The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:23 am

arianwenarie wrote:Since this seems an appropriate place to post this article that I stumbled upon on FB...here ya go. Very good read, IMHO. ;)

http://www.examiner.com/article/dog-whi ... st-century
I kinda posted that a page back (juuust above Taz :D ) :lol: But still a good read nonetheless...
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There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tiantai » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:45 pm

One of the things that got me misinterpreting and unfortunately believing in Millan's crap about holding a dog down to display dominance though is having witnessed my Buddy's father holding him down by the neck in the past whenever he tried to steal a bite from one of his siblings (usually from his sister Didi's) bowl of kibbles. Buddy had a tendency to take food that belonged to other dogs including from his best friend Gucchi the Chow but every moment he did any of that stuff in the presence of Youpi (his father) whenever my uncle brought his parents and some of his siblings over he would be held down by the older male as if the dog was saying "that's NOT yours, behave!". However, Youpi never tackled him or forced him into helpless submissions, Buddy always managed to break out when held down, he was not forced to stay down, unlike Millan who pushes the dog to the floor and forces them for quite a long time. So in a way, while Millan was partially correct about "snapping the dog out of it", he adds additional forcing which is very overdoing things. Youpi only held his son down for a few 4 seconds or so but would eventually let go and off Buddy went ignoring the bowl.
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by arianwenarie » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:38 am

TerriHolt wrote:
arianwenarie wrote:Since this seems an appropriate place to post this article that I stumbled upon on FB...here ya go. Very good read, IMHO. ;)

http://www.examiner.com/article/dog-whi ... st-century
I kinda posted that a page back (juuust above Taz :D ) :lol: But still a good read nonetheless...
:oops: Ooops...but you see, it was such a good read, it must be on at least one more page to those who missed it. ;)

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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by arianwenarie » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:43 am

Tiantai wrote:Youpi only held his son down for a few 4 seconds or so but would eventually let go and off Buddy went ignoring the bowl.
4 seconds seems about right, but imo still quite long if speaking in dog world terms... From my experience, proper corrections in the dog world are quick and done, so it's literally a second; possibly almost 2 seconds, but usually no longer than that. The 4 second "rule" does exist though - in the first 2 seconds, the dog is assessing a situation, in the 3rd second, they're making a decision and then on the 4th second, they act on that decision.

But for humans, 4 seconds is super fast...which is why most people often say they "didn't see it coming". <-- that's people who don't have in-depth knowledge of canine body language. ;)

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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:00 am

arianwenarie wrote:
TerriHolt wrote:
arianwenarie wrote:Since this seems an appropriate place to post this article that I stumbled upon on FB...here ya go. Very good read, IMHO. ;)

http://www.examiner.com/article/dog-whi ... st-century
I kinda posted that a page back (juuust above Taz :D ) :lol: But still a good read nonetheless...
:oops: Ooops...but you see, it was such a good read, it must be on at least one more page to those who missed it. ;)
Yes, is was a good read (and it is very relieving to see i'm not the only one who misses things :D ).
arianwenarie wrote:But for humans, 4 seconds is super fast...which is why most people often say they "didn't see it coming". <-- that's people who don't have in-depth knowledge of canine body language.
I don't have a clue about professional dog training, but even i can see it coming... Esp the video of holly (that poor dog had to spend 2 weeks with him been tormented... erm... i mean, rehabilitated).
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There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:23 am

Not everyone is as happy with Titchmarsh as we are :roll:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml

Has anyone ever noticed how aggressive Millan fans can be? Like her ^ Her other half says
‘WTF did Alan Titchmarsh say about Cesar Millan that’s seriously put my wife on the warpath? He should be afraid, very afraid!’
I mean, why the aggression?
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There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tiantai » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:11 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
Tiantai wrote:Youpi only held his son down for a few 4 seconds or so but would eventually let go and off Buddy went ignoring the bowl.
4 seconds seems about right, but imo still quite long if speaking in dog world terms... From my experience, proper corrections in the dog world are quick and done, so it's literally a second; possibly almost 2 seconds, but usually no longer than that. The 4 second "rule" does exist though - in the first 2 seconds, the dog is assessing a situation, in the 3rd second, they're making a decision and then on the 4th second, they act on that decision.

