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Karen » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:38 am

Tatzel wrote:Just quickly stepping in to say that I find it ridicolous to be bothered/take offense by capitalized letters.
I know people who aren't really good at the computer and who type LIKE THIS ALL THE TIME - others just captilaize to emphasize, to compare it to shouting or feel offended by it is just silly in my opinion. Sure, it's bothersome to read, but I don't see what's the deal with it being so troubling to some members.
.
It is just plain writing etiquette for email/internet.
Look it up ;)

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Katlin » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:16 am

Karen wrote:
Tatzel wrote:Just quickly stepping in to say that I find it ridicolous to be bothered/take offense by capitalized letters.
I know people who aren't really good at the computer and who type LIKE THIS ALL THE TIME - others just captilaize to emphasize, to compare it to shouting or feel offended by it is just silly in my opinion. Sure, it's bothersome to read, but I don't see what's the deal with it being so troubling to some members.
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It is just plain writing etiquette for email/internet.
Look it up ;)
I agree Tatzel :)

Karen, I'd find that rude :/
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:21 am

You said who...
Anyways, this is why...
A forum moderator oversees the communication activity of an Internet forum. He monitors the interchange of contributors and makes decisions regarding content and the direction of threads. Moving discussions from one section to another to keep topics organized is also a common job for a forum moderator.
If the tone of a forum becomes hostile or starts to move in the direction of personal attacks, the forum moderator usually has the discretion to lock the discussion to prevent heated, interchanges. He may also be able to hide discussions he deems unworthy of further discussion. Conversely, topics he feels deserve further examination can be posted indefinitely by the moderator even if they garner no comments.
Supplementary duties of a forum moderator may include relocating discussions to more appropriate sections, closing or locking threads based on dwindling interest or lack of recent activity, editing posts for clarity or content, and deleting threads. Thread deletion can either be temporary or permanent, depending on the wishes of the forum moderator.
Taken from this link http://m.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-forum-moderator.htm
This is why it is up to the moderators and admin, it is what they do, it is their duties.
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:30 am

martinbernstein wrote:Yea you answered who makes the decision. My question is, why? In my opinion it is not for the admin/mod team to decide that an entire thread be removed.
There is a governing bodies in all aspects of our lives, this question too me is like asking why we have government at all. The forum doesn't run it self and it is not free, Debby puts a lot of time and money and the more bandwidth we use the pricier it gets. Also the longer this forum is here the more that will be here is it really necessary to keep topics on here that are no longer pertinent and could will only confuse new comers? I feel since this is the TDR forum if topics are no longer pertinent or will confuse the public Forum Admin have a right to vote among themselves to remove it or not.

Also with out the Admin/Mod team you would have hundreds of spam posts/topics... Before I was and admin I ran into a few topics that where links to church websites... Without admins you would run into them more than on a rare occasion. Also we have had bots on here that have copied peoples posts and reposted them as their own words. This forum is better for having people to upkeep it.

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by martinbernstein » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:13 am

I am not advocating a mod/admin-free forum. Of course we need them. But we don't need them to remove threads and posts without consulting or informing the OPs or posters. That is just wrong.

Since you mention it- this is a TDR forum, but does that mean that the TDR should reserve the right to censor certain threads that will 'confuse' people? I was censored when the Blus were around. Can you imagine why? Well, it had something to do with me pressing the issue of wolf content. If I wasn't ridiculed by forum members, my posts were somehow altered or edited by admin/mods.

Surely you can understand that in light of all that went on previously, I am not terribly eager for the admin/mods to reserve the right to remove posts and threads?

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:15 am

martinbernstein wrote: Since you mention it- this is a TDR forum, but does that mean that the TDR should reserve the right to censor certain threads that will 'confuse' people?
I think the answer is not just black or white... I feel everyone should have a right on here to ask anything that they have genuine concern about and the admin/and mods should not censor what is allowed long as it is pertinent to the Tamaskan Dog. But I think as time goes forward old post should be dissolved... like why keep up the questions on wolf content when the post of wolf content confirmation is out now... how about a year from now? It's history and the truth is out there and there is a new thread talking about it. As a new member it could be confusing to decipher all of this past and present issues. If a topic is not relevant to the present, is not being talked about and no one is visiting it, what is it's purpose? What are the risks of keeping it up? what are the perks?


