Annual vaccinations

[skyedream]

Just got a postcard from my vet today letting me know Maya's due her annual vaccinations. I'm switching her over to a RMB diet next week when her last bag of dog food is finished and it got me thinking about all of the unnecessary chemicals being pumped into my dogs body. I know that in the US vaccination is recommended only once every 3 years and even that may be unnecessary. I don't get annual boosters so why should she? So my plan is to go to my vet next week armed with as much information as possible and let him know that I'm only going to have Maya vaccinated once every three years. So far I know very little so does anyone have any advice/opinions/experience?

[Katlin]

Not 100% about USA vaccines but here's canada. I currently work at a vet clinic so this is according the the Alberta Vet Association and the American Animal Hospital Association (there is no Canadian one).

Rabies - This vaccines can vary from the initial one year to 30 months. This is not an optional vaccine and aggressive / oddly behaving dogs with no ID can be euth'd by the city pound with no proof of rabies. There is discussion that this vaccines can last up to 7 years but there isn't SOLID proof recognized by AAHA therefore we do not stand by it. Rabies titres can also be done. The blood tests is costly but can tell you what their antibody level is, 0.5 is minimum.

Distemper (DA2PPV or DAPPV) - Also a 30 month vaccine and another one of those non-optionals. Distemper can easily kill, I will never not have this vaccines for my dogs.

Bordatella (Kennel cough) - You have to have this in canada to go to groomers, daycares, ect. It's a lifestyle vaccines. It lasts 10 - 12 months.

Lepto - Also a lifestyle vaccine, if you are near raccoons, deer, or anywhere that has ticks this is a good idea, lepto easily kills.

Giardia (bever fever) no longer given in Canada because it GAVE the puppy giardia half the time.

That's pretty much it, everything is a combo vaccine (DA2PPV includes a LOT!). I really hate that argument "well my dog lived to 15 on no vaccines", well I've seen dogs that are 17-18 on a regular basis. Vaccines are recommended by your vet for a reason.

[skyedream]

The RSPCA website says that dogs should regularly be vaccinated against:-
Canine parvovirus
Canine distemper virus
Leptospirosis
Infectious canine hepatitis.

Parvovirus vaccination probably lasts for life if good immunity is ever achieved. In most dogs, a single injection of a modified live parvovirus vaccine given after twelve weeks of age ( new high titer vaccines) or sixteen weeks of age (older vaccines) will confer immunity. The one year booster shot should strongly bolster this and if a puppy didn't respond properly to the puppy vaccinations for some reason (like having a heavy parasite load or another viral illness) the one year vaccination should provide good immunity.

Source - http://www.vetinfo.com/dparvo.html

The canine distemper vaccination provides immunity for 8 to 10 years and hence if the antibody titer levels are high, the dog has the ability to resist infection and doesn’t need a shot.

Source - http://www.vetinfo.com/canine-distemper ... edule.html

It looks like the leptospirosis vaccination is only effective for up to a year but most vets don't offer this vaccine if there is little incidence of the disease in your area as this is the part of the vaccine that is most likely to cause a reaction.

I can't find any information about the effectiveness of the hepatitis vaccine right now. But I'll look into it.

From what I can see the recommendation is to get the normal puppy vaccines then the one year booster then after that begin the 3 year boosters. I certainly would never stop vaccinating my dog completely. That's just stupidity and I believe my pet insurance would be null and void if I ever did that.

[Katlin]

Sorry, DA2PPV = Distemper, Adenovirus type 2 (Hepatitis), Parainfluenza, and Parvo.

Your insurance would want to see some sort of immunity, if you don't want to vaccinate you can do titres but....

Vaccine cost - $15-30
Titre cost - $250-320

[skyedream]

So how often do you vaccinate in Canada?

[Katlin]

Every year, because we do Distemper one year, rabies the next, then distemper, and the cycle repeats.

