The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

All off-topic discussions; a place to discuss anything and everything!
User avatar
Katlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Katlin » Tue May 22, 2012 6:06 pm

Lol I didn't make up the title...but it's sorta true. This is an article I found this morning.

For Cesar Millan, the goateed tough-guy, best-selling author, and cable-TV star who throws down pit bulls, it's time for new rules. And for countless dog owners, dog lovers, or stray humans skittish at the big-ass Doberman mix approaching them in the park, it's more than a matter of cult personality. We want our damn dogs to behave, and we're afraid of losing flesh--or of having to surrender "untrainable" dogs to the pound. Problem is, Cesar's ways, experts say, aren't the best ways for dogs. Or for us. Yes, yes, his alpha-dog training tips make good television and may provide fast results. But what happens when the show's over?

"My position is, Millan is a poseur," Claudia Kawczynska, editor in chief of The Bark magazine, says of the ex--dog groomer. "He is a hairdresser, not the real guy in terms of being an expert. He doesn't have credentials. And it is shocking to me how easily people are ready to fall for it."

With approximately two million strays euthanized in the U. S. each year, Kawczynska sees reason to worry: "He is doing a disservice to the real experts in the field," she says. "He gives quick fixes, but they are not going to be a solution for most families with problem dogs."

Ken Ramirez, an animal behaviorist and the chief animal trainer at Chicago's Shedd Aquarium, believes everyday dog owners need to learn how to better observe and understand their dogs' behavior. Then they can reward the behavior they want and either ignore, avoid, or distract them from unwanted behavior. It's reinforcement versus enforcement. While both he and Millan believe the average dog owner--as well as dog--needs better training, Ramirez remains wary of instructors who yearn to make animals learn through tough-love techniques, or "aversives." "I may teach some of the methods Cesar uses," says Ramirez, who also trains bomb-sniffing dogs and their handlers, "but only as a last resort."

Millan fancies himself a faux wolf by practicing--and promoting--the alpha-dog theory of training, whereby he "joins the pack" and gains dominance. These alpha-training-yanking-learning techniques (in theory) then transfer swiftly to the dogs' owners. All of which makes Millan today a solid B-list Hollywood personality.

"The cause of most behavioral problems is miscommunication and not dominance issues," says Patricia McConnell, Ph.D., associate professor of zoology at the University of Wisconsin and author of For the Love of a Dog: Understanding Emotion in You and Your Best Friend. Either dogs don't know what their owners want, she says, or we inadvertently have taught them to do the wrong thing. "Most behavioral problems can be solved by owners learning how to teach a dog what it is they want, by using the science of how animals learn."

Yet the showmanship continues. On Millan's Dog Whisperer, he goes house to bad-dog house, jerking leashes, shaking scruffs of necks, and throwing the occasional kick--in a wolfman-to-wolfpack fashion, except that the dogs aren't truly fooled. They don't believe he's a dog. What's worse, says Janis Bradley, a San Francisco trainer and author of the helpfully titled Dogs Bite, the dogs often fall into a helpless state Millan calls "calm submission," but what trained behaviorists see as possible chronic stress or "shutdown," which can lead to a dog eventually fighting back.

"I like some of what Cesar Millan says," says Steve Dale, a syndicated pet columnist and host of Steve Dale's Pet World on national radio. "I do believe individual dogs like consistency. And being a leader isn't a bad thing....But to do that, you don't have to be physical, because what typically happens is aggression begets aggression."

Read more: http://www.esquire.com/features/esquire ... z1vcSwCeJv
Polarose Tamaskan
Polardog Outfitters
Owner of Sierra Kaweah RN RI TDI TRN TTDN CRN-MCL @ Polarose

User avatar
nivenj
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:33 pm
Location: UK

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by nivenj » Tue May 22, 2012 6:14 pm

Lol, dont let Finn1 see this. :D
Image
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.” --Aristotle *

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Booma » Tue May 22, 2012 7:58 pm

Good article. I like that English dogtrainer chick much better
Image Image

User avatar
Dallas
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 10:19 pm
Location: Austria

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Dallas » Tue May 22, 2012 8:04 pm

saw this on fb today, great post
Good article. I like that English dogtrainer chick much better
lol Victoria Stilwell?
Men who consistently leave the toilet seat up secretly want women to get up to go the bathroom in the middle of the night and fall in

Finn1
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:18 pm
Location: kent

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Finn1 » Tue May 22, 2012 8:09 pm

But, but, but we love him! Don't have clue how he does it, but somehow he gets them to do what he wants.