martinbernstein wrote: I was censored when the Blus were around. Can you imagine why? Well, it had something to do with me pressing the issue of wolf content. If I wasn't ridiculed by forum members, my posts were somehow altered or edited by admin/mods.
Lots of us were censored by the blues and even got un polite PM's from them. As for wolf content we were all convinced other wise by our breeders and there was no dna or test to prove other wise at the time so although it was a good topic to raise I think you had to expect that people were not going to believe you... and I am sure many of us are very sorry now. None of us are the blues or are trying to be, I haven't heard or seen any post being out rightly deleted cause they were heated or were controversial. I haven't seen individual post being edited or deleted and I haven't seen any out right harassment. Topics have been started concerning some of the temperament issues and the difficulties people having with the breed. We are now all allowed to discuss out cross without getting ridiculed that we know nothing. Health issues have been brought up that were once denied. I think we have come a long way in little time and we should comment on our positive changes instead of letting the past committee dictate how you feel about the present one.


martinbernstein wrote:Surely you can understand that in light of all that went on previously, I am not terribly eager for the admin/mods to reserve the right to remove posts and threads?
I think we have to be given a chance, we are not the blues and I don't think it is fair to compare what being done now with what was going on with blue dictating this forum. Just because a few old topics that are no longer relevant or commented on were archived as new post were made. And they were put back when requested.

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Karen » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:34 am

Katlin wrote:[


I agree Tatzel :)

Karen, I'd find that rude :/
I am sorry....But wat is rude? :shock: You lost me...

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Finn1 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:05 am

Such hypocrisy, Karen makes a small comment and she is being accused of being rude! Yet this whole thing started because some of us felt that the committee had overstepped the mark in the way certain members approached an individual. We make a complaint and get nothing but defence and arguments and are ultimately made to look like the bad guys. What do you want Katlin? Karen to say sorry? Do you not see the irony? I give up, someone please answer Martin's questions properly, you are going round in circles. Where is Debby by the way? And why do the Blu's keep getting a mention? debby banned Marc not that long ago, he was on here under a different name during the fallout after the Blu's had gone. I know that and I am not even a mod and before you infer anything, Jim did not tell me that, it was obvious, Marc was here one minute and gone the next. Anyway as an adult I would like to apologise to anyone that I have upset during this completely stupid argument. It has gone nowhere, nothing has changed and people are still unable to be themselves. Dottie made complete sense in her post, just apologise and move on.

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by MelB » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:40 am

Lucas, it doesn't matter what YOU think or how these dogs look to YOU... the DNA test CONFIRMED that offspring of Summer x Bobbi ARE "wolf hybrids" according to the UC Davis lab
I find absolutely nothing wrong with the capitalisation in this sentence. Capitalisation is used for emphasis, in this case emphasising that scientific evidence has been obtained that outweighs a persons opposite personal belief.

Not all capitalisation is "angry shouting". Perhaps making a point should be in bold? This is what I tend to do. In which case these rules should be included in the forum rules, bold for making a point and that capitals are seen as shouting so to refrain from it. It is the trouble with the written word, you cannot see the actual sentiment behind it.

On another note, I am totally against moving any posts. I've had enough of that. If a thread is deemed too heated it should be locked so no one can perpetuate it, with a note from the locking admin stating why it is being locked but left for reference. Only offensive posts should be removed. If a thread contains an individual offensive post then just that post should be deleted (again with a note from the mod saying "offensive post deleted". This is what happens on the other forums I frequent.

I didn't post for a long time when the Blus were around, because initially every time I mentioned Cindy's hips and needed support there was immediately a discussion of "don't forget it can be environmental". Any time anyone P***ed them off the whole thread "accidentally" got deleted or just moved out of sight to be discussed by admin never to be seen again. Knowing if I mentioned it too many times it would be hidden I didn't bother posting about my dog. I don't want to be made to feel like that again.

We need complete transparency, not just within the breeding records and among breeders but on the forum too. If posts "disappear" for any reason it looks like there's something to hide even when there isn't. No organisation is perfect but if it can stand up to open criticism or an uncomfortable subject without trying to hide it then it's getting there.

