parental hip score probability chart

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AngieH
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parental hip score probability chart

Post by AngieH » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:45 pm

I have no interest in becoming a breeder. But I am fascinated by the art and science of breeding and training dogs. It factors heavily in my current writing project. I have been studying genetics, visiting kennels, talking to breeders and working with vets, handlers and trainers as part of my novel research. Today I stumbled upon something that I would like to share with you because, in my naiveté, I think it might be important:

OK ~ I know the TDR now uses only the BVA to standardize the hip health breeders scheme, but I found this chart based on the OFA.

http://www.malamutehealth.org/articles/ ... netics.htm

(you have to scroll down a ways to find the chart)

So my question is:

What if instead of each Tamaskan being sanctioned to breed based on it's individual hip score alone, the *breeding pair* were sanctioned based on their probability of producing puppies with healthy hips? (I mean, that's really the whole point of a hip scheme, right?)

You could preserve a larger genetic breeding pool without sacrificing the hip health of future generations *and* continue to breed toward healthier scores for the entire breed.

(Please bear with me while I use the OFA scores for discussion purposes since I do not have a BVA chart.)

For example; the minimum passing score for hips is "fair." If both parents have "fair" hips, they have an 83.7% chance of producing a pup with healthy hips. That was lowest probability tolerated by the TDR for registered breeders. (without a BVA chart, we don't know the present tolerated probability but it's apparently easier to pass BVA than OFA based on anecdotal evidence of owners which might suggest the tolerated risk is actually greater now.)

So if the breeder scheme was changed? What if it said a litter would have to have a minimum 84% chance of producing pups with healthy hips? Then even a mildly dysplastic dog could breed with another dog with excellent hips resulting in an even better probability (85.1%) of producing puppies with healthy hips. (This is the probability in the litter I am getting my puppy, Paka, from.) :P

Obviously, an "excellent" to "excellent" match is always more desirable and no one could argue that. But considering how rare a breed the Tamaskan is and how wide spread the individual breeding dogs can be, increasing the potential breeding stock and creating new possibilities for pairs could be very valuable too, especially since it can be accomplished by actually increasing the minimum hip health requirements by a full percentage point of probability! :D

A "fair" dog could still breed, but only to a BETTER than "fair" dog. A displastic dog could even breed, but only to an "excelent" dog.
As the breed proliferates, the acceptable probability score could be increased even more as now dogs with healthy hips become available form their diverse genetic backgrounds.

Bottom line: broader genetic background, more breeding dogs, AND higher hip standards. :D What's not to love?! :lol:

Is there a BVA version of a statistical probability chart that could be used as a guide? Since the BVA is more objective than the OFA it has the potential of being even more effective as a guide.

What are your thoughts? Worries? Hopes?

~Angie
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Rahne » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:45 pm

I know in some breeds they use a point system similar to what you are suggesting. A = 1, B = 2, C = 3, D = 4 etc. and then, for example, the breeding rules say that the max. score for a combination cannot exceed 4. So an C can only be bred to an A, and B to A/B.

I don't think you should only look at the hip scores of one dog. I know the TDR might make exceptions if a dog has a score slightly over 18 (the max. currently accepted) but is outstanding in any other way.. What I think is very important is to look at the overall picture of the dog (temperament, other health, type) and at the siblings/(grand)parents aswell. If a dog with bad hips comes from a litter were all others have excellent hips then that could be just an unlucky case (maybe environmental) but if it comes from a litter were there are several other siblings with bad hips aswell then it is most likely the genetics playing the biggest role.

Sorry but i'm going to go into this again....
I'm not sure what the total score of Jethro is? If it is under 26 then it is not a very bad score (although certainly worse then most of the Tamaskan) so that alone wouldn't worry me too much if he was bred to a female with excellent hips but it is what is behind him that worries me.. Several of his siblings have failed hips aswell as his father, and his grandfather just passing (and producing several dogs with 'bad' hips in different lines). So far it is only getting worse every generation instead of getting better so I don't know why you would think it would be better this time?? Why if you breed a litter with a dog that has bad hips to another dog that hasn't and then hope you will get pups with good hips.. why do you keep one pup from that litter with bad hips and then try again? How many generations before the hips are starting to get better? You see... I don't see how this is improving the breed, there are plenty of Tamaskan with good hips (from the same lines aswell) so why not use them instead? The scheme clearly shows that if you use a dog with good hips you have much more chance of producing pups with good hips.

Please correct me if i'm mistaken but hasn't there already been a Ruby x Jethro litter? If so, are any of those pups hip scored?