Finn1
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:18 pm
Location: kent

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Finn1 » Tue May 22, 2012 8:11 pm

Victoria is alright, she is just a bit annoying! She went to school with one of my friends and was as irritating at there!!

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Booma » Tue May 22, 2012 8:12 pm

Dallas wrote:saw this on fb today, great post
Good article. I like that English dogtrainer chick much better
lol Victoria Stilwell?


Yup that's the one. I dnt remember names if they aren't attractive males :p
Image Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by TerriHolt » Tue May 22, 2012 8:21 pm

He is actually creating dangerous dogs... he punishes them for showing aggression to make them stop so next time, they WILL NOT give any warning and just attack... He is silencing them, not getting to the root of the problem to help them... aggression usually comes from fear or the guarding resources be it human or food... either or you need to find the cause of aggression, esp if it's fear... creaitng fear to stop the fearful? Sounds stupid doesn't it...
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
Tsir
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 9:09 pm
Location: Hallum, The Netherlands

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tsir » Tue May 22, 2012 8:23 pm

I was always more fond of Shaun Ellis than Cesar Millan. As I have said it earlier, in programs, which people see as a proper example of Cesar Millan, He uses fear and "respect" from being the pack leader. But in the end, dogs don't respect their owners at all.

-----> Which is why I dislike chihuahuas. Maya doesn't know how to ask for water or food and sees a cat (actually a pile of horse shit). How can she possibly understand you?
Know Your Onions, they are tasty

User avatar
JulieSmith
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:35 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by JulieSmith » Tue May 22, 2012 10:31 pm

I prefer Victoria Stilwall as well, I don't find her irritating, but then I have never met her :lol: At least she puts the blame for bad dog behaviour where it belongs with the owners

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Nino » Wed May 23, 2012 12:27 am

I like victoria much more as well.. She targets the people with 90% of her training and only the dogs with 10%.. And her solutions isn't quick fixes..

Caesar's work is like trying to fix a hole in a water pipe with normal tape.. Might work for a while but the problems will come back and the hole might even be bigger then..

I don't deny that I do sometimes enjoy watching Caesar and that I do use a bit of what he uses - but I also don't like a lot of it and I am perfectly aware that he isn't a God, and that he gets bit more times than any other trainer I've heard of
>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
arianwenarie
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 5:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by arianwenarie » Wed May 23, 2012 1:01 am

Nino wrote:I don't deny that I do sometimes enjoy watching Caesar and that I do use a bit of what he uses - but I also don't like a lot of it and I am perfectly aware that he isn't a God, and that he gets bit more times than any other trainer I've heard of
Well, if you poke a dog who then gets annoyed at you, a dog's natural instinct would likely be to bite the offender. lol. Heck, if someone poked me like he does where he does to dogs, shoot...I'd punch them in the face if not bite them myself. :lol:

User avatar
Tatzel
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:17 am
Location: Berlin

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tatzel » Wed May 23, 2012 1:08 am

I've stated this in another thread in this forum before but I'll say it once more because it can't be said enough: his techniques are outdated and set dog training back by around 20 years.