But for humans, 4 seconds is super fast...which is why most people often say they "didn't see it coming". <-- that's people who don't have in-depth knowledge of canine body language. ;)
Well that's the thing, dogs are fast thinkers than we are and many can even predict our upcoming thoughts before that idea even pops up in our mind by looking at our faces :lol:

I don't exactly remember if it was exactly four seconds as this was ages ago and all of those dogs are no longer alive so my memories could be blurred a bit but it was around there for sure. There was no force, no tackling, and nothing like how Cesar describes the idea of an alpha dog although size may have also played a role since Youpi did discipline Gucchi once when he saw him getting a bit rough with the other chihuahuas in the garden. But unlike how he did it with his children he merely tapped the big guy on the side followed with a short bark all this happening in 2 seconds and the chow would settle in ~5 seconds and still looking full of energy. Though the results were the same, no force, no tackling, and nothing of the way Millan paints an alpha dog to be.

Aside from all that other controversial stuff, Millan probably doesn't realize that there is another language barrier between him and the dogs cause I can't help but to feel sorry for the dog panting on the floor as he holds it down and the way it looks like he's strangling it. Kind of makes me wonder how he would be treated by other dogs if he was somehow transformed into a dog :twisted:
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by arianwenarie » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:22 am

Tiantai wrote:
arianwenarie wrote:
Tiantai wrote:Youpi only held his son down for a few 4 seconds or so but would eventually let go and off Buddy went ignoring the bowl.
4 seconds seems about right, but imo still quite long if speaking in dog world terms... From my experience, proper corrections in the dog world are quick and done, so it's literally a second; possibly almost 2 seconds, but usually no longer than that. The 4 second "rule" does exist though - in the first 2 seconds, the dog is assessing a situation, in the 3rd second, they're making a decision and then on the 4th second, they act on that decision.

But for humans, 4 seconds is super fast...which is why most people often say they "didn't see it coming". <-- that's people who don't have in-depth knowledge of canine body language. ;)
Well that's the thing, dogs are fast thinkers than we are and many can even predict our upcoming thoughts before that idea even pops up in our mind by looking at our faces :lol:

I don't exactly remember if it was exactly four seconds as this was ages ago and all of those dogs are no longer alive so my memories could be blurred a bit but it was around there for sure. There was no force, no tackling, and nothing like how Cesar describes the idea of an alpha dog although size may have also played a role since Youpi did discipline Gucchi once when he saw him getting a bit rough with the other chihuahuas in the garden. But unlike how he did it with his children he merely tapped the big guy on the side followed with a short bark all this happening in 2 seconds and the chow would settle in ~5 seconds and still looking full of energy. Though the results were the same, no force, no tackling, and nothing of the way Millan paints an alpha dog to be.

Aside from all that other controversial stuff, Millan probably doesn't realize that there is another language barrier between him and the dogs cause I can't help but to feel sorry for the dog panting on the floor as he holds it down and the way it looks like he's strangling it. Kind of makes me wonder how he would be treated by other dogs if he was somehow transformed into a dog :twisted:
Well, the only reason the dogs know what's going to happen before we do is because they read our body language - very subtle cues. Most often, they watch our eyes because apparently, our eyes tell them most information. XD Our body language isn't something we actively think about - our movements are from subconscious... so we would actually need to take time to think about what we're actually doing; that takes a lot more time than it takes for a dog to read our body language. In the dog world, their language IS body language. Ours...not so much. :P

IMHO, I think Milan knows exactly what he's doing and he's taking advantage of the media hype for personal gain. Yes, he does get bitten quite a bit, but again, it brings up the ratings...supposedly; as he does have a rather large (rabid) fan base. :lol: (I'm obviously not a Cesar Milan fan, folks...no offense to Milan fans out there. ;) ) And in turn, ratings = more money incoming for him because the show goes on...