I'm one of the persons who will NOT just say, ohh bad genes/hips/etc. so exlude the dog for breeding.. Instead look at the whole picture and not just stare blindly on that one factor. But in this case with the hips I really see no point whatsoever that this male can actually better the breed.. I'm very worried it will only make it worse.

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by AngieH » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:27 am

Does anyone know about an evidenced-based breeding scheme based on statistical probabilities? (for any trait, is fine) for my story research, I'd like to talk to a breeder using one.

-Angie
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Blustag » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:42 pm

I would just like to say that the TDR breeding rules regarding hips is unlikely to change.

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:14 pm

Rahne wrote: Please correct me if i'm mistaken but hasn't there already been a Ruby x Jethro litter? If so, are any of those pups hip scored?
We have Darwin, (J&J Devil of Piru) who is a Ruby x Jethro puppy. We rescued him from the previous owner, and before he was fixed. We intend to have his hips scored not long after his first birthday which will be October 27, 2011. I don't have high hopes, but we want to know.

I also know of two other sibling's parents from that litter (via Facebook...not here in the forum), both male puppies, who also intend to have hips scored soon as well. This is why it is SO nice to connect with folks in the Tamaskan community--not only to share sibling / relative health test results, but it is also so cool to hear about behavioral traits that come out in siblings.

But as far as statistical analysis of inheritance--are we sure this is accurate? I thought that researchers hadn't even identified all of the genes involved in dysplasia inheritance. If we don't know that, how can we extrapolate statistically? Also, I didn't think that science had discovered how these genes control inheritance (because it is not always as straightforward as Dominant and Recessive). I'm not saying that statistics must be wrong because we don't know these things...but maybe someone could explain this to me... just putting things out there that I do know (or think I know, anyway...it has been over 10 years since I had a graduate level genetics course ;) haha)
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Rahne » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:06 am

Hawthorne wrote:
Rahne wrote: Please correct me if i'm mistaken but hasn't there already been a Ruby x Jethro litter? If so, are any of those pups hip scored?
We have Darwin, (J&J Devil of Piru) who is a Ruby x Jethro puppy. We rescued him from the previous owner, and before he was fixed. We intend to have his hips scored not long after his first birthday which will be October 27, 2011. I don't have high hopes, but we want to know.

I also know of two other sibling's parents from that litter (via Facebook...not here in the forum), both male puppies, who also intend to have hips scored soon as well. This is why it is SO nice to connect with folks in the Tamaskan community--not only to share sibling / relative health test results, but it is also so cool to hear about behavioral traits that come out in siblings.
I thought so.. J&J want to improve the hips with this mating, then why don't they wait untill they have any results back? How do they know they are in fact 'improving' if they don't have any health results back? What if these hips are bad, then they now will have a 2nd litter of the same combination 'improving' the breed. Why not breed Ruby to a different male now to diversity the lines?
I really don't get it :?

What I would have done (actually I wouldn't have used this dog for mating at all)... only use him ONCE on a bitch with excellent hips. In the pup contract I would state that if the pup would have his hips tested between 1 and 2 years of age the owner would get a refund of the pupprice (to hopefully stimulate the owners to test the dogs). All pups would be sold on pet contract so NO breeding allowed untill I would decide otherwise. I would then wait untill 2 years of age to get back as many results as possible and then maybe decide to lift the breeding restrictions on a dog with excellent hips, but it would depend on all the scores.
But as far as statistical analysis of inheritance--are we sure this is accurate? I thought that researchers hadn't even identified all of the genes involved in dysplasia inheritance. If we don't know that, how can we extrapolate statistically? Also, I didn't think that science had discovered how these genes control inheritance (because it is not always as straightforward as Dominant and Recessive). I'm not saying that statistics must be wrong because we don't know these things...but maybe someone could explain this to me... just putting things out there that I do know (or think I know, anyway...it has been over 10 years since I had a graduate level genetics course ;) haha)
You are right, it's still not certain how Hip Dysplasia is passed on. What part is genetic, environmental etc. Dogs with excellent hips can get pups with bad hips and dogs with bad hips might get pups with excellent hips. But it does seem that breeding from bad hips has a much higher chance of causing more bad hips then when you would breed with good hips. So to prevent bad hips as much as possible you would breed with dogs with good hips as much as possible, that makes sense to me.

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by AngieH » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:17 pm

(wow, it's getting kind of hot in here. I'm trying real hard to stay out of the personal and speculative parts of the discussion.)