Dogs are no wolves, and even if they were, wolves don't rule over each other with dominance. Any early wolf studies were done in a very unnatural set up; the wolves were put together, they weren't from a single pack (so pack hierachy HAD to be established through force) and they were in a fenced enclosure (i.e. they couldn't wander off if they felt like leaving the pack to go their own ways). This created a breeding ground for problems within the pack, and thus, a lot of agressive-ness and fighting. Usually while a wolf pack does have a hierachy, it's very stagnant throughough the years and usually squabble for higher ranks only happen during the bitch's season. And not even then do the wolves use choke collars on each other or do any ~*alpha rolls*~. Naturally, the leaders of a wolf pack are the parents, and the rest of the pack is their offspring. So they follow their parents for their guidance and lead as all kids would do, until they're old and experienced enough to go their own ways to form their own family.
Saying all this because I think he (or fans) also refered quite a lot to wolves and dominance, but even the guy who made these first wolf studies has long over said he was mistaken, and admits that he's ashamed he ever made up the terms "alpha wolf" and "alpha roll". Nowadays, most scientists don't even use the term "alpha" anymore to describe the leader of a natural wolf pack.

The whole dominance theory is bogus. It's not on a dog's mind 24/7 to rule over his owner, but of course if the owner doesn't take the lead, doesn't actually set rules and boundaries, then the dog will do it, but only because he HAS TO. Usually if there's a problem with the dog, it's a problem caused by the owner. Shape up, give rewards at the right moment and remove rewards for unruly behaviour, and you'll have a great dog in no time! Take the lead and work with your dog! Play games, establish a bond, set the rules!

His methods are one dimensional, he sets the dogs up for failure, and then floods them while 'correcting' them (e-collars, choke leash, kicks to the groin/stomach area or other unplasant things) until the dogs shut down and just 'give up'. neither does this solve the underlying problem (because the dogs don't learn an alternative and better reaction, only learned helpnessless), nor does it actually improve the dogs life.

I'd rather work everyday with my dog and establish a bond of trust and have a happy and cheerful dog than seek a quick solution which turns my dog into an anxious being who's too afraid to do anything because he fears the unpleasant consequences.

The only decent Dog Whisperer episodes are those where he takes the dogs to other, real trainers.

I think what annoys me more than this self-bloated guy are his fans though. You give them a link to a video where he chokes a dog to the point where it collapses from lack of oxygen which is obviously animal abuse and they'll still say "it was nessecairy" or "it's not abuse, he helps that dog!". I don't know if they're blind or dumb. Probably both.

That being said, I don't think you need any certificates to be a decent dog trainer, you can be self taught and ten times better in what you do than any professionals, but this guy? No.

I can see how he got so popular though. His show's entertaining, and it seemingly provides very quick results. We live in a time where everything has to go as quick as possible, may it be related to our daily work, the time we get from place A to place B or the time it takes to fix unruly behaviour. The faster, the better, the less effort, the greater. People seemingly aren't willed to put weeks of efford and training into their dogs to fix the problem, which is just sad.
If you aren't willed to work with your dog, don't get one. Owning an animal is not everyone's right, it's a priviledge which comes with great responsibility!

At least, this is my opinion on this matter! :)
Image

User avatar
Katlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Katlin » Wed May 23, 2012 5:29 am

Agreed Tatzel. He's a bit of a noob and just does everything for a quick fix. Never finding the root of the problem. Dog bites a garden hose? No problem, just punish him every time he does it. It's stupid :P
Polarose Tamaskan
Polardog Outfitters
Owner of Sierra Kaweah RN RI TDI TRN TTDN CRN-MCL @ Polarose

User avatar
skyedream
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:44 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by skyedream » Wed May 23, 2012 9:29 am

I haven't actually watched the dog whisperer since Maya was a pup and I realised his methods don't work! I don't remember him being that bad though, has he gotten worse over time? Does anyone have links to videos of him being cruel? From what Tatzel said I can't believe his show is still allowed to air.
Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by TerriHolt » Wed May 23, 2012 9:37 am

The links i had was to you tube and Nat Geo had them removed for "copy right infringement" loosely translated to "quit it! your making our new rating fetcher upper look bad" :D

Edit: Nvm, someone put it back. If you you tube, there are various videos...



A few occasions the dog is sat doing nothing till he "shhh" ~"tap" then the dog gets angry which, lets face it... someone doing that to you, you'd be pretty p****d too...

Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
Czertice
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:34 pm
Location: Prague
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Czertice » Wed May 23, 2012 9:54 am

I think the good influence Caesar has is in the fact that people get interested in training their dogs, asking for advice, watching other trainers, think about his methods and think about their dogs and their behaviour and what can be done to improve it.