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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tiantai » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:58 am

Although I dislike most of the crap he does, I have to admit that there is still this common ground between us though. Milan is not exactly an evil-hearted person, his intention is to save the dogs from being sent to those shelters and I do support him on his mission to save the pitbulls from being euthanized and break this age-old myth about those dogs being a dangerous breed when 95% of the time it's the owners' fault. I just hate the way he does so, his methods and all which ends up putting a dog into helpless submissions and suppressing them with force. This is exactly what makes him a controversial "whisperer" considering he's upsetting so many people and yet he's trying to save the dogs and give them a chance to live their full lives out but doing it the wrong way. :(
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Nino » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:54 pm

I want to give CM a kick in the soft place under the rib cage..
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tiantai » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:15 am

Nino wrote:I want to give CM a kick in the soft place under the rib cage..
:lol: :lol: Save some for me, Line

Aside from him, I also want to clobber the lights out of Jennifer McCarthy, the woman who appeared in one of his episode, particularly the one with the wolfdogs and dang she was saying a BUNCH of nonsense and the way she growled at them and all the other crap making her no different from Millan. We do NOT suppress wolfdogs or any dogs and both "experts" were clearly doing it.
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tatzel » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:08 pm

So

I went to youtube and watched 2 or 3 episodes to get the bigger picture of him.
Here is my conclusion:
I watched some episodes which opverall seemed newer, and I think he might have learned a thing or two. He was working with a dog which was aggressive towards bikes (moreso bikes the mailmen use in Australia), and I actually expected him to subdue the dog to the bike by "Tssst"-ing him into the ground until he was "calm-submissive" in presence of the running bike - quite contrary, he actually worked with liver treats to make the dog like the bike, simple counter-conditioning at it's best, and I was happy to see that he's not only using punishment bashed training methods.
Overall, he gave me the feeling like he really wanted to help the dogs (and their owners), and seemingly in most if not all cases, he successfully did.

I think he used to use a lot more punishment based methods, but has since strayed away from them mostly and only really uses them when he thinks he sees any "dominance" motivated agression (like in the food guarder Holly).

To be fair, if you have a dog which isn't all too bright, working with treats may take a lot longer before it really "sinks in" and "gets" what you want it do, whereas punishment based methods seem to be almost immediate, although in my personal experience, never really that lasting or altering (I want to carefully notice that it really depends on the dog and it's personality, some really seem to respond better to intimidation and/or punishment, wether this is ethical or not is another question). Then again, punishment based methods doesn't teach your dog how to behave and what to do instead of the unwanted behaviour, but teaches it to shun whatever behaviour you're trying to surpress with punishment/intimidation.

Then again, we never will get to know about all the things that might have happened off-camera - the good and the bad stuff. I have heard rumor that there were a few episodes that weren't aired because they were "too much".

One can just hope that he takes the critique towards his methods to heart, and continues studying canines, canine body language and how to train dogs without punishment.

... and to be fair, I've been looking around but I can't say I've found a single book yet which could throughoughly explain me how dogs work, which is rather sad, given that we've been living with dogs for so long already.
(hint: if anyone has suggestions for great books/DVDs on dogs, body languge and so forth, please recomment!)
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Whispyr » Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:17 am

I had seen At The End of My Leash on Canadas TLC (now Slice?) Network a couple years ago with Brad Pattison as a trainer. I thought he was pretty solid but it has been a while. Has anyone else seen his stuff?

Its also a shame Ceasar gets bit so often, though as someone already explained he makes does repress then just attack so not really a suprise or even so much that he cant read body language. (Even though he cant anyways)

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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Whiltierna » Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:40 am

I had been trained to work with rescued dogs via volunteering. When I found Ceasar Milan on YouTube, I watched a lot of the episodes. Here is what I've learned from Cesar that I see differently:
In my opinion, yes, many dogs want to follow, to please, to be the couch potato of the relationship, thus being the leader works, but patience to stand there for 5 minutes without embarrassment works (better) instead of a leash tug to redirect the eyes to me.
Ownership, not dominance, is key, too, especially for having people over or putting your ice cream dish on the coffee table/floor and have it be there when you get back.
But one thing that I found to be true is the energy, and teaching children to be calm and assertive is just a different way to say be confident and decisive, those exact feelings are what children feel first when riding a bike without training wheels. :)

But again we all have perspective and have seen the dogs that own/control their humans,..and feel bad for the dog. .