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:19 am

Finn1 wrote:this whole thing started because some of us felt that the committee had overstepped the mark in the way certain members approached an individual. We make a complaint and get nothing but defence and arguments and are ultimately made to look like the bad guys.
The whole committee is made up of individuals and not all of them participated in that post. Apologies have been made to the individual and no offense was taken by him. What else do you want?


Finn1 wrote: someone please answer Martin's questions properly, you are going round in circles.


Are my answers to his questions not what your looking for?


Finn1 wrote: Where is Debby by the way?
It's her birthday I am sure she is spending it with her fiance and pets.

Finn1 wrote: And why do the Blu's keep getting a mention?
You keep mentioning nothing has changed... but what hasn't in the last two months? If you are not referring to the blues leaving and the reconstruction of the TDR then what are your referring that statement too?
Finn1 wrote: debby banned Marc not that long ago, he was on here under a different name during the fallout after the Blu's had gone.
He got banned for "threatening and harassing forum members and their dogs" through PM's and emails... And I think he has had more than just two accounts.
Finn1 wrote: It has gone nowhere, nothing has changed and people are still unable to be themselves.
What hasn't changed?

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:34 am

Finn1 wrote: someone please answer Martin's questions properly, you are going round in circles.

I have been doing my best to answer his questions, I'm sorry if they are not the answers you are wanting.
Finn1 wrote: Where is Debby by the way?
Debby is not the only admin as some still seem to think or treat it. She has a life she has the right to not be present as she cannot run this forum 24/7.
Finn1 wrote: And why do the Blu's keep getting a mention?
Have they now become the '(S)he-who-must-not-be-named'? I mentioned them because they were the ones who pushed the last banning, they were the ones who were most guilty of deleting posts. We have been compared to them and told nothing has changed, I don't see that as true.
Finn1 wrote: It has gone nowhere, nothing has changed and people are still unable to be themselves.
When someone is being accused of talking to another member in a humiliating way when it is not so, then yes, I agree with only the last part of this statement. Other than that, what has not changed?
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by nivenj » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:35 am

This will be my last post

Lucas, I am truly sorry that this has caused you discomfort. It was never the intention to do so and for that I am deeply sorry. As I have been at great pains to explain, this has never been about you as an individual, but an issue with the abuse of privilege.

Those who know me will know I was a prolific poster prior to being asked to take on a moderator role. You will also notice that once I did, my posts where infrequent. This was not due to the fact I had nothing to say on matters, but was because as a Moderator, I have to be impartial to discussions and look at the posts from a viewpoint of whether they are breaking any of the forum rules. Not whether I agree with them or not.

There will always be multiple views on any topic. Some will find things offensive, others will not. If a post can be viewed as offensive by some, then it is offensive, plain and simple. It does not matter that some find it not. It is the role of the Admin and Moderator to ensure that such posts are "Moderated".

There are quite a few topics on this forum that are offensive, but where allowed to continue because those "in charge" (I will answer your question in a sec martin) deemed them "Interesting topics". This is the problem when you don't have an impartial Moderator and Admin team. It has and will always be a case of "my ball, my rules" with the organisation as it stands. If an Admin or Moderator wishes to be free to express their "Opinion" then they should step down from the position and be a forum member. An Admin or Moderator needs to beyond reproach. Writing posts, or reply's which can be interpreted by others as an infringement of the rules that they are meant to be upholding is and never can be acceptable, no matter what excuse is given.

Martin, you ask a very pertinent question. There is a problem here. If you look at the Forum tagline it reads "This forum is officially recognized by and affiliated with the Tamaskan Dog Register (TDR)". However, if you look at the list of Admins:Sylvaen, Rahne, Nino, Misaya, Lynwae, muensterland, Tarheel, amittammu, and compare this with the TDR Committee representatives:-
John Bannow (Tarheel) = Representative for the United States - National Tamaskan Club of America
Fiona Laidlaw (Misaya) = Representative for the United Kingdom - British Tamaskan Club
Karsten Buescher (muensterland) = Representative for Germany - Tamaskan Germany
Rahne Meeder (Rahne) = Representative for the Netherlands - Nederlandse Tamaskan Club
Debby Stainforth (Sylvaen) = Representative for Croatia - Hrvatski Tamaskan Savez
Line Pilegaard (Nino) = Representative for Denmark - Scandinavian Tamaskan Club
Amit Tamrakar (amittammu) = Representative for Canada - National Tamaskan Club of Canada
Emilie Reydon (Lynwae) = Representative for France - Club Français du Tamaskan

It is obvious that this forum isn't just associated with the TDR, it is run by the TDR.