As for using violence - that's for a whole new debate. I think that no violence at all is necessary with spaniels, poodles and such. There's no need to kick your average misbehaving dog. But I am convinced that in some breeds, in some cases and in some situations, violence is acceptable.

I have seen a dog saved from death sentence through a really violent training. I have this case very strongly imprinted in my memory because when I first saw him, the dog was dangerous, attacking everyone and everything. His owner covered in bandages, desperate for any help, having visited many trainers before, noone really helped him, some even refused to try. He trained with us average basic obedience trainees, but his dog had prong collar, choke collar, very short leash and a muzzle at all times. A few times I almost cried watching when they punished or fought with him. I even thought maybe being put down would be a better fate for this young dog.
The last time I saw the dog (few months later), he no longer wore prong collar, could pass other dogs without attacking them (but only under very close supervision on leash, no one was willing to risk their dogs;), his off-leash obedience superb and his expression was happy! Attentive to his owner, whose scars from the dog's attacks have long been healed. I couldnt believe my eyes. I thought it must be some other dog. Especially seeing how markedly improved was his bond with his owner. It was incredible.
I have thought about this many times since, and I decided, upon seeing the result, that it was worth it. The dog was saved from death, and his condition in life improved so much, that I think he could enjoy close to normal life with his owner.
Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by TerriHolt » Wed May 23, 2012 10:12 am

I don't believe violence is the better option... Dogs don't understand pain or know why it happened... Does a child, who has the same concept of pain as a dog does, behave better when beaten? When severely punished? My son has been aggressive towards other kids at school but i would never beat the aggression out of him just like it should never happen to a dog... Dogs and kids are so much alike where training/teaching is concerned... Training like that makes the trainer no better than the people who abuse dogs and it should be just as illegal... and i can't grasp the mentality of people who are able to inflict such pain... I'm having problems wording because... It's unbelievable that someone would allow someone to inflict this on something they love... As hard as it would be, I'd rather see Sam go to rainbow bridge than have him suffer, go through such unbearable pain to break him... the confusion, the pain, the fear, the panic, the... Omg, it's unthinkable... :cry:
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
skyedream
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:44 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by skyedream » Wed May 23, 2012 10:15 am

Eek... now I remember why I don't watch him anymore. I've got a friend I walk with who swears by him, has the Cesar Millan collar and everything. Just watched a video about that and now I'm worried about the poor dog breaking his hyoid bone... Would say something about it but it's much easier to train a dog than to train a human!

Victoria Stillwell all the way! (Even if she is part-human-part-iceburg!)
Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by TerriHolt » Wed May 23, 2012 10:22 am

The collar can cause neck damage... Besides bruising the throat, it can also break the delicate hyoid bone at the base of the throat, right where this collar is designed to exert pressure. I asked my vet if it would be kinder than a Halti...

Edit: Ohhh, you said that :oops: . Did you edit? I swear it wasn't there before :lol:
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
skyedream
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:44 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by skyedream » Wed May 23, 2012 11:02 am

No I didn't edit! You probably just saw the bit about my friend using the collar, stopped reading and went on a self-righteous rampage! (I do it all the time! ;) )
Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by TerriHolt » Wed May 23, 2012 11:21 am

skyedream wrote:No I didn't edit! You probably just saw the bit about my friend using the collar, stopped reading and went on a self-righteous rampage! (I do it all the time! ;) )

That could possibly be it! :lol: Or my mobile is conspiring to make me look like i don't read things properly :D anyhow, it'll teach me for forum-ing whilst sat in traffic :oops:
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
skyedream
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:44 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by skyedream » Wed May 23, 2012 11:40 am

This forum is horribly and dangerously addictive, isn't it? :D
Image

User avatar
JulieSmith
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:35 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by JulieSmith » Wed May 23, 2012 11:48 am

skyedream wrote:This forum is horribly and dangerously addictive, isn't it? :D
Very it should come with a health warning or something there is no such thing as a quick visit :lol:

User avatar
Tatzel
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:17 am
Location: Berlin

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tatzel » Wed May 23, 2012 12:03 pm

skyedream wrote:I haven't actually watched the dog whisperer since Maya was a pup and I realised his methods don't work! I don't remember him being that bad though, has he gotten worse over time? Does anyone have links to videos of him being cruel? From what Tatzel said I can't believe his show is still allowed to air.
I heard that there appearently were a couple of episodes which weren't aired because they were just 'too cruel'

Here's another video of abuse:


Sorry but you DON'T grab dogs by their necks and lift them off ground!
Also I find the case with Shadow to be by far the most cruel one. Poor Shadow!
Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by TerriHolt » Wed May 23, 2012 12:20 pm

mother dogs do do it... mother cats do do it... but only to babies and to transport them... as their body grows, it gets heavier and the extra weight pulls on the skin that is more firm and loses the elasticity and halts the ability to be picked up by the scruff... Neck grabbing is a hostile, aggressive act to a grown dog. You will see dogs grabbing each other by the scruff only in times of aggression and it can trigger dog fights. The mother is not reprimanding her pups in this way, she is simply transporting them when they are very little. Grabbing or lifting a dog by the scruff of the neck has no place in human interaction with them, especially because we would be doing it for correction or punishment, and that is NOT how the mother uses it. Also, it is not good for the neck and spine of a larger dog to be lifted in this way – the rest of the body needs to be supported when lifting a dog...

But what do i know, i'm no expert or trainer...
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
Tsir
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 9:09 pm
Location: Hallum, The Netherlands

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tsir » Wed May 23, 2012 9:02 pm

Tatzel wrote:Sorry but you DON'T grab dogs by their necks and lift them off ground!
Also I find the case with Shadow to be by far the most cruel one. Poor Shadow!
And some days ago he did it again in a dutch show "Van der Vorst sees stars".
"See, now he is in a relaxed state", "see how calm he is?" :evil:
Know Your Onions, they are tasty

User avatar
Tatzel
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:17 am
Location: Berlin

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tatzel » Thu May 24, 2012 9:35 pm

Tsir wrote:
Tatzel wrote:Sorry but you DON'T grab dogs by their necks and lift them off ground!
Also I find the case with Shadow to be by far the most cruel one. Poor Shadow!
And some days ago he did it again in a dutch show "Van der Vorst sees stars".
"See, now he is in a relaxed state", "see how calm he is?" :evil:
I REALLY wished dogs could talk and use human language. They would tell him "fuck you asshole, we're not relaxed and you are hurting us!!" - although I find they DO use body lanaguage which isn't exactly hard to read (compared to animals like rabbits) even to people who never owned dogs! The dogs in the video look unhappy, anxious and anything than happy!
If I ever saw someone doing what Cesar does to dogs, I'd walk up and kick them in the balls, HARD.

Sorry for my foul mouth, but people who mistreat animals and THINK THEY'RE IN THE RIGHT doing a good thing just make me mad. It's even worse if they address their cruel methods as 'a good way of dog training'

It's really sad that after +14.000 years of dog owning mankind generally still doesn't seem to have the slightest clue on how to treat their beloved animals. (saying generally because I guess all of you are great owners, myself and most of my friend and family members included. Also there are really great trainers out there who do the right thing. Unfortunatelly a clueless douche like Millan took the cake and everyone clueless dog owner praises him literally as god of dogs *facepalm*)
Image

User avatar
Tatzel
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:17 am
Location: Berlin

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tatzel » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:34 am

I just wanted to say that "The Dog Whisperer" is finally cancelled. No more new episodes.

Unfortunatelly, Cesar will make a new show called "Leader of the pack" where multiple families from Europe will compete against each other to see which one is most fitting for a shelter animal from Spain. Of course, Cesar will also advertise his training methods by 'coaching' these families. Ugh.

What a damn stupid idea.
Here's a link to the description of the new show; http://www.cesarsway.com/newsandevents/ ... ubmissions

Why can't he just go back to grooming dogs or something :|
Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:35 am

Tatzel wrote:I just wanted to say that "The Dog Whisperer" is finally cancelled. No more new episodes.