[Hawthorne]

There is ongoing research about the duration of the effectiveness of the rabies vaccine. I think anyone who intends to breed their dog should consider this very closely. Over-vaccinating could be harmful as well:

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

I think that as far as vaccines go--many breeders do titers on their dogs rather than vaccinate "according to schedule." Here in the US, a puppy receives his initial round of rabies vaccinations, a booster the following year, followed by a booster three years later. So every other year is not the protocol for the US. But I believe it will vary from vet to vet. You should speak with your vet about it. Some may not be as "up to date" than others.

[arianwenarie]

There is ongoing research about the duration of the effectiveness of the rabies vaccine. I think anyone who intends to breed their dog should consider this very closely. Over-vaccinating could be harmful as well:

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

I think that as far as vaccines go--many breeders do titers on their dogs rather than vaccinate "according to schedule." Here in the US, a puppy receives his initial round of rabies vaccinations, a booster the following year, followed by a booster three years later. So every other year is not the protocol for the US. But I believe it will vary from vet to vet. You should speak with your vet about it. Some may not be as "up to date" than others.

I heard blood titers cost quite a bit, but what do titers do? Are they supposed to replace required vaccines? I am wondering how titers might work into the vaccines required by law (i.e. rabies). I do know there are a vets out there that will omit certain vaccines for dogs due to age or other health complication.

What do folks think of the Canine Flu vaccine, H3N8? I haven't gotten it for my dog and my vet didn't recommend it...only because my dog is young(er) and healthy and that the vaccine is relatively new.

[Katlin]

I heard blood titers cost quite a bit, but what do titers do? Are they supposed to replace required vaccines? I am wondering how titers might work into the vaccines required by law (i.e. rabies). I do know there are a vets out there that will omit certain vaccines for dogs due to age or other health complication.

Yes they cost a small fortune. They are used to test the dog's immunity, i.e: the antibodies in the blood. It's kinda used as a guideline to see how often to vaccinate NOT to replace vaccines. For example the minmum requirement of antibodies for rabies is 0.5, I'm currently sitting at 7.5 so I'm wayyyyy above what's required. If I'm ever bitten I will have to get another rabies shot as a precaution, but I will never end up with rabies because my immunity is so high. The same works for dogs. I'm not a fan of titres because it puts a lot at risk, but some animals can't get vaccines and titres are the only way they can travel.

[Hawthorne]

The flu vaccine is required in our area if a dog is to need a stay in the vet's office--otherwise they have to be in the quarantine area. ( = $$)
But this is because there was a canine flu outbreak in our area.

I think checking titers is a good way to approach vaccinations. I think there's a lot in question about over-vaccinating our pets--especially breeding pets--and what harm it can do to them. Not doing a vaccine based in a titer result, I feel, is a responsible way to approach a vaccine schedule. The immunity is either sufficient (based on a titer), or it's not--in which case you would re-vaccinate. It's a personal choice, certainly. But if there was any doubt in your mind that over vaccinating could do much more harm than good, would you do it? If there was scientific evidence that even says there are uncertainties about over-vaccinating--wouldn't you think twice? Forget the cost of titers. I'm talking about dog health

I provided the link so folks can do their own research. I don't want to get preachy here.

[arianwenarie]

I am enjoying all the info on titers. lol. But here's a very mind-boggling question: if you're a paranoid owner (like me) and would worry constantly about when the anti-bodies fall below the minimum, then when would you make the decision to re-vaccinate and/or "know" when to re-vaccinate so that your dog can rebuild immunity?

Very stupidly worded question, my apologies.

[Hawthorne]

I think I know what you mean. I don't know for certain, but I bet immunity doesn't fall off like the face of a cliff--but rather like a curve. Based on the antibody the dog has you know how close he is to falling below the necessary immunity. I'm sure there's a range that titer numbers fall between and your vet can talk to you about it. I honestly haven't delved too deeply into this issue--but I'd really like to as we'll be coming around for our dogs to receive a third round of rabies shots. My mentor does titers with her breeding dogs--and she's a vet tech. Probably a huge advantage financially LOL

[arianwenarie]

Yay! At least one person understood my very cryptic question. lol. I didn't think that there'd be a range where a vet would recommend a vaccination to boost immunity...good point.

