Teaching, not training

All topics pertaining to agility, obedience, sled racing, search & rescue, therapy training, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Emielle
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Teaching, not training

Post by Emielle » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:53 pm

I'm completely astounded. This is by far the most amazing page of a website I have encountered ever. It's a collection of articles about Charles P. Eisenmann, and his GSDs. They were amazingly intelligent, and he could ask them to perform tasks, locate objects, and they could understand four languages. Thing is, they weren't trained, they were taught. He didn't give hand signals or one-word commands, he talked to his dogs. I can't explain it very well, you'll need to read all of the articles, but you'll certainly be amazed. Here's an extract from the page;
It comes as a small shock to realize a dog is thinking along with the rest of the humans in a room. Eisenmann asked London what was used to open the door. The dog moved over and reached up and twisted the knob with his teeth. ‘No, what do we open it with if it is locked?’ he asked.
The dog walked around the kitchen, found the keys on the sink, picked them up, and gave them to Mr. Eisenmann. As the interview continued, the dogs lay quietly on the floor, eyes closed. Eisenmann was explaining that it was unfair to the dogs to ask them to do things they knew could cause them harm.

He gave for an example asking London to take the coffee pot off the stove if it were hot. The dog would immediately know if it were hot and the awkwardness of trying to pick it up with his teeth. ‘Are these dogs listening to what we are saying?’ I asked suddenly. ‘Certainly, ‘said Eisenmann. ‘London,’ he called. The dog got up and came over. ‘What were we talking about?’ he asked. London put his face on my knee. ‘No, before that,’ London looked up at the stove and stood up on his hind legs and picked up the coffee pot with his teeth...
http://www.shilohshepherds.info/whatIsA ... m#Edmunton
I'm on the hunt for his books now, and won't stop until I find them! Speaking of, does anyone have a copy of any of them? That'd be amazing luck. I'm extremely interested in this though, as it sounds actually engaging for the dog and owner. It's not forcing the dog to do something because it's scared, or hoping it'll do it for treats. It's communication. Not sure if it could be applied to all breeds of dog though, because GSDs as we all know were crossed with wolves back in the day, which are extremely intelligent. Many dog breeds are similarly intelligent, but I'm not sure. -shrug- One way to find out!

Still,

My mind.
Is.
Blown.
Email: emielleface@gmail.com
Skype: r.andom

User avatar
HiTenshi16
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 4802
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: Princeton, TX US
Contact:

Re: Teaching, not training

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:09 pm

When you do find his books, be sure to tell because this all is very interesting. I wish I could learn how to teach my dogs instead of train.
Image

User avatar
Emielle
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Teaching, not training

Post by Emielle » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:15 pm

I certainly will. I plan to scan them and convert them into PDFs if I can, so that I have copies that will always be available. I've contacted someone who seems to sell his books, and claim they're looking for copies as everything is out of stock. I'll let you guys know if anything happens. And yeah, my family has always used the dominance sort of training, as in, 'Do this because I say so, not because you want to." I recently converted to clicker training, but that makes my dog too focused on food and not me. So this is the perfect sort of learning, imo.
Email: emielleface@gmail.com
Skype: r.andom

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: Teaching, not training

Post by blufawn » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:35 pm

Don't believe it for a second, I talk to my dogs all the time and they don't listen to me, even when I say please.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

User avatar
JulieSmith
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:35 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Teaching, not training

Post by JulieSmith » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:46 pm

blufawn wrote:Don't believe it for a second, I talk to my dogs all the time and they don't listen to me, even when I say please.
LOL, I also talk to my dog, but she still does her own thing as well, though I sometimes think she does understand me, just decides to ignore me.