Now with no disrespect to anyone on this list, these people have the ability to do anything on this forum, however there is and are no checks and balances to ensure that they are able and or are fit to do so. They are Administrators because Debby decided they would be. Debby being the "superuser" as she pays for the upkeep of the forum. I am not sure how the moderators where chosen.

This is where it falls down. The people in control of the TDR are also in control of the forum, and therefore, although there are a couple of Admins that take a back seat and do not get involved in the public forum discussions, the forum is used by some as a means to control the community. This is why things get censored, not because they are infringing on the rules, but because they are contrary to what certain members who sit on the TDR wish people to know and or talk about. They are not impartial and this is why you run into issues.

There is discussion here on archived posts, and the suggestion that posts are archived when they are old or no longer relevant. I can in all honestly say, I have never seen a single topic in the Archive thread that was put there because it was old or no longer relevant. The archived area is full of topics that were removed because they were deemed not in the public interest or against what those who wish to control the community did not want discussed. My resignation was a perfect example. First reaction was to limit the damage and control the situation by removing it from public view.

Many have commented that my posting of non public messages was wrong, some think it was disgusting and childish desperation. I can understand this view. I am personally not against there being a non public section for Admins and Moderators. However what I am against is the way some Admins and moderators use this section to talk behind peoples backs, and many posts in that section are not acceptable. Indeed there are complete topics who's title are forum members names. The function of the non public area should be purely for discussion of moderation, and no one should post something that they would be embarrassed about if it was publicly known, because it should not be about opinion, it should be a discussion on wether a post/topic infringes the rules and moderation is required and sticking to the facts. Its run as, and you will pardon the pun, "a boys club".

There is also a section which even moderators are not allowed access to. There is a section that only Breeders are allowed to see. The pedigree database, despite the illusion that it has been opened up for public use, never was. A new database has been created which was drip fed the data which those in control where happy to publish as it was "clean". Its just layer upon layer of secrets. Considering the promise of transparency was flouted, I have yet to see anything approaching such an noble statement.

In my honest opinion, the TDR needs to completely detach itself from the running of this forum. Not only does it diminish the good work the TDR (as a whole) is trying to accomplish, Any transgression on this forum by a member of the Admin team is seen as a Transgression of the TDR as a whole, which is not right and the whole TDR name should not be tarnished because a couple of Admins and mods cannot be impartial.

On a final note. I fully support the TDR as an organisation and believe it has a critical role to play as an organisation. I do think it could be organised slightly better, but that will come in time and will need to adapt if it is to succeed. I will continue to promote and be part of the British Tamaskan Club, where we will be promoting the Tamaskan Breed here in the UK.

Sorry for the long post, but it is my last and I hope it will give some food for thought. I will not be reading any replys to this so I apologise if anyone asks or expects a response from a reply, but I wont be aware of it.

Goodbye and Good Luck.
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Booma » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:55 pm

He got banned for "threatening and harassing forum members and their dogs" through PM's and emails...
My thread about marc sending threatening pms and emails seem to have disappeared (and not for the first time). people deserve to know that there are petty, vindictive people out there who will do anything they can (no matter who they have to step on to do it), to try to destroy someone they dont like. i would like my thread restored.
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by wicca1 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:07 pm

been away for a few days and not sure what has been going on, sorry Nivenji has decided to leave though?

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:39 pm

Kylievr wrote:
He got banned for "threatening and harassing forum members and their dogs" through PM's and emails...
My thread about marc sending threatening pms and emails seem to have disappeared (and not for the first time). people deserve to know that there are petty, vindictive people out there who will do anything they can (no matter who they have to step on to do it), to try to destroy someone they dont like. i would like my thread restored.
I'm sorry, I am unable to find this thread as well :(
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:44 pm