Honestly, I can't afford a titer, but I do try to get my dog vaccinated with the longest lasting vaccines available. I think I also saw a boarding kennel owner that did some research on her own time (talked to lots of vets, specialists, breeders, etc) and found that vaccines from certain strains are better for a dog. I will try to dig up which kennel that was and post that info here.

[Hawthorne]

Oh boy, like generic vs. brand name? That would be upsetting.

It wouldn't surprise me as generic vitamins (for people) are not the same as name brand. The d- and l- forms of vitamins are absorbed differently by the human body. More expensive vitamins contain the form of the chemical which is actually absorbed by your body, rather than passed though. (see, Organic Chemistry *was* good for something!)

[arianwenarie]

Oh boy, like generic vs. brand name? That would be upsetting.

It wouldn't surprise me as generic vitamins (for people) are not the same as name brand. The d- and l- forms of vitamins are absorbed differently by the human body. More expensive vitamins contain the form of the chemical which is actually absorbed by your body, rather than passed though. (see, Organic Chemistry *was* good for something!)

No, not quite. Here's a copy-pasta from her website:
Canine rabies – 3 years
Canine distemper (Onderstepoort strain) – 5 years
Canine distemper (Rockborn strain) – 7 years
Canine parvovirus – 7 years
Bordatella(dogs) -We do not require bordatella due to the fact that “kennel cough is not a vaccine preventable disease because of the complex factors associated with this disease” Dr Ronald Schultz “Why this vaccination is worthless”
Canine Flu Vaccination- We do not EVER recommend this vaccination!

I doubt I'll be getting the bordatella vaccine for my dog when she's due for her annuals again....I do know that I'll be asking my vet for the labels on the bottles so that I know which ones they used.

I also found some good info from a link on her website: http://www.caninecare.org/ and here: http://www.dogaware.com/health/vaccinations.html

[Katlin]

I doubt I'll be getting the bordatella vaccine for my dog when she's due for her annuals again....I do know that I'll be asking my vet for the labels on the bottles so that I know which ones they used.

In Canada you'd be SOL getting into any daycare, grooming, or boarding center....I've never seen a dog WITH the vaccine get KC, and I've seen 2 cases of owners thinking it's worthless and ended up bringing their dogs in 3-5 years later seriously regretting that decision after a trip to the dog park (both dogs caught it at an offleash park).

That said, it's an owner's decision

[arianwenarie]

I doubt I'll be getting the bordatella vaccine for my dog when she's due for her annuals again....I do know that I'll be asking my vet for the labels on the bottles so that I know which ones they used.

In Canada you'd be SOL getting into any daycare, grooming, or boarding center....I've never seen a dog WITH the vaccine get KC, and I've seen 2 cases of owners thinking it's worthless and ended up bringing their dogs in 3-5 years later seriously regretting that decision after a trip to the dog park (both dogs caught it at an offleash park).

That said, it's an owner's decision

Haha. It's a good thing my dog stays at home 99% of the time...if anything, we just go out on short walks in the neighborhood. I never bring her to daycare (for personal reasons), I don't see why I'd need to bring her in for grooming as I'll never shave my lab (lol) and boarding...I don't have money to go on vacation. XD Dog parks....yea, about that (see "daycare").

If anything, I think I'll consider the intranasal one as I did read it's "less harmful"...? o_O My vet did ask if I'll be boarding my dog anytime soon the last time we were in for a visit. He didn't recommend it until 7 days prior to boarding.

[Hawthorne]

I've already run into a couple of dog parks who require kennel cough vaccination in addition to a passing stool sample within the past 11 days. Nonetheless, we never visited these dog parks, or any dog parks for that matter. We do our own grooming, and I would rather hire someone to come and stay at my house to look after my dogs rather than board all four ($$$!). The only trouble we've run into with that is taking Darwin to Doggie Day Care when Freyja was in heat last. When we couldn't be home with them, he went to doggie day care. But he had his kennel cough (nasal vaccine).