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: Teaching, not training

Post by Nino » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:51 pm

JulieSmith wrote:
blufawn wrote:Don't believe it for a second, I talk to my dogs all the time and they don't listen to me, even when I say please.
LOL, I also talk to my dog, but she still does her own thing as well, though I sometimes think she does understand me, just decides to ignore me.
I know my dog sometimes ignore me, cause I can see that his ears twitch when he hears me but then intentionally looks the other way like "I didn't hear you", and other times I can see him try to understand what I am saying to him.. like really try, but he doesn't ..

so .. yeah.. I don't really believe that they understand us the way this implies
>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
Emielle
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Teaching, not training

Post by Emielle » Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:03 pm

I think they can, actually, it's just that we aren't doing it right. xD For example, a child picks up a language by listening over time. The more they hear the more they learn. Now, I don't know how Eisenmann taught his dogs, but I know that my terrier cross has picked up some words and phrases over the years 'by accident'. My mum would ask him, "Where's Ciara?" [me] and he'd race around the house until he found me, then race back to my mum all proud of himself. No-one taught him this, he just picked it up. Also, he knows, "Go away!" from grumpy family members over time. You can say it as happily as you like, and he'll still slink off to his bed.

I dunno, I want to read the books if I can before I say it's not possible. I'd love it to be achievable.
Email: emielleface@gmail.com
Skype: r.andom

User avatar
malamutemick
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Devon U.K.

Re: Teaching, not training

Post by malamutemick » Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:13 pm

blufawn wrote:Don't believe it for a second, I talk to my dogs all the time and they don't listen to me, even when I say please.
Glad You said That Jenny.Not Wanting To Sound Like An Old Skeptic, As Much As I Like To Think My Dogs (past & present) Understand What I Say To Them I Think It Is Just Commands & Tone Of Voice They Really Understand :lol:

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: Teaching, not training

Post by Nino » Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:23 pm

Emielle wrote:I think they can, actually, it's just that we aren't doing it right. xD For example, a child picks up a language by listening over time. The more they hear the more they learn. Now, I don't know how Eisenmann taught his dogs, but I know that my terrier cross has picked up some words and phrases over the years 'by accident'. My mum would ask him, "Where's Ciara?" [me] and he'd race around the house until he found me, then race back to my mum all proud of himself. No-one taught him this, he just picked it up. Also, he knows, "Go away!" from grumpy family members over time. You can say it as happily as you like, and he'll still slink off to his bed.

I dunno, I want to read the books if I can before I say it's not possible. I'd love it to be achievable.
I think thats all a question of training without you are aware of it. Dogs are really focused on body language, much more than most people are aware, and when saying some stuff while doing something with your body which you are not aware of, then the dog might put those two things together.


I'm not saying you are entirely wrong, but I am really skeptic about this!
>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
Emielle
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Teaching, not training

Post by Emielle » Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:32 pm

I know what you mean, Nino. Still, these dogs are extremely well documented, and were reported hundreds of times. I think it can't just be a question of training, and it's not a fluke. This guy had different generations all acting the same way.

Have to see the books, then I'll decide. ^-^
Email: emielleface@gmail.com
Skype: r.andom

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: Teaching, not training

Post by blufawn » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:23 pm

I do believe dogs can understand human words and they can have a large amount of words they understand.
Our bordie collie is very intelligent and can understand a variety of words and can tell all his toys apart, frisbee, raggy, ball etc and if you ask him to go and get one, he will always bring back the correct toy. But if I ask him to go and get my phone or my slippers he looks at me daft, despite knowing what fetch means and looking as though he really wants to help, he doesnt know what my phone is, I havent taught/trained him for that item or word
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

User avatar
Misaya
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1731
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 3:31 pm
Location: Central Scotland

Re: Teaching, not training

Post by Misaya » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:06 pm

I have seen these articles on the internet before too and they are very interesting. Be sure and let us know if you manage to track down any of the books.

I think dogs do understand some of the things you say to them. Ayasca recognises various words (other than commands - not that he pays much attention to those :roll: ) and his head will shoot round towards you, either that or he puts his head to the side as if he's listening intently. Mischa lives in a world of her own, and just wags her tail no matter what you say to her :)
- Fiona -

The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. - Ambrose Bierce

Post Reply