The statistics and probabilities in the chart are simply the recorded results of matings already achieved and the scores of dogs already produced. The chart is not based on theorized future mathematical conjecture, but based on actual past performance.

If you are looking for the "proof in the pudding" this chart analyzed the whole pudding to minimize statistical variability.

While the "proof" speculatively challenged for here is just the simple anecdotal evidence of a single litter from a single breeding underwent by an out of grace breeder.

If one doubts the years and years of carefully collected previous results and findings, then sure, it makes perfect sense to wait for the individual results of a single litter.

For my part, I don't doubt them. I am actually excited about it and am glad researchers took the time to analyze all this data so breeders and breed clubs have an evidence based tool to realistically decide the level of risk they are willing to tolerate where hip displasia is concerned.
(though no one suggested it is the *only* consideration in planning a litter, it is certianly an important one as evidenced by intensity emotion in the posts that mention it on this forum.)
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by blufawn » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:26 pm

Its an interesting chart but it doesnt give any sort of degree of dysplacia in the parent dogs such a moderate, severe etc, nor does it list those dogs who have HD due to environmental factors, if any. Nor does it say if it is breed specific, I think this does make a difference as some breeds have naturally healthy hips compared with others such as the GSD.

Judy's foundation male failed his hips, of the four pups tested who are sired by Judy's male, three of them failed and one passed (although only just).
One of those pups who failed has gone on to produce a litter and I am pleased that three of the pups from that litter plan to have their hips tested. Would it not be prudent to wait to see the results of those puppies tests before breeding another unregistered litter from a failed dogs that has a chance (however slim) of producing dogs that could suffer with a serious and painful disease and continuing the cycle of failing hips?
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by AngieH » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:09 pm

blufawn wrote:Its an interesting chart but it doesnt give any sort of degree of dysplacia in the parent dogs such a moderate, severe etc, nor does it list those dogs who have HD due to environmental factors, if any. Nor does it say if it is breed specific, I think this does make a difference as some breeds have naturally healthy hips compared with others such as the GSD.

Judy's foundation male failed his hips, of the four pups tested who are sired by Judy's male, three of them failed and one passed (although only just).
One of those pups who failed has gone on to produce a litter and I am pleased that three of the pups from that litter plan to have their hips tested. Would it not be prudent to wait to see the results of those puppies tests before breeding another unregistered litter from a failed dogs that has a chance (however slim) of producing dogs that could suffer with a serious and painful disease and continuing the cycle of failing hips?
(I respectfully decline to engage the second paragraph since 1- if Judy wants to defend her breeding program or provide explanation it is her decision wether or not to do so and how and where. 2- an absent third party is a too easy a mark for speculation and conjecture based on limmited knowledge and our individual personal experiences with her which vary greatly and 3- it doesn't consider the results if the Tundra/Blaze litter which so closely mirrors the genotype and phenotype of the Ruby/Jethro cross offering additional insight into the potential outcomes.)

But I completely agree with your thoughts expressed in the first paragraph. In my original post I asked if anyone knew of a similar chart based on the more reliable BVA scoring system. The statistical deviation would be much less since the scores are far more concrete and objective in the BVA scheme. The results of a similar chart using BVA data could even go so far as to show the range of variability in the *severity* of CHD adding yet another useful angle to the tool allowing breeders to not only evaluate the risk if producing pups with CHD or not but to also take into consideration the probable range of severity as well! Precisely why this study excited me.

There would still, of course, be the variation of diet, lifestyle and environment, but one could reasonably expect that variation to be consistent throughout the chart.
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:48 pm

Angie,
Please do not take anything I said as being defensive or confrontational. I'm merely having a discussion of ideas and am not saying anyone is right or wrong. However, that said, I completely admit that I tend to be rather conservative about taking risk. In my eyes, breeding based on test results rather than statistical analysis seems the way to go. But again, I'm also new to the dog breeding world. All I have is my life experience, background in biology and work with coyotes. I value other people's ideas because I can't possibly have a perspective from other backgrounds. I try--but we can't do it all all of the time :)

I really appreciate this discussion and think it is very valuable. Certainly with more eyes and ears out there we will be more likely to hear about research taking place. This is exciting that we can come together as a community and have discussions "in public."

I once told my husband that if I was mad at him, he'd know it. I don't get angry easily, but if I do it's because someone has pointed fingers where they don't need to be pointed...and you certainly have not done this at all.