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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by arianwenarie » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:25 am

Whiltierna wrote:I had been trained to work with rescued dogs via volunteering. When I found Ceasar Milan on YouTube, I watched a lot of the episodes. Here is what I've learned from Cesar that I see differently:
In my opinion, yes, many dogs want to follow, to please, to be the couch potato of the relationship, thus being the leader works, but patience to stand there for 5 minutes without embarrassment works (better) instead of a leash tug to redirect the eyes to me.
Ownership, not dominance, is key, too, especially for having people over or putting your ice cream dish on the coffee table/floor and have it be there when you get back.
But one thing that I found to be true is the energy, and teaching children to be calm and assertive is just a different way to say be confident and decisive, those exact feelings are what children feel first when riding a bike without training wheels. :)

But again we all have perspective and have seen the dogs that own/control their humans,..and feel bad for the dog. .
Instead of telling people to be "calm and assertive", I always tell people to be "calm and confident". There's a huge difference in the meaning of the words used. When people hear assertive, they usually immediately think "dominance", which then translates to people thinking they always have to 'win' everything. But that's far from what dog training and bond-building is supposed to be....you're not out to win every "battle" with your dog. Your goal should be to be firm, but most importantly, FAIR. Confidence means you won't be wishy-washy about your decisions; you'll see that you're going to follow through on what's reasonably asked of your dog and that you'll stop before the dog shuts down.

Sorry for the rambly rant, but it's one of my biggest pet peeves when I hear people use the words "dominance" or "assertive" when it comes to dog training. That should never be the case. IMO, dog training should always be the human being calm, confident and fair. That's what a true pack leader is supposed to be...and any good teacher possesses those qualities too. ;)

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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Katlin » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:40 am

arianwenarie wrote: Instead of telling people to be "calm and assertive", I always tell people to be "calm and confident". There's a huge difference in the meaning of the words used.
VERY well said, I totally agree!
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Karen » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:55 am

Katlin wrote:
arianwenarie wrote: Instead of telling people to be "calm and assertive", I always tell people to be "calm and confident". There's a huge difference in the meaning of the words used.
VERY well said, I totally agree!
+1

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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Nino » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:37 pm

I actually used a CM trick the other day when in the dog forest..

a group of 3 very barky Finnish Laphunds bitches came together (thereby being a pack) and we was else alone with our 7½ month GSD who can also be quite barky..
So to ease the presentation not having to do the whole there might be a problem thing I turned our girl around and presented her butt to the two of other dogs, which indeed did work very well. they were then cut loose and we forgot to present the last one and the difference between the dogs was apparent, she wanted to smell her and our girl was protective of her butt lol..
but it worked quite good else (and I will probably be doing it again in similar situations)
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by caninesrock » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:58 pm

I sometimes enjoy watching this show,but there are many things I don't agree with. For example, in one episode, he takes a dog that is fear-aggressive towards children and puts it in a room with children that he instructs to run around it. First, off I am surprised the parents even let him put their children in that kind of danger. And second off, what was he thinking?!! Those children could have been seriously mauled or even killed by that dog!!! I have also seen atleast two other episodes that prove that his slogan, "There is no dog I can't rehabiliate", isn't true. In both those episodes,he ends up taking in the dog himself and "trading" the owners for another dog. That isn't fixing the problem, trading off a so-called "problem dog" for a another dog when most if not all of the time the owners are the ones who are the problem. I'm personally of the belief that there are no problem dogs, only problem owners. I also just watched the special episode on wolfdogs and the inaccuracies of not only Cesar but the so called wolf/wolfdog "expert" he brought in to help made me want to scream. First off, he constantly referred to them as "hybrids" when it is now known that dogs and wolves are the same species. And second off and even worst, is that 2 of the 3 so called "wolf hybrids" that both he and his wolf/wolfdog "expert" identified as being part wolf, looked 100% dog. One looked like a malamute mix breed and the other looked like a white German Shepherd or white German Shepherd mix. The only expertise the wolfdog "expert" showed was that when the White GSD owners said they were told their dog was 60% wolf by the breeders, she said "She's definitely not 60% wolf...", to which I though "Hallelauh! She's finally showing she does have some kind of expertise!" But then, my faith in her quickly skyrocketed down when she added the part of, "...but there is definitely some wolf in her." What kind of expert can't tell the difference between a white GSD or white GSD mix with no wolf in it at all and an actual wolfdog?!! The 3rd dog looked some what German Shepherdy,but did have somewhat of a wolfy-look as well and some very wolfy-sounding behaviors so may have been a low-content wolfdog with actual wolf in him. In addition,some of Cesar's methods that involve physical contact, I find downright abusive. True discipline, in my opinion, doesn't require having to do anything physical. There are other ways you can go about disciplining a dog such as giving them a time out in their kennel, simply yelling at them as many dogs will get submissive even when they are only yelled at, taking away a favorite toy and not giving it back until they behave themselves, ignoring them until they behave themselves,etc.