Katelin--do you think proof of immunity wouldn't be enough for these facilities--that is--if you checked a titer and it was really high (so no need to re-vaccinate)?

[Katlin]

I doubt I'll be getting the bordatella vaccine for my dog when she's due for her annuals again....I do know that I'll be asking my vet for the labels on the bottles so that I know which ones they used.

In Canada you'd be SOL getting into any daycare, grooming, or boarding center....I've never seen a dog WITH the vaccine get KC, and I've seen 2 cases of owners thinking it's worthless and ended up bringing their dogs in 3-5 years later seriously regretting that decision after a trip to the dog park (both dogs caught it at an offleash park).

That said, it's an owner's decision

Haha. It's a good thing my dog stays at home 99% of the time...if anything, we just go out on short walks in the neighborhood. I never bring her to daycare (for personal reasons), I don't see why I'd need to bring her in for grooming as I'll never shave my lab (lol) and boarding...I don't have money to go on vacation. XD Dog parks....yea, about that (see "daycare").

If anything, I think I'll consider the intranasal one as I did read it's "less harmful"...? o_O My vet did ask if I'll be boarding my dog anytime soon the last time we were in for a visit. He didn't recommend it until 7 days prior to boarding.

Haha it's "less harmful" (It's not harmful at all) Because it hardly, works, half of it ends up on the floor lol!

Well then whatever works for you sounds like you've got it figured out

I

Katelin--do you think proof of immunity wouldn't be enough for these facilities--that is--if you checked a titer and it was really high (so no need to re-vaccinate)?

Depends on the facility and the vaccine. Rabies, probably it'd be ok, distemper....not really sure on that one, and I've never seen a kenel cough one done. Remember that these are VERY expensive tests....

If I PERSONALLY owned a facility I wouldn't allow anything but a distemper titer, rabies is just too much of a risk IMHO.

[skyedream]

Well then whatever works for you sounds like you've got it figured out

Actually, sounds like you've got it all figured out...

If I PERSONALLY owned a facility I wouldn't allow anything but a distemper titer, rabies is just too much of a risk IMHO.

But the titer shows the level of immunity, I don't understand what the problem would be? If the level of immunity is high then the dog won't contract the disease or at the very least is less likely to. So many dogs have been harmed by over-vaccination, I think it is ridiculous that titers should cost so much money when they could potentially save dogs lives.

[Rahne]

In the Netherlands more and more dogs are getting titers. Prices depend on the vet but some do it quite cheap here.. a few months back a vet organized a special titer day and everyone could get their dog done for €35 (and if necessary, the vaccines from €17 to €23)

[Katlin]

Well then whatever works for you sounds like you've got it figured out

Actually, sounds like you've got it all figured out...

:/ I wasn't trying to be rude or sarcastic....

If I PERSONALLY owned a facility I wouldn't allow anything but a distemper titer, rabies is just too much of a risk IMHO.

But the titer shows the level of immunity, I don't understand what the problem would be? If the level of immunity is high then the dog won't contract the disease or at the very least is less likely to. So many dogs have been harmed by over-vaccination, I think it is ridiculous that titers should cost so much money when they could potentially save dogs lives.

They cost a lot here because people don't want them being done, yes it shows immunity but that doesn't really mean anything if a dog were bitten. You may have a high immunity to tetanus but you'd still have to go to the hospital, take antibiotics, and get a tetanus booster if you stepped on a rusty nail. I don't want to turn this into an argument, I was just giving you the situation I go by in with my own opinions. I didn't want it to be taken personally...

In the Netherlands more and more dogs are getting titers. Prices depend on the vet but some do it quite cheap here.. a few months back a vet organized a special titer day and everyone could get their dog done for €35 (and if necessary, the vaccines from €17 to €23)

WOW!! That's crazy cheap!