I too am interested in the statistical analysis of this inherited disease. Pretty neat stuff, and if I had more time at the moment I'd want to read the actual publication. Is there a website this came from? Or a professional paper?
Cheers,
Tracy
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by AngieH » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:47 am

Hawthorne wrote:Angie,
Please do not take anything I said as being defensive or confrontational. I'm merely having a discussion of ideas and am not saying anyone is right or wrong. However, that said, I completely admit that I tend to be rather conservative about taking risk. In my eyes, breeding based on test results rather than statistical analysis seems the way to go. But again, I'm also new to the dog breeding world. All I have is my life experience, background in biology and work with coyotes. I value other people's ideas because I can't possibly have a perspective from other backgrounds. I try--but we can't do it all all of the time :)

I really appreciate this discussion and think it is very valuable. Certainly with more eyes and ears out there we will be more likely to hear about research taking place. This is exciting that we can come together as a community and have discussions "in public."

I once told my husband that if I was mad at him, he'd know it. I don't get angry easily, but if I do it's because someone has pointed fingers where they don't need to be pointed...and you certainly have not done this at all.

I too am interested in the statistical analysis of this inherited disease. Pretty neat stuff, and if I had more time at the moment I'd want to read the actual publication. Is there a website this came from? Or a professional paper?
Cheers,
Tracy
Not at all Tracy. There is a big difference between predicting what will happen vs. analyzing what actually did happen and it's smart to clarify what kind of data you are dealing with at any given time. I absolutely respect a call for proof and source material and, like you, have a low tolerance for pointing fingers or expert statements made without proper credentials or citations.

Like you, I am new to this dog-breedign world. In my case, I have only my nursing background, college genetics courses from the early 90's (I know... old) and my work with animal shelters to go on. But if I do point a finger, it's not in blame, it's in excited eagerness pointing at something I'd like others to see too. Granted, my exuberance can be annoying. But I have a few worse faults I have to work on first. :? :x

The chart was done by Dr. G.G. Keller D.M.V based on 152,589 progeny in the OFA Hip database with known sire and dam hip scores and was first published in 2003 on the OFA website as part of its introductory article, "The use of health databases and selective breeding"

You might also enjoy this site:
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/chd.html
This is a labrador-specific source of information but the amount of detail is awesome! Not only is the info great in itself, it also cites a multitude of resources and articles for further study. But after reading through all 8 parts, we might end up more knowledgable about CHD than most vets! :lol:

~Angie
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Hawthorne » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:58 pm

Hey, Thanks Angie. I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't angry. Sometimes folks think text is lashing off the page at them when really it's just a discussion. Like you, I have exuberance too. :D :D :D So I do appreciate this type of discussion maybe more than most. I will certainly check out the info you've posted.
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by stnkyferit » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:03 pm

I was searching the forums and found this post. I just wanted to say that I am one of the 3 who are going to have our male pup (well, dog now) x-rayed from the previous litter. I have Darwin's brother....

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Hawthorne » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:24 pm

stnkyferit,
Cool! I always LOVE meeting folks who have siblings of the dogs that we have.
How much does your boy weigh now? Darwin is hanging around 82 pounds. How's he been? Darwin is going through a rough stage--he's been kinda crazy lately. We are just very patient with him and redirect him consistently. Walks do him a world of good, and hopefully a dog scooter will help once we get one....
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by stnkyferit » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:10 pm

Hawthorne wrote:stnkyferit,
Cool! I always LOVE meeting folks who have siblings of the dogs that we have.
How much does your boy weigh now? Darwin is hanging around 82 pounds. How's he been? Darwin is going through a rough stage--he's been kinda crazy lately. We are just very patient with him and redirect him consistently. Walks do him a world of good, and hopefully a dog scooter will help once we get one....
Hey Tracy - I have Jett (you know me :D )

Jett is doing well...he's a good boy....he has his moments, but overall, he's pretty good. Now, ask my 5 year old, who is the target of the pouncing dog, and has his toys stolen and eaten - I think he would have a different opinion!

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:46 am

OH HI!!!
Glad you found the forum--yay! The more the merrier :)
Glad Jett is doing well.
Merry Christmas.
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:53 pm

Blustag wrote:I would just like to say that the TDR breeding rules regarding hips is unlikely to change.
LOL except when it is convenient... :evil:
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:35 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Blustag wrote:I would just like to say that the TDR breeding rules regarding hips is unlikely to change.
LOL except when it is convenient... :evil:
I was tempted to say that the other day :lol:
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by balto13 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:47 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Blustag wrote:I would just like to say that the TDR breeding rules regarding hips is unlikely to change.
LOL except when it is convenient... :evil:
:lol: :lol: I laugh because out of ALL people does she really have ANY room to talk about rules regarding breeding?