As for the Victoria lady you guys are talking about, I've never heard of her before. Does she air in the United States or only the UK? What is her show called?

I know there was a show that premiered here in the US somewhat recently with a guy who was training dogs in New York and the show seemed to be a Dog-Whisper-wantabe. I only saw a couple of episodes of this show and have no idea if it's still running or got cancels and I don't remember what it was called. All I remember is that it aired on a station that was weird and not related to animals,like a basic cable network such as ABC or NBC or CBS,etc. as opposed to an actual animal or nature related channel like National Geographic, Nat Geo Wild, Animal Planet, or Discovery,etc. One of the episodes I watched was a lady who had a pet lap dog of some sort who she dressed in little outfits and treated like a human. And the trainer guy convinced her to let her dog go to some kind of doggy play center where the dog got to play with other dogs and be a dog.

Edit:Found the show I was talking about with the New York dog trainer guy. Turns out it ran for less than a year before it got canceled. It was called "Dogs in the City".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogs_in_the_City

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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tiantai » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:45 pm

I really felt like kicking her in the face when I watched that episode as well. She really sounded more like some actress brought in to add more drama upon the wolfdog world than an expert. All this "don't mix them" crap without a clear reason why not to. A true expert would have also discouraged mixing wolves and dogs together while explaining why in a more fact-based reason. But the way Jennifer did it, example calling them "confused" does not come anywhere close to the truth nor justifies why an inexperienced person should not mix these animals. The semi-exotic animals I've been around don't act like the way she paints most of them to be in the general scope. Even a no-content wolfdog can be extremely aggressive if not raised properly, and growling into the dog's face like how she did was a VERY stupid method to settle the dog down. It only makes a dog more nervous and eventually if you hold them down long enough they would snap at you. Even a lab would snap at a person for growling in their face let alone doing it on a supposed wolfdog.
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tatzel » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:51 am

caninesrock wrote: I also just watched the special episode on wolfdogs and the inaccuracies of not only Cesar but the so called wolf/wolfdog "expert" he brought in to help made me want to scream. First off, he constantly referred to them as "hybrids" when it is now known that dogs and wolves are the same species. And second off and even worst, is that 2 of the 3 so called "wolf hybrids" that both he and his wolf/wolfdog "expert" identified as being part wolf, looked 100% dog. One looked like a malamute mix breed and the other looked like a white German Shepherd or white German Shepherd mix. The only expertise the wolfdog "expert" showed was that when the White GSD owners said they were told their dog was 60% wolf by the breeders, she said "She's definitely not 60% wolf...", to which I though "Hallelauh! She's finally showing she does have some kind of expertise!" But then, my faith in her quickly skyrocketed down when she added the part of, "...but there is definitely some wolf in her." What kind of expert can't tell the difference between a white GSD or white GSD mix with no wolf in it at all and an actual wolfdog?!! The 3rd dog looked some what German Shepherdy,but did have somewhat of a wolfy-look as well and some very wolfy-sounding behaviors so may have been a low-content wolfdog with actual wolf in him.
Gosh, thanks! I thought the same, especially about the so called wolfdogs. The second case was the only animal that struck me as actual wolfdog, the other dogs seemed to be just that: dogs.
I also found it questionable when she adviced the owner sof the mal/husky/whatever mix to cower over the dog and grown while grabbing it at it's neck fur - that doesn't strike me as a smart thing to do with a regular dog, but with a wolf(dog)??!
caninesrock wrote:As for the Victoria lady you guys are talking about, I've never heard of her before. Does she air in the United States or only the UK? What is her show called?
I'm not sure where it's aired, or was aired, but her show is called "It's me or the dog"
caninesrock wrote:All I remember is that it aired on a station that was weird and not related to animals,like a basic cable network such as ABC or NBC or CBS,etc. as opposed to an actual animal or nature related channel like National Geographic, Nat Geo Wild, Animal Planet, or Discovery,etc.
Just one thing about Nat Geo because people actually do think it's a relyable source; I hard a lot of shows they produce are exaggerated and simply wrong, like the whole Fatal Attraction thing.
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by chelle784 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:03 pm

Woah I didn't realise so many people were cesar haters!