nivenj wrote:There will always be multiple views on any topic. Some will find things offensive, others will not. If a post can be viewed as offensive by some, then it is offensive, plain and simple. It does not matter that some find it not. It is the role of the Admin and Moderator to ensure that such posts are "Moderated".
I disagree with this, it is silly to say something is offensive just because a few found it that way, especially if it is not towards them. An example could be someone calling a puppy miller an aweful person, but then someone finds the statement offensive because somebody is being called an aweful person. Or maybe a better example is someone is using apples to compare to oranges, but then someone gets offended because they are allergic to apples.
Some people will always find something to be offensive, and just because they think it is, does not mean it always is.
nivenj wrote:There are quite a few topics on this forum that are offensive, but where allowed to continue because those "in charge" deemed them "Interesting topics". This is the problem when you don't have an impartial Moderator and Admin team. It has and will always be a case of "my ball, my rules" with the organisation as it stands. If an Admin or Moderator wishes to be free to express their "Opinion" then they should step down from the position and be a forum member. An Admin or Moderator needs to beyond reproach. Writing posts, or reply's which can be interpreted by others as an infringement of the rules that they are meant to be upholding is and never can be acceptable, no matter what excuse is given.
What rules state this that Admin or Moderators are not allowed to express their opinions? I was unaware of this rule of this forum.
Moderators are sometimes encouraged to join in discussions, especially if they have expert experience or advice to contribute.
http://m.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-forum-moderator.htm
nivenj wrote:Now with no disrespect to anyone on this list, these people have the ability to do anything on this forum, however there is and are no checks and balances to ensure that they are able and or are fit to do so. They are Administrators because Debby decided they would be. Debby being the "superuser" as she pays for the upkeep of the forum. I am not sure how the moderators where chosen.
Most of this comes down to trust and knowing each other. Having so many admins and mods we are supposed to balance and check each other. Moderators were chosen for their activity on the forum and was agreed upon with the rest of the at the time admins and mods.
nivenj wrote:This is where it falls down. The people in control of the TDR are also in control of the forum, and therefore, although there are a couple of Admins that take a back seat and do not get involved in the public forum discussions, the forum is used by some as a means to control the community. This is why things get censored, not because they are infringing on the rules, but because they are contrary to what certain members who sit on the TDR wish people to know and or talk about. They are not impartial and this is why you run into issues.
Some do not get involved because they have their own lives to run outside of the forum, and, some because they do not want to get involved in drama like this.
nivenj wrote:There is discussion here on archived posts, and the suggestion that posts are archived when they are old or no longer relevant. I can in all honestly say, I have never seen a single topic in the Archive thread that was put there because it was old or no longer relevant. The archived area is full of topics that were removed because they were deemed not in the public interest or against what those who wish to control the community did not want discussed. My resignation was a perfect example. First reaction was to limit the damage and control the situation by removing it from public view.
The first part I have in bold here, is this not an opinion? It is up to the admin and mods to decide what is old and no longer relevant because that is part of our job to run the forum.
The second part I have in bold here, this was posted up without discussing with the rest of the admin and mods first.
nivenj wrote:Many have commented that my posting of non public messages was wrong, some think it was disgusting and childish desperation. I can understand this view. I am personally not against there being a non public section for Admins and Moderators. However what I am against is the way some Admins and moderators use this section to talk behind peoples backs, and many posts in that section are not acceptable. Indeed there are complete topics who's title are forum members names. The function of the non public area should be purely for discussion of moderation, and no one should post something that they would be embarrassed about if it was publicly known, because it should not be about opinion, it should be a discussion on wether a post/topic infringes the rules and moderation is required and sticking to the facts. Its run as, and you will pardon the pun, "a boys club".
This is because this is where we have discussions on how we should deal with certain members. Should they be banned, do they need a warning, how many complaints are we getting about them, how do we take care of this situation this person is causing, ect.
nivenj wrote:There is also a section which even moderators are not allowed access to. There is a section that only Breeders are allowed to see. The pedigree database, despite the illusion that it has been opened up for public use, never was. A new database has been created which was drip fed the data which those in control where happy to publish as it was "clean". Its just layer upon layer of secrets. Considering the promise of transparency was flouted, I have yet to see anything approaching such an noble statement.
When I first became a moderator, before I ever decided to become a breeder, I asked if it was okay for me to see the Breeder section. They had no problem with me doing so.
The old pedigree database had lots of incorrect information, it was easier to start anew with the new database and adding in correct information as they find it.