As far as J & J go I don't know much about the Jethro situation (but have been briefed about it) but would like to say that after meeting them, and Ruby, I hope that it can all be settled soon because Ruby is gorgeous and they are nice people. I also love Jethro and am saddened that he got a bad score, does anybody know what it is exactly?

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by arianwenarie » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:38 am

balto13 wrote:
Sylvaen wrote:
Blustag wrote:I would just like to say that the TDR breeding rules regarding hips is unlikely to change.
LOL except when it is convenient... :evil:
:lol: :lol: I laugh because out of ALL people does she really have ANY room to talk about rules regarding breeding?

As far as J & J go I don't know much about the Jethro situation (but have been briefed about it) but would like to say that after meeting them, and Ruby, I hope that it can all be settled soon because Ruby is gorgeous and they are nice people. I also love Jethro and am saddened that he got a bad score, does anybody know what it is exactly?
As far as I know, Jethro was hip scored by OFA and failed his hips. I think his hip x-rays were also sent to BVA, but they weren't scored because his microchip number wasn't on them and Judy is hesitant about putting Jethro under anesthesia again to get his hips x-rayed again.

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Ryphen » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:59 am

If I remember correctly, OFA failed Jethro on one hip and passed him on the other, but the rest of the above is accurate.

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by balto13 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:13 am

I can see somebody not wanting to put a dog under anesthesia if it's not needed, and it's too bad that she cannot turn in Jethro's hip score to BVA. Is the scoring system different between the two? Does the TDR require tams to pass both OFA and BVA?

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by arianwenarie » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:39 pm

balto13 wrote:I can see somebody not wanting to put a dog under anesthesia if it's not needed, and it's too bad that she cannot turn in Jethro's hip score to BVA. Is the scoring system different between the two? Does the TDR require tams to pass both OFA and BVA?
I think the last I had heard about Jethro's hip scoring is that Judy is considering getting his hips x-rayed again so they can be scored by BVA. If passing, I believe she'll her kennel will be re-registered with the TDR.

OFA will give a score of "Excellent", "Good", "Fair", "Moderate", "Borderline", "Mild" and "Severe", I think. Whereas the BVA gives a number for each hip and then the dog's score is the combined number. i.e. 1/4 (5), 16/34 (50).

Not sure if the score comparison chart on wikipedia is accurate, but as far as I remember, it's pretty close to it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_score

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by balto13 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:14 pm

what is considered failing from OFA? Moderate - Severe?

I don't know how old Jethro is, but I hope she puts him under soon to re score him if she is going to, because he isn't getting younger. He is very handsome though! :) And I think it would be a good thing for her kennel to be re registered. I know there is a saying about "too many cooks in the kitchen", but I feel at this point "the kitchen could use some more cooks".

I thought there were other stipulations as well, such as mating a new stud with Ruby if she did breed Ruby again. She is sooo pretty, I love her colors, masks and temperament. Total sweety :D I don't know who she is related to, would she have to be mated to Zephyr or Jager?

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by arianwenarie » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:13 pm

balto13 wrote:what is considered failing from OFA? Moderate - Severe?

I don't know how old Jethro is, but I hope she puts him under soon to re score him if she is going to, because he isn't getting younger. He is very handsome though! :) And I think it would be a good thing for her kennel to be re registered. I know there is a saying about "too many cooks in the kitchen", but I feel at this point "the kitchen could use some more cooks".

I thought there were other stipulations as well, such as mating a new stud with Ruby if she did breed Ruby again. She is sooo pretty, I love her colors, masks and temperament. Total sweety :D I don't know who she is related to, would she have to be mated to Zephyr or Jager?
A passing score from OFA is Fair since highest passing BVA score is 18. The problem with OFA is that it doesn't give a numerical score. OFA Excellent is estimated to be between BVA 0-4. If two dogs scored OFA Good and OFA Fair are mated, their BVA scores might be 10 & 18, respectively...and then both dogs' left hips might be higher than their right; which subsequently may produce pups with bad left hips.