I have watched his shows, do not agree with a lot of stuff, don't like the collars but then again I have never had to deal with dogs like some of those in his show so from the owners point of view, they are pretty desperate (except I think as someone pointed out a lot of those owners are the problem) and I don't think Cesar has evil intentions.

I want to stress again that I don't like a lot of things but maybe also look at it from the other side. I think that there is no set in stone way to train a dog but instead many methods - regardless of which method, every trainer is going to get criticised and judged by someone. I don't like some of cesars methods but I accept that this one of the many ways.

I cannot comment on the 'cruel' episodes as I don't think I have seen one but again peoples idea of cruel is different I find even between countries. As an exmaple I think it is cruel to dock dogs' tails and crop their ears but Im from the Uk where that is illegal because of the cruel reason. However I moved to Canada recently where the idea of this being cruel is not the same as the UK based on the dogs I see here. I think it is the same for the 'touch' thing that cesar does except his intention is to snap the dog out of it as opposed to hurting the dog. It's one method that may work on those types of dogs (i dont know im no expert and again not had to deal with dogs like in the show) some ppl will agree, some ppl won't. Just like some ppl agree with smacking their kids, some won't (i think the fact that only scotland has made this illegal says a lot)

I'll say again before anyone gets annoyed - i don't agree with a lot of what he does - I'm just trying to look at the other side as I am not sure how many people (other than the trainers on here) have had to deal with dogs like the ones on the show.

Also when i was in the Uk i seem to remember watching victoria stilwell a while ago but the dogs used in her shows are a lot different to the ones in cesar's. the episode I remember watching - the issue was the dogs still pooped in the house when the owners were gone...

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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tatzel » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:40 am

I think what I don't like about Cesar's mentality is that he basically says you have to be boss over your dog. Like he somehow gives me the impression that dogs have to be controlled every second of their lives because otherwise they try to ~*dominate*~ you.
I found that to be very untrue and that dogs actually rather want to work with us together and turn to us for help when they can not solve a problem on their own instead of just going ahead and doing their own thing trying to succeed regardless like wolf(dogs) do.

Kind of related: people have been juding Victoria Stilwell over her advising a black cocker spaniel to be put down. From what I could gather, the dog was not only a food guarder, he attacked family members out of nowhere with no reasoning behind his attacks. Appearently another cocker from the same breeder is just like that, implying it might be a genetical thing.
Whereas Cesar advocates that every dog can be fixed/rehabilitated. I wonder what everyone else's opinion on this is. Do you believe every dog can be saved? Or do you think that it is sometimes nessecairy to put down a dog?
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by TerriHolt » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:24 pm

IMO, With experience, I don't think every dog can be saved. I think some have gone through too much or byb's breed regardless of temperament for many generations. I think they can be made stable but if that stability falters, who will be at risk? If fear has over taken so much, sometimes there is only the kind option.

My mum got me a Pappilon x Something when I was younger. We were the 14th home he'd had and the previous 13 had tried all behaviourists and medication. The rescue had tried rehabilitating him using in-house behaviourists with no success.
My mum likes a challenge and she didn't believe them as to how bad he was... The rescue told her this was last chance street for him, he was on death row when she got there.

Long story short, I was the only person he hadn't bit by the time my mum took him back... I was totally gutted, I did't understand at the time why my mum was taking my dog away but I didn't see his bad side... He didn't have a bad side when I was there, he only had a problem with grown-ups. I could do anything with him and he would take it... Our neighbor didn't help kicking him under the gate because he was yapping and snarling under it.
I was told the usual of "he ended up going to live on a farm where no one can bother him, he has lots of space to run and he will be happy now"... The things you believe as a kid eh?