I am considering Locking this topic as it has gone circles and more drama (something that we are not supposed to tolerate). But if that is done, then instead of 'censoring', would it be considered as 'silencing' (maybe that is the wrong word)? I won't do so until speaking with the rest of the admin and mods first.
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by martinbernstein » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:01 pm

HiTenshi,

Before you go ahead and lock the thread, how about letting the SuperUser Debby respond first. Many of the questions posed here are best answered by her.

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:29 pm

I don't think that is fair to call her the "Superuser" just because she funds the forum. I said that I will speak with the other mods and admins first before locking this topic, just waiting for them to come online again. Until then anyone is still able to post.
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by martinbernstein » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:34 pm

Funds the forum? I had no clue she paid money to keep this forum going until today. That's not why I'm referring to her as SuperUser.

Btw, why lock the thread? If it is in order to 'shield' users from further 'drama', then surely those users can refrain from reading and participating in this thread? No one is forcing it upon them. But by locking this thread you are taking away our privilege to continue participating in a debate if we so choose. I thought that was what forums were for?

Is anyone harassing anyone else? No. Is anyone creating a hostile environment? No. Are people asking valid questions? Yes. Are those questions being answered? Some, by some, yes. Should those questions continue to be addressed and discussed here? I think so.

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Finn1 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:53 pm

I agree with Martin, it would be useful to learn from what has gone on rather than lock it down. These spikes happen and it seems to me that it doesn't really change things, they are not learnt from. Kyliver for example has a really valid point about the problems that she has had via Marc. My point on referring to his ban was to demonstrate that it was Debby that did it, not the Blu's and that it is Debby who has the ultimate say over things. Kyliver needs the thread to remain as to why Marc was banned, quite rightly so in my opinion. I am not sure any of you realise the price all of this fighting has cost some individuals. I asked after Debby as I realise it is her birthday etc but it did feel that she has left it to you to sort out. It could have been handled a bit differently and you would not of lost Jim, a really valued member and I, much less valued I know but useful sometimes. Jim makes some good points and rather than deconstruct his post why don't you give it a bit more thought and debate?. What is the TDR, is it a forum or is it something else? I am not clear. Jim is a really bright and clever man, you guys just need to show a bit more respect to fellow members. I am so sad that it is so easy for the forum to lose its members. Easy come, easy go I suppose.

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by skyedream » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:02 pm

I don't think it's normal for forums to lock and archive threads like this. Granted I'm only a member of one other forum but it has 25,000 members and nowhere near the drama this forum has. People post all sorts of (unoffensive) rubbish on there that doesn't get deleted but that's the kind of forum it is. People here tend to be a bit more restrained and yet still threads are being locked unnecessarily.

And Jim's not alone in thinking the post in the 'possible tam' thread was over the top. I found it extremely offensive. But I'm glad to hear that Debby has apologised in private. I wish that we didn't have to lose a valued member because of it though.
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Rahne » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:21 pm

nivenj wrote:The pedigree database, despite the illusion that it has been opened up for public use, never was. A new database has been created which was drip fed the data which those in control where happy to publish as it was "clean". Its just layer upon layer of secrets. Considering the promise of transparency was flouted, I have yet to see anything approaching such an noble statement.
What do you mean with this?? Yes I created a 'new' database, because I wanted to merge it with the TDR website and the Showing Club etc. so it is easier for me and saves me a lot of time keeping up with everything! The info from the 'old' database has been transferred over to the 'new' one who is fully public. I have published ALL info that I received from owners and breeders so I really have no idea what you are talking about here... :roll:

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by weylyn » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:52 pm

Rahne wrote:
nivenj wrote:The pedigree database, despite the illusion that it has been opened up for public use, never was. A new database has been created which was drip fed the data which those in control where happy to publish as it was "clean". Its just layer upon layer of secrets. Considering the promise of transparency was flouted, I have yet to see anything approaching such an noble statement.
What do you mean with this?? Yes I created a 'new' database, because I wanted to merge it with the TDR website and the Showing Club etc. so it is easier for me and saves me a lot of time keeping up with everything! The info from the 'old' database has been transferred over to the 'new' one who is fully public. I have published ALL info that I received from owners and breeders so I really have no idea what you are talking about here... :roll:
You also have to keep in mind Jim that the one creating the database can only be as honest as the owners and breeders are ;)
If Rahne doesn't get all the information there is about the dogs than she can never get that info in the database. And believe me that much breeders do not tell everything and I don't just mean this in the Tamaskan breed.
I discuffered that if you want to have all the info about your dogs that you do not always make friends in that ;)

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Finn1 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:12 pm

Jim is no longer on the forum so he won't be getting these questions.