I believe the TDR prefers breeders to use BVA to score their dogs since they give a score for each hip - it gives breeders more info. However, if breeders want to use OFA, PennHipp (USA) or other scoring schemes available in their own country, then that's an option since it would be a shame to lose potential breeding dogs because their vets won't do BVA scoring. ;)

Ruby's kennel name is Alba Sverical @ J&J. Here's her pedigree: http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/database/dog?id=138
Jethro's kennel name (unregistered) is J&J Night Owl. You can see their offspring's pedigree through J&J Devil of Piru @ Hawthorne (Darwin) here: http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/database/dog?id=190

Pedigree-wise, I believe Ruby will be a good match for Jaeger and Zephyr since they're unrelated - you can use the matchmaker function in the database to see the pedigrees. I don't know if Ruby has been DM tested. Zephyr is clear, so Ruby x Zephyr might be good. However, Jaeger is At-Risk for DM - any female he's bred with must be DM Clear so that they only produce DM Carriers. Ruby's hips are OFA Good, so she might be OK hip score wise to be bred to Zephyr (BVA 10) and Jaeger (BVA 11), but probably not with any males with scores higher than that.

I honestly do hope that Jethro can be scored through BVA and passes so that we might be able to use him with low scoring females. Personally speaking, it'd be a shame to lose his bloodline as his dam is unique to the US and he passes on the light yellow eye gene. :D

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by balto13 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:35 pm

I put both possibilities into the match maker on the TDR Registry forum and these are the results:

Ruby x Zephyr

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Ruby x Jaeger

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I am no geneticist nor a breeder, so I would like some input/ translation on to these two possibilities. It looks like Cryptorchidism is in a good amount of both but Epilepsy more so in a Ruby x Jaeger - once again, I realize I have no background and am not trying to say I know these things, just what it looks like to me. Any light shed on this would be nice, because well, I like learning about these kinds of things! :D

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Rahne » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:21 pm

arianwenarie wrote: Pedigree-wise, I believe Ruby will be a good match for Jaeger and Zephyr since they're unrelated - you can use the matchmaker function in the database to see the pedigrees. I don't know if Ruby has been DM tested. Zephyr is clear, so Ruby x Zephyr might be good. However, Jaeger is At-Risk for DM - any female he's bred with must be DM Clear so that they only produce DM Carriers. Ruby's hips are OFA Good, so she might be OK hip score wise to be bred to Zephyr (BVA 10) and Jaeger (BVA 11), but probably not with any males with scores higher than that.
Ruby is DM Clear, Jethro is DM Carrier.
arianwenarie wrote: I honestly do hope that Jethro can be scored through BVA and passes so that we might be able to use him with low scoring females. Personally speaking, it'd be a shame to lose his bloodline as his dam is unique to the US and he passes on the light yellow eye gene. :D
His bloodline is far from lost... his sisters Tundra and Takeia have been bred from and several of their offspring are used for further breeding. His son Darwin is also being used as stud.
balto13 wrote:I put both possibilities into the match maker on the TDR Registry forum and these are the results:
I am no geneticist nor a breeder, so I would like some input/ translation on to these two possibilities. It looks like Cryptorchidism is in a good amount of both but Epilepsy more so in a Ruby x Jaeger - once again, I realize I have no background and am not trying to say I know these things, just what it looks like to me. Any light shed on this would be nice, because well, I like learning about these kinds of things! :D
I think Ruby x Zephyr would be a very good mating. Both are DM Clear and the US has several breeding dogs that are DM Carriers, so they could certainly use some more DM Clear dogs.

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by AZDehlin » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:31 am

arianwenarie wrote: Ruby's hips are OFA Good, so she might be OK hip score wise to be bred to Zephyr (BVA 10) and Jaeger (BVA 11), but probably not with any males with scores higher than that.
Zephyr's hip score is also 11 not 10 ;)

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by arianwenarie » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:15 am

AZDehlin wrote:
arianwenarie wrote: Ruby's hips are OFA Good, so she might be OK hip score wise to be bred to Zephyr (BVA 10) and Jaeger (BVA 11), but probably not with any males with scores higher than that.
Zephyr's hip score is also 11 not 10 ;)
Geez..my memory is rather off, it seems. lol. Sorry about that. :oops: I think I may have mixed up him up with his sister's (Sequoia) score.. haha.

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by akaye531 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:06 am

Out of curiosity - if Jethro's hips pass and J&J were to be reinstated, would Jethro's offspring be allowed to petition for registration?