He was just too mentally broken to be fixed by anyone. All the training, understanding and love in the world couldn't save him.
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by HiTenshi16 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:57 pm

TerriHolt wrote:I was told the usual of "he ended up going to live on a farm where no one can bother him, he has lots of space to run and he will be happy now"... The things you believe as a kid eh?
My dad told me this same thing about the Dalamtion we had when I was a child :evil:
Tatzel wrote:Kind of related: people have been juding Victoria Stilwell over her advising a black cocker spaniel to be put down. From what I could gather, the dog was not only a food guarder, he attacked family members out of nowhere with no reasoning behind his attacks. Appearently another cocker from the same breeder is just like that, implying it might be a genetical thing.
Whereas Cesar advocates that every dog can be fixed/rehabilitated. I wonder what everyone else's opinion on this is. Do you believe every dog can be saved? Or do you think that it is sometimes nessecairy to put down a dog?
I remember watching this one show on Netflix called Dogtown, where they make sure each dog is able to be adopted out, if some are unadoptable due to like their temperaments, they remain at the sanctuary for the remainder of their lives where they are cared for. There was one episode where a young dog that was aggressive had been there for a long time, yet they still worked with him. When the dog was in its senior years, they finally had a break-through.
So I think, yes, every dog can be saved, but it depends on how many years will someone try to work with the dog, if someone does not know how to, how many places do you know who are willing to take in an aggressive dog for such a long time. Most people want a quick fix, and since they are not able to get that quick fix, rather than giving the problem to someone else, it is put down.
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Cornelia1986 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:21 pm

HiTenshi16 wrote:
TerriHolt wrote:I was told the usual of "he ended up going to live on a farm where no one can bother him, he has lots of space to run and he will be happy now"... The things you believe as a kid eh?
My dad told me this same thing about the Dalamtion we had when I was a child :evil:
Tatzel wrote:Kind of related: people have been juding Victoria Stilwell over her advising a black cocker spaniel to be put down. From what I could gather, the dog was not only a food guarder, he attacked family members out of nowhere with no reasoning behind his attacks. Appearently another cocker from the same breeder is just like that, implying it might be a genetical thing.
Whereas Cesar advocates that every dog can be fixed/rehabilitated. I wonder what everyone else's opinion on this is. Do you believe every dog can be saved? Or do you think that it is sometimes nessecairy to put down a dog?
I remember watching this one show on Netflix called Dogtown, where they make sure each dog is able to be adopted out, if some are unadoptable due to like their temperaments, they remain at the sanctuary for the remainder of their lives where they are cared for. There was one episode where a young dog that was aggressive had been there for a long time, yet they still worked with him. When the dog was in its senior years, they finally had a break-through.
So I think, yes, every dog can be saved, but it depends on how many years will someone try to work with the dog, if someone does not know how to, how many places do you know who are willing to take in an aggressive dog for such a long time. Most people want a quick fix, and since they are not able to get that quick fix, rather than giving the problem to someone else, it is put down.
Hm - if I would know it will take two or three years to fix the dog it would be ok for me. I do not have children! If parents decide to give the dog away or a professional opinion is to put a dog down I would understand this to 100 per cent. Nobody should risk his own health or the health of the other family members. And how happy would anyone be with a dog which gets better manners in his senior days? I would not want to live together with a dog for 10 years, every day trying not to loose my fingers... With everyday training. Maybe this sounds cruel but it is my opinion. :oops:
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Katlin » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:39 pm

My parents, bless them, have always put their kids before their pets. If a cat or dog is having a temperament issue that is difficult to fix or needs lifelong medication, they make the hard choice. I have two examples.

Eeyore was my 2 year old DMH cat that was such a sweet guy...then all of a sudden he began peeing everywhere. Not just small amounts, it was as if someone ran around the house with a full water gun and sprayed everything. If anyone here has cats, they know how much it would smell. My parents dutifully took him to the vet where Eeyore was diagnosed with a severe infection, as well as the feline version of ADHD and depression. He would have to be put on anti-depressants for the remainder of his shortened life. We tried for a week and I swear if someone came to my house they would have though I tranquillized my cat...which is essentially what we did. He would lay in awkward positions and randomly snap out of it for short periods to fight with my other cats (Meeko [RIP ] and Bailey). It was crazy! This may have been able to be fixed, but after two weeks of this my parents chose to put him down.