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:52 pm

I did not flat out say that I was going to lock the topic, I said I was considering it, but wanted to talk it over with the others first. In the forum rules, it states that drama is not tolerated, which is why I considered the idea.
Just because it is seen that Debby is the one carrying out the decisions, does not mean she is the one making the final decision. Responding to this thread was not left up to me to do it, I only took it upon my self to respond while no one else has been online much.
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:21 pm

Finn1 wrote:My point on referring to his ban was to demonstrate that it was Debby that did it, not the Blu's and that it is Debby who has the ultimate say over things.
She may have been the one to ban him... But there was a discussion about it sharing the harassing emails and it was actually ultimately Lynn's decision and she demanded that Debby ban him as he was given a warning and still continued to harass people. I think you are being very unfair to Debby.

Finn1 wrote: It could have been handled a bit differently and you would not of lost Jim, a really valued member and I, much less valued I know but useful sometimes.
It could of been handled better by both Jim and the other Admins... instead it was blown out of proportion by Jim not getting and answer on the spot or redirecting our sidebar in that topic, so he decided to quite without trying to work through the disagreement.




What is done is done with Jim, and he has made his choice. If you have questions that you have for a specific admin or mod you should send it to them in a PM. To keep this topic respectful and helpful maybe we should discuss constructive ways posts should be handled in the future as it seems this is one of the things that created this disagreement in the first place

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Katlin » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:12 pm

This has gone too far off topic, TBH I think this needs to be locked...
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by martinbernstein » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:23 pm

Katlin, please provide a good reason to lock it. I see absolutely zero good reasons. This website has a history of altering threads whenever tough questions are posed, so when mods call for locking this thread, I wonder why.

So far, only mods have called for locking this, while other participants have clearly expressed that they think locking it would be a bad idea.

If you think the thread has gone too far, why should you continue to read it? No one is making you. I don't think the thread has 'gone too far.' I'd like to continue participating.

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Katlin » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:49 pm

Martin, please don't get snippy with me. I'm reading it because it is my job to moderate. I can't do that if everyone is insisting it stays open simply to snipe with each other. We've gone past productive (although it never really was productive) and back to immature. Jim is no longer on the forum (sadly) so if the subject and the topic have been depleted, why continue.

No one is stopping you from making you own thread about...well whatever you want so long as it is within the forum rules.

As a completely new outsider looking in what would you think if you saw just this thread? I'd think...wow...the members are snipity with the mods and admins just because they all want to argue.

Now this is my opinion. I will not lock the topic unless there is a consensus and it looks as if that will not happen...

Also BTW Martin, the current mods have never altered threads just because it's a tough question.
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by arianwenarie » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:53 pm

martinbernstein wrote:Katlin, please provide a good reason to lock it. I see absolutely zero good reasons. This website has a history of altering threads whenever tough questions are posed, so when mods call for locking this thread, I wonder why.

So far, only mods have called for locking this, while other participants have clearly expressed that they think locking it would be a bad idea.

If you think the thread has gone too far, why should you continue to read it? No one is making you. I don't think the thread has 'gone too far.' I'd like to continue participating.
I originally was not going to "butt in" to this thread and just sit on the sidelines while keeping up with the thread and making my own opinion on the disccusion(s) at hand.

I agree with martin - that is, the folks who believe this thread doesn't need to be locked. Personally speaking, I think there may be an issue where regular users are concerned there may be a repeat in history - censorship, moving/deleting threads, etc back from the days the Blus were in power on this forum.

I feel this is a very valid concern and it should continue to be open for discussion no matter how old it is as this issue may have the potential to rock the foundation of the userbase on this forum.