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by balto13 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:34 am

akaye531 wrote:Out of curiosity - if Jethro's hips pass and J&J were to be reinstated, would Jethro's offspring be allowed to petition for registration?
are his offspring (as of now) not registered? or do you mean anybody who purchases from them in the future?
AZDehlin wrote:
arianwenarie wrote: Ruby's hips are OFA Good, so she might be OK hip score wise to be bred to Zephyr (BVA 10) and Jaeger (BVA 11), but probably not with any males with scores higher than that.
Zephyr's hip score is also 11 not 10 ;)
So does Ruby not have a BVA score? what is good? usually between 5-10? (my best guess)

what about Ruby x Dylan? I told Judy today that I was playing around with Ruby on the match maker on the TDR Registration Site. hahaha. I feel silly, but I like being able to try and translate it all.
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:45 pm

Rahne wrote:I think Ruby x Zephyr would be a very good mating. Both are DM Clear and the US has several breeding dogs that are DM Carriers, so they could certainly use some more DM Clear dogs.
I agree. :)
balto13 wrote:
akaye531 wrote:Out of curiosity - if Jethro's hips pass and J&J were to be reinstated, would Jethro's offspring be allowed to petition for registration?
are his offspring (as of now) not registered? or do you mean anybody who purchases from them in the future?
As Judy is not a TDR breeder (at this time) her recent and current litters are not registered. IF she had Jethro properly hip scored (and he passed), then his offspring could be registered with the TDR. However, it seems unlikely that he would pass as the x-rays showed that his hips were not very good (though one side was worse than the other). She does not want him x-rayed again, so unless she decides to castrate Jethro (not continue to use him for breeding) I don't think she will be able to rejoin the TDR, since the rules are quite clear about only breeding from dogs with good hips. IF she retired Jethro but kept one of his male offspring, and had him fully health tested (with passing scores) when he was of-age, then she could use that male instead.
balto13 wrote:what about Ruby x Dylan? I told Judy today that I was playing around with Ruby on the match maker on the TDR Registration Site. hahaha. I feel silly, but I like being able to try and translate it all.
Personally, I don't think Ruby X Jaegar or Ruby X Dylan would be a good match... IMHO the epilepsy risk is too high, on both sides of the pedigree(s).
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Booma » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:17 pm

arianwenarie wrote: I believe the TDR prefers breeders to use BVA to score their dogs since they give a score for each hip - it gives breeders more info. However, if breeders want to use OFA, PennHipp (USA) or other scoring schemes available in their own country, then that's an option since it would be a shame to lose potential breeding dogs because their vets won't do BVA scoring. ;)
I thought dogs had to be scored through the bva and other scoring systems wouldn't be accepted?
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by arianwenarie » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:17 pm

Kylievr wrote:
arianwenarie wrote: I believe the TDR prefers breeders to use BVA to score their dogs since they give a score for each hip - it gives breeders more info. However, if breeders want to use OFA, PennHipp (USA) or other scoring schemes available in their own country, then that's an option since it would be a shame to lose potential breeding dogs because their vets won't do BVA scoring. ;)
I thought dogs had to be scored through the bva and other scoring systems wouldn't be accepted?
Not sure..when the Blus were still around, it was changed to BVA scores only, but after the change, I think it switched to BVA preferred, other local hip scoring schemes acceptable if their vet cannot score via BVA. Could a TDR rep confirm/correct this? :)

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Booma » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:16 am

It will be cheaper for me to have them scored in Australia. Just did a quick Google search, it seems they use the same scoring system as the BVA, giving a score of between 0 and 106.
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by AZDehlin » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:00 am

Ruby was tested with OFA because it was before BVA was mandatory.... Now FCI and BVA are accepted, dont think OFA is. Also if I am not mistaken isn't it the clubs choice on what hip scoring scheme they accept?

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by balto13 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:59 am

Sylvaen wrote:
balto13 wrote:
akaye531 wrote:Out of curiosity - if Jethro's hips pass and J&J were to be reinstated, would Jethro's offspring be allowed to petition for registration?
are his offspring (as of now) not registered? or do you mean anybody who purchases from them in the future?
As Judy is not a TDR breeder (at this time) her recent and current litters are not registered. IF she had Jethro properly hip scored (and he passed), then his offspring could be registered with the TDR. However, it seems unlikely that he would pass as the x-rays showed that his hips were not very good (though one side was worse than the other). She does not want him x-rayed again, so unless she decides to castrate Jethro (not continue to use him for breeding) I don't think she will be able to rejoin the TDR, since the rules are quite clear about only breeding from dogs with good hips. IF she retired Jethro but kept one of his male offspring, and had him fully health tested (with passing scores) when he was of-age, then she could use that male instead.

Personally, I don't think Ruby X Jaegar or Ruby X Dylan would be a good match... IMHO the epilepsy risk is too high, on both sides of the pedigree(s).
Interesting! I thought there was a lot of epilepsy too, but didn't want to look silly saying it.