[Hawthorne]

I have yet to ask my vet what the costs would be for titers. I'm happy to share when I find out...
Anyone else?

haha "Titer Day" I love it!

[skyedream]

It's alright Katlin. I understand you were just trying to get your opinion across, like the rest of us.

I found this link to be quite good:-

http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/vaccina ... titers.htm

Seems like titers aren't really all that useful.

[Hawthorne]

It's alright Katlin. I understand you were just trying to get your opinion across, like the rest of us.

I found this link to be quite good:-

http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/vaccina ... titers.htm

Seems like titers aren't really all that useful.

Hey, that's very interesting. Thanks for sharing. The overall point is still there, though: we're over vaccinating our pets (probably) and can cause chronic health issues by doing so. I'm going to forward this to my mentor who is both a dog breeder and vet tech
cheers!

[TeresaC]

I recently read an article (which I can't find now) that the US Veterinary School curriculum is being changed to coach pet owners about the use of titers and caution about over vaccinating. I was thrilled to see that the US vet schools have all agreed to this change in curriculum. I'm not sure when it goes into effect, but there was enough information for them to change!!

I do know that the kennels, parks and training facilities around here will take a titers in place of a vaccination record. The only one that is required is the rabies vacciine every three years by law.

[Ausbird]

I've been doing a lot of my own investigating the past couple days to satisfy my own curiosity. There appears to be strong evidence from several studies and updated vet organization guidelines that a 3-year interval core vaccination schedule is safe. I found these updated guidelines from AAHA to be a very clean summary of what I'd been encountering in the literature:

http://www.todaysveterinarypractice.com ... s_Ford.pdf

I was skeptical about the use of titers initially, but it appears (for core vaccines) they're a fair demonstration of immunity when used in the positive. I'm still a little fuzzy about where the minimum antibody concentrations for positive immunity come from -- perhaps vaccine manufacturer studies? As discussed above they become less useful when used as a demonstration of lack of immunity due to the existence of memory B cells. Here's a study that compared the accuracy of titer assays you'd find at a vet versus ones performed under more strict conditions in a lab, and found that the former had acceptable accuracy. This was a concern of mine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?ter ... ns+in+dogs

While relaxing the vaccine intervals doesn't seem to be causing harm, I'm skeptical that adverse events and overvaccination in general are a serious threat to the health of normal dogs that aren't already immunocompromised in some way. There's a few already rare disorders that have shown some correlation in the case of distemper vaccine in particular, but the evidence is very spotty and in some cases unable to be replicated in more current studies.

[TerriHolt]

I actually asked my vet about the annual vaccines been too much and she said that they only vaccinate for Leptospirosis (i think it's that one, disease spread by rats and rodents) annually and the rest is 3 yearly.

[Katlin]

Lepto and Bordetella are both yearly, the rest should be every 2-3 years depending on the vaccine brand.

[Ausbird]

Yeah, in these guidelines lepto and bordetella are considered "non-core" but have a recommended interval of one year when given.

[IliasD]

I found this very interesting article on vaccination..
http://comportements-chien.blogspot.fr/ ... tique.html French
http://www.thenaturalcarnivore.com/heal ... tions.html English

So.. vaccinating would weaken the breed?
Since this is a 'starting' breed.. wouldn't it be better to calm down on vaccinations, especially for the ones who will procreate?
I think this question should be thought about very seriously...

A fundamental dilemma is that vaccination in effect leads to weakening of the gene pool, and thus the overall health of a given population.

First, remembering that booster vaccines are unnecessary, we can stop all vaccination after one year of age for virtually all diseases. (cf. below; Rabies is required by law so we need to work to change the laws so that they are in accordance with the fact rather than fear.)

[Katlin]

Meh. I vaccinate my dogs every three years for rabies and distemper, just because I've worked in clinics and have seen what distemper can do to dogs and puppies. That's me personally though.