Now, if I may, I'd like to suggest the off-topic turning point of this thread (Australian imports) be split from this thread into a new thread for discussion since the original thread that Kylie is referring to apparently can't be found? If it can be found and/or restored, then I think the relevant posts in this thread shouould be merged into the original, as is standard practice in a forum. ;)

And so, I go back to my spot sidelines to observe... 8-)

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:00 pm

Katlin wrote:This has gone too far off topic, TBH I think this needs to be locked...
Sorry :oops:

But kylie saying people deserve to know that there are petty, vindictive people out there who will do anything they can (no matter who they have to step on to do it), to try to destroy someone they dont like. i would like my thread restored.
The only petty and vindictive person is Lynn, not Marc, which that entire thread makes out with Lynn's posts and people who, at the time, believed her. Lynn stepped on everyone who stood in her way inc Tuuli and Regina who only spoke the truth but Lynn managed to turn a whole, entire forum against them...
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Karen » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:02 pm

Katlin wrote:.

As a completely new outsider looking in what would you think if you saw just this thread?
The main worry is how everything looks to the outside world? :?

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Rahne » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:27 pm

I've moved a few off-topic comments over to the 'threats' topic here: http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2975

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Tarheel » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:40 pm

martinbernstein wrote:Katlin, please provide a good reason to lock it. I see absolutely zero good reasons. This website has a history of altering threads whenever tough questions are posed, so when mods call for locking this thread, I wonder why.

So far, only mods have called for locking this, while other participants have clearly expressed that they think locking it would be a bad idea.

If you think the thread has gone too far, why should you continue to read it? No one is making you. I don't think the thread has 'gone too far.' I'd like to continue participating.
This is a perfect example why the forum can get out of control. Kaitlin is a moderator and any questions for the moderators should be addressed to them in a PM and not on this, or any other thread. The thread topic is about "Nivenj". Everyone likes good dicussions, but when the posts are so far off topic, it turns into nonsense. This makes not only the moderators jobs more difficult, it makes reading the posts painful. If anyone wants to go off topic, start a new post. Otherwise, expect the moderators to split the post and rename it, lock it, or archive it when needed.
A lot of people are quick to jump on a moderator publicly for doing their jobs in keeping the forum civil, but this is what you all expect them to do.
Please refrain from addressing people in a public manner if the question is solely for the idividual. This is what the PM functions are for. When you are writing a post, remember this is for all to see, treat others as you would want others to treat you, and if your post does not deal with the main topic, start a new post.
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by martinbernstein » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:59 pm

Tarheel wrote: "If anyone wants to go off topic, start a new post. Otherwise, expect the moderators to split the post and rename it, lock it, or archive it when needed."

Actually I did start a new thread in the Feedback and Technical Support section a few days with basically the same questions I have posed here. Then I got a PM from a mod telling me that that thread was an example of a thread that would be deleted since it contained similar content to my posts in a different thread.

So what do you suggest i do? Start a new thread and risk having a deleted because the contents is similar to this? Or continue posting on this thread and risk having the thread locked?

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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Tarheel » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:07 pm

martinbernstein wrote:So what do you suggest i do? Start a new thread and risk having a deleted because the contents is similar to this? Or continue posting on this thread and risk having the thread locked?
Since, this post is off topic, in which you continue to post off topic, you should start a new topic. I also suggest that if you fear your topic would get deleted because of the contents, you should PM maybe more than one Mod and ask why.

I am not up to speed on what topic or questions you have asked previously, but if you PM the moderators more questions, you might just get your answer. We are all more than willing to help.
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:52 pm

martinbernstein wrote:PM from a mod telling me that that thread was an example of a thread that would be deleted since it contained similar content to my posts in a different thread.
I'm sorry that is my fault. At the time, I saw the questions asked here first and in the new post second, I thought it was silly having it on the forum twice. But I did tell you before I removed it.

One thing that I see keep being mentioned about the drama issue, is no one is forcing anyone to read it. This is true, but the drama will always pop up somewhere and they may come across it and be upset by it, just like coming across something that can be considered offensive. No one is being forced to read what is offensive, but some will still complain about it. So why should we tolerate one thing that upsets people, and not tolerate the other?
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Katlin » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:17 am

Karen wrote:
Katlin wrote:.

As a completely new outsider looking in what would you think if you saw just this thread?
The main worry is how everything looks to the outside world? :?
No, of course not, I'm just trying to put things into perspective, I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense.
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Re: With Regret / Why cannot I not respond to Nivenj?

Post by Lynwae » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:27 pm

This is only drama.
I won't respond to it, not because I'm an admin and have to take some distance, but because this discussion is really unfair with Rahne and Debby who are doing a lot of work for the breed.
Is drama really necessary for people who are sharing something related to feelings?

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