My other example was Snoopy, our yorkie. As a puppy my mom didn't really know the breed before we bought him. To be fair, none of us did... we just wanted a small dog. Snoopy was not socialized very well as a puppy and my mom tended to stop us kids from petting him while he was sleeping or playing...so Snoopy became very very attached to my mom...to the point of severity. When he hit about a year we starting having issues. He would violently attack other dogs on leash and offleash. He would bite all the kids if we got near his bed and my mom while he was sitting with her. He actually became so terrified of my sister's feet that he would viciously bite her when she walked by him. He has bitten through the thickness of my cheek and lip because I moved on the couch he was sitting on while he had a bone. He also bit through the webbing of my hand because I walked past him without putting his leash on. Both my sisters were bitten in the face badly enough to see the layer of fat underneath the skin. He turned into a very mean and difficult to manage dog. The last straw was when my sister was bitten near her eye for bending over the trash, and my mom said no! he jumped up and bit her in the hand. My mom still blames herself for Snoopy's behaviour and he also had to be put down.

It's hard to have animals that you think can be fixed, but no one has the time, money, or patience to try and sort them out. Some pets just don't fit with some families and they think they have no choice. I do not blame my parents, but if Wylie ever had problems I would go much further to try and fix it.
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tatzel » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:37 pm

My mum had to make that decission once, too.

When I was 3 years old we moved from Berlin back down to Hessen, where the rest of our family resided. She had to move fast for a reason and hadn't time to find a flat down there yet, so she had to give her doberman Won to a dog day care center for around 4 weeks while we were living with my grandparents (and a large dog would have been just too much).
The day care center lady told my mum she should not come to visit Won, she claimed it would just be harder for him if she would come by any day (that alone should have made her suspicious because it just makes no sense when you think about)

Either way, after several weeks (I think 3-4 or so) my mum came to pick up her dog after we finally found a flat and she was simply shocked; Won was way too thin, he was just skin and bones and he was filthy all over with drit and feces. What the hell they have done to that dog, nobody knows, but something isnide of him broke, that much was clear.

When I wanted to cuddle him (not sure if it was the day we got him back or several days later, I don't remember) h snapped me into my cheek without warning. He didn't tear my skin I think, but he had never ever bitten me before. I learned to walk on that dog, he allowed me to pull myself up to him when trying to stand up and would walk in my pace, he also would always lay down next to my stroller when we were outside. He was a patient and good dog, but he was different after we got him back from the day care.

My mum took him to the vet and he too told her that maybe next time it wouldn't be just a snap, but an actual bite. It was a hard decission, but my mum also didn't want to give him up for adoption, not knowing where he would go. So she let the vet put him down.

It angered me to hear years later that my mum never pressed any charges against the day care center. As far as I know, it is still up and running, and I keep warning people about it.
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Cornelia1986 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:06 pm

Tatzel wrote:My mum had to make that decission once, too.

When I was 3 years old we moved from Berlin back down to Hessen, where the rest of our family resided. She had to move fast for a reason and hadn't time to find a flat down there yet, so she had to give her doberman Won to a dog day care center for around 4 weeks while we were living with my grandparents (and a large dog would have been just too much).
The day care center lady told my mum she should not come to visit Won, she claimed it would just be harder for him if she would come by any day (that alone should have made her suspicious because it just makes no sense when you think about)

Either way, after several weeks (I think 3-4 or so) my mum came to pick up her dog after we finally found a flat and she was simply shocked; Won was way too thin, he was just skin and bones and he was filthy all over with drit and feces. What the hell they have done to that dog, nobody knows, but something isnide of him broke, that much was clear.

When I wanted to cuddle him (not sure if it was the day we got him back or several days later, I don't remember) h snapped me into my cheek without warning. He didn't tear my skin I think, but he had never ever bitten me before. I learned to walk on that dog, he allowed me to pull myself up to him when trying to stand up and would walk in my pace, he also would always lay down next to my stroller when we were outside. He was a patient and good dog, but he was different after we got him back from the day care.

My mum took him to the vet and he too told her that maybe next time it wouldn't be just a snap, but an actual bite. It was a hard decission, but my mum also didn't want to give him up for adoption, not knowing where he would go. So she let the vet put him down.

It angered me to hear years later that my mum never pressed any charges against the day care center. As far as I know, it is still up and running, and I keep warning people about it.
OMG what an awful story! So sorry for your Mam :(
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tatzel » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:28 pm

Cornelia1986 wrote: OMG what an awful story! So sorry for your Mam :(
She recently told me that she still mourns over his loss sometimes, he was her favourite dog of the ones she has owned yet.

Maybe after Tessa, her current dog, she will get a Doberman again.
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Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:49 pm

That is such a sad story... really terrible. :(
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