Unfortunatelly, Cesar will make a new show called "Leader of the pack" where multiple families from Europe will compete against each other to see which one is most fitting for a shelter animal from Spain. Of course, Cesar will also advertise his training methods by 'coaching' these families. Ugh.

What a damn stupid idea.
Here's a link to the description of the new show; http://www.cesarsway.com/newsandevents/ ... ubmissions

Why can't he just go back to grooming dogs or something :|
Errr.... yay :?

At least shelter animals will find new (hopefully) loving homes... True it's possibly making new generation o millans... Could also subject the dogs to been dumped again if people are just wanting their 5 mins of fame on tv...
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Booma » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:44 am

*Sigh* at least dog whisperer is cancelled. This other show sounds crap so hopefully it won't last long.
Image Image

User avatar
Tatzel
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:17 am
Location: Berlin

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tatzel » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:12 am

TerriHolt wrote: Errr.... yay :?

At least shelter animals will find new (hopefully) loving homes... True it's possibly making new generation o millans... Could also subject the dogs to been dumped again if people are just wanting their 5 mins of fame on tv...

Yeah this is what I fear, there might be people among them who are just out for getting on TV once in their lives.
I find it interessting that they come from Europe and that the dogs are from shelters in Spain - makes me think he tries a different approach of marketing himself in Europe now that he was banned on so many european channels for animal abuse, lol.
And why did he call this series "Leader of the Pack" if this is not about a pack at all but about a single shelter dog finding a new home?

Really all I can see in this is a clever marketing stragedy to sell more of his books and DVDs. What a cheap sellout he is...
Image

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tiantai » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:10 am

Tatzel wrote: Dogs are no wolves, and even if they were, wolves don't rule over each other with dominance. Any early wolf studies were done in a very unnatural set up; the wolves were put together, they weren't from a single pack (so pack hierachy HAD to be established through force) and they were in a fenced enclosure (i.e. they couldn't wander off if they felt like leaving the pack to go their own ways). This created a breeding ground for problems within the pack, and thus, a lot of agressive-ness and fighting. Usually while a wolf pack does have a hierachy, it's very stagnant throughough the years and usually squabble for higher ranks only happen during the bitch's season. And not even then do the wolves use choke collars on each other or do any ~*alpha rolls*~. Naturally, the leaders of a wolf pack are the parents, and the rest of the pack is their offspring. So they follow their parents for their guidance and lead as all kids would do, until they're old and experienced enough to go their own ways to form their own family.
Not related to topic but I believe the same thing also happened with coywolves, coydingos, jackayotes, coy-dogs, jackadingoes, jackolves, wolf-dingoes, wolf-dogs, and any other ridiculous hybrid done in Germany bred as part of a study project to determine whether all of these animals were the same species or unrelated. Many had aggressive problems likely due to the artificial conditions which may also explain why the coy-dogs developed the most problems after generations (not because of dominance but likely as a result of inbreeding and poor environment). All of these experiments got people nowhere as to how the wild canines' world operates (considering that they interbred them to begin with) other than that some are more closely related than others, they all share a common ancestry, and that the dog, dingo, and wolf are the same species while the coyote and jackal are more different and may split apart even further.
Image

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tiantai » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:28 am

And yes I do believe that Cesar IS over his head. Although I am a fan of his (to some level) and do believe that he has good intentions such as trying to give the dogs another chance of life, trying to destroy the Pit Bull stereotype, I don't support some of the things I've seen him do in television such as using a shock collar to discourage dogs from approaching snakes (I believe some other methods could have been done to teach a dog not to approach the reptiles) nor do I agree with chalking dominance (on certain cases) when many times the dogs clearly seems insecured out of other things unrelated to leadership. Millan has outraged me on several episodes including the one where he forced a dog to stay down in front of a caged rabbit just to try and make it learn not to attack them but I think he was more like instilling "fear of punishments" on the dog. Some dogs don't get along with certain animals much like how some wolves may get along well with other passing strange wolves (though usually they would just avoid a strange pack) and sometimes with coyotes (may explain why coywolves exist) while most would rather kill the latter to eliminate competition on prey and to try and fix THOSE natural behaviours is wrong. And for Millan to try and make the dog "submissive" towards those animals, all he's really doing is teaching the dog to pretend to be nice with such animals and then play rough when owner is not around. And the way I've seen him "picking up" certain "aggressive" small dogs and making them "tired out" in the air, THAT is totally off! Sorry, but THAT is VERY WRONG! This is once again instilling fear than teaching leadership. Don't get me wrong, I did learn a lot from him, but there's those times when I think he should be replaced with another expert for that episode.
Image

User avatar
Megaen
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:31 am
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Megaen » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:15 pm

There's a big discussion about Cesar on a Shiba forum I'm a member of (I believe you can see this post without signing up)

http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/disc ... -millan/p1

User avatar
Dallas
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 10:19 pm
Location: Austria

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Dallas » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:19 pm

thanks for posting this
really interesting read :)
Men who consistently leave the toilet seat up secretly want women to get up to go the bathroom in the middle of the night and fall in

Karen
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:23 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Karen » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:28 pm

Soooo glad more people have issues with that guy! I get so nervous of all the worshipping you see all the time

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tiantai » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:48 pm

I'm still sad actually, although I hated many of the things Millan did, SOME of his actions like trying to get the Pitbull ban lifted in my province and in many States I truly respect him on that part.
btw
South Park made a parody on him in one episode :lol:
Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by TerriHolt » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:04 pm

Just a lil something i fond on Victoria Stilwell's fb page...
Victoria Stilwell wrote: This is long but worth the read. Please share this with all your dog loving friends. It's very important now that dominance training methods become a thing of the past. The discussion needs to be over. It doesn't matter what breed or mix of breeds you have, what 'drive' your dog has, or what you are teaching your dog to do or not do. Positive training methods are a lot more effective in the short AND long term, especially for dogs with aggression issues or dogs with really high drive. Working, sporting, protection, military and police dogs can be trained without the use of force. There are many wonderful trainers who teach dogs for the military and the police force who only use positive methods - producing much safer and more predictable behavior, especially in highly charged situations. Despite what a few people say, I do not fight this battle for fame or for money - that does not concern me - I have a moral duty as a trainer to raise awareness and be a voice for humane teaching methods. I came up with the idea for It's Me or the Dog eight years ago and its success speaks for the public need for humane methods. Many of the 'whispering' techniques that audiences have been subjected to over the years are and continue to be inhumane and dangerous. Enough is enough. Embrace modern day behavioral science and use methods that encourage your dog to learn, change your dog's negative behavior for good and develop a relationship with your dog based on trust and cooperation, not punishment, dominance and suppression.
http://www.examiner.com/article/dog-whi ... st-century
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
Taz
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: UK

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Taz » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:00 pm

"Don't underestimate me.
I know more than I say.
Think more than I speak.
And notice more than you realize".
"you are free to choose
But you are not free
From the consequence of
Your choice "

User avatar
Katlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Katlin » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:20 pm

Great article Taz!! Here's what I did with Snoopy showing Food Aggression. Snoopy is a Yorkie, a rat dog (literally bred to hunt and kill rats), with these little guys they do not bite and release, they bite and rip, shaking their head to the side to break the rat's neck and kill it.

It took several days to get this right, and several weeks to not show any more signs of aggression.

I first went up to his empty food bowl and put a treat in it, Snoopy ate the treat. I then went to pick up the bowl, Snoopy snarled. So I pull back my hand and try again. Again she snarls and this time snaps. I wait there...several more attempts reveal less threatening results until finally he lets me touch the bowl. I rewarded him lavishly. I then pick up the bowl, place a treat in it, and put it back. Several more times this happens, pick up the bowl, putting a treat in it, and replacing it. Snoopy has figured out that when I take the bowl, something awesome will happen. So now I fill his bowl with food, and feed him pieces from it with the bowl still on my lap. This is my bowl, we can share it but you can not have it for yourself. Finally he understands it! Snoopy will now let you touch him all over, grab his nose, touch his teeth, etc whilst eating out of the bowl. We also take it away halfway through the meal. He's not a fan of this, but will sit and wait for us to bring it back.

Sorry for my rambles, but I totally think that threatening a dog will only get you bitten.
Polarose Tamaskan
Polardog Outfitters
Owner of Sierra Kaweah RN RI TDI TRN TTDN CRN-MCL @ Polarose

User avatar
Cornelia1986
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:00 am
Location: 9500 Villach

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Cornelia1986 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:49 pm

Dog/Horsewhisperer -> the language of animals is a very quiet one! In no wolfpack the leader shouts "schhhhhh"
They speak trough body language - they do not grab each others neck and do not kick other pack members in the abdomen (only if they are really fighting)
The so called Cesare-Millans-Way is a way right into a dead end and in the wrong direction. As someone just said before - nobody kicks his kids (hopefully) in the abdomen if they do something wrong! The best way - even if it takes longer - is to offer the dog alternatives and praise him for correct behavior. There is a famous dog trainer in Germany who works ONLY with positive reinforcement. The 'cruelest' thing he uses is a spray can filled with water, no e-or choke collars. His name is Martin Rütter and me and all my friends adore him. He wrote severel books which help dog owners to understand their dogs and their body language. I don't know if some books were translated into english...

(Sorry btw, my english is not the best) ;)
There once was a wolf-
a wolf lonlier than the mountains

User avatar
Tatzel
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:17 am
Location: Berlin

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tatzel » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:27 am

Cornelia1986 wrote:There is a famous dog trainer in Germany who works ONLY with positive reinforcement. The 'cruelest' thing he uses is a spray can filled with water, no e-or choke collars. His name is Martin Rütter and me and all my friends adore him. He wrote severel books which help dog owners to understand their dogs and their body language. I don't know if some books were translated into english...
Martin Rütter seems legit, I watched a few things of him and they seemed decent.
What I like more about him I guess though is his humor, watched one of his shows,, I like how he points out every now and then how irrational people are when it comes to their dogs; the dogs get double standarts and is allowed to do things we would never allow people around us to do haha.
Image

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tiantai » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:17 am

While I can read German, I am still not very confident in that language and I don't know if there are any English versions of his books either. I'd like to learn a thing or two from this person but might have to rely heavily on my German-English dictionary :lol:
Image

User avatar
Mylingen
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 2:08 pm
Location: West Midlands, UK

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Mylingen » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:03 pm

You go Alan!

Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:15 pm

Alan Titchmarsh has, mostly, bored me (not my sort of tv program :oops: )... But i seriously wish i watched that one and have a new found respect for the man :D
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
Tatzel
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:17 am
Location: Berlin

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tatzel » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:13 am

I like how Cesar was avoiding a lot of the questions and/or tried to stray away from the main point(s)
Image

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Tiantai » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:21 am

The parrot and the cat were the lamest excuses I've heard! None of that justifies the punching and forceful movements that the Millan does considering that parrots and cats are NOT humans and they do not do what he does!
Image

User avatar
arianwenarie
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 5:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by arianwenarie » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:36 am

Since this seems an appropriate place to post this article that I stumbled upon on FB...here ya go. Very good read, IMHO. ;)

http://www.examiner.com/article/dog-whi ... st-century

User avatar
Katlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Re: The Dog Whisperer Should Just Shut Up

Post by Katlin » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:41 am

Good article, this quote is what got me :lol: because the writer is sooo right!
What is always shocking to me is that Millan gets bitten a lot. Regardless of methods, which can be argued until people are blue in the face, if Millan knew how to read the visual signals of canine body language he would not be bitten so frequently. Because pathological aggression is rare, a dog has usually been provoked in some fashion whenever he or she bites—typically inadvertently—and the most common response when this happens is, “I did not see that coming.”
Polarose Tamaskan
Polardog Outfitters
Owner of Sierra Kaweah RN RI TDI TRN TTDN CRN-MCL @ Polarose

Post Reply