I thought Zorro was out of the last Ruby x Jethro litter? and does that mean that if she has a littler prior to taking care of Jethro (castrating) that she will not only be not invited into the TDR but her litter cannot be registered? is there another way aside from Jethro getting re scored or castrated that those who purchase from her from her recent or future (if there is one) litter have their pups registered, such as having to wait till their dogs were old enough to score and presenting a case to the committee?
AZDehlin wrote:Ruby was tested with OFA because it was before BVA was mandatory.... Now FCI and BVA are accepted, dont think OFA is. Also if I am not mistaken isn't it the clubs choice on what hip scoring scheme they accept?
does that mean the US Tam club could potentially require J & J to also get Ruby re scored through the BVA?

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Booma » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:09 am

AZDehlin wrote:Ruby was tested with OFA because it was before BVA was mandatory.... Now FCI and BVA are accepted, dont think OFA is. Also if I am not mistaken isn't it the clubs choice on what hip scoring scheme they accept?

Australia does not have a club yet, there aren't enough dogs here to start one.
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Ryphen » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:03 pm

balto13 wrote:I thought Zorro was out of the last Ruby x Jethro litter? and does that mean that if she has a littler prior to taking care of Jethro (castrating) that she will not only be not invited into the TDR but her litter cannot be registered? is there another way aside from Jethro getting re scored or castrated that those who purchase from her from her recent or future (if there is one) litter have their pups registered, such as having to wait till their dogs were old enough to score and presenting a case to the committee?
Seems there might be a way to get them registered since Darwin, from Ruby and Jethro's first litter, now at Hawthorne, is a registered stud dog. I know he had all his health testing done and passed, but don't know if there was anything else required for the registration to be granted.
balto13 wrote:does that mean the US Tam club could potentially require J & J to also get Ruby re scored through the BVA?
The last I knew, Ruby was potentially going to have one more litter before being retired, so any kind of rescoring could be a moot point.

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Hawthorne » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:27 pm

Ryphen wrote:Seems there might be a way to get them registered since Darwin, from Ruby and Jethro's first litter, now at Hawthorne, is a registered stud dog. I know he had all his health testing done and passed, but don't know if there was anything else required for the registration to be granted.
Yes, I supplied BVA hip scores (BVA 6), DNA Parentage test, and DM test results (clear). He is also microchipped, of course, and has been verified by a vet that both testicles are present in the scrotum. I then paid the registration fee and filled out the paperwork with the TDR.
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by balto13 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:43 pm

Ryphen wrote:
balto13 wrote:I thought Zorro was out of the last Ruby x Jethro litter? and does that mean that if she has a littler prior to taking care of Jethro (castrating) that she will not only be not invited into the TDR but her litter cannot be registered? is there another way aside from Jethro getting re scored or castrated that those who purchase from her from her recent or future (if there is one) litter have their pups registered, such as having to wait till their dogs were old enough to score and presenting a case to the committee?
Seems there might be a way to get them registered since Darwin, from Ruby and Jethro's first litter, now at Hawthorne, is a registered stud dog. I know he had all his health testing done and passed, but don't know if there was anything else required for the registration to be granted.
balto13 wrote:does that mean the US Tam club could potentially require J & J to also get Ruby re scored through the BVA?
The last I knew, Ruby was potentially going to have one more litter before being retired, so any kind of rescoring could be a moot point.
that's what I was thinking. Thank you for answering all my questions!

Hawthorne wrote:
Ryphen wrote:Seems there might be a way to get them registered since Darwin, from Ruby and Jethro's first litter, now at Hawthorne, is a registered stud dog. I know he had all his health testing done and passed, but don't know if there was anything else required for the registration to be granted.
Yes, I supplied BVA hip scores (BVA 6), DNA Parentage test, and DM test results (clear). He is also microchipped, of course, and has been verified by a vet that both testicles are present in the scrotum. I then paid the registration fee and filled out the paperwork with the TDR.
wow! those are good hips! does his other offspring have hips that good?

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Hawthorne » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:45 pm

balto13 wrote: wow! those are good hips! does his other offspring have hips that good?
Jethro and Ruby's other offspring? I don't know. As far as I know Darwin is the only one who actually had his hips scored. Someone else had the xrays done, but never submitted them to the BVA.
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by balto13 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:54 pm

I have to say Darwin is quite handsome! Hope he fathers another litter!

Who are Jethro's parents?

Correct me if I am wrong - I can be horrible at trying to remember & keep track of this stuff - is Zorro, Paka and Fable out of a Ruby x Jethro litter? (different litters, same parents) I know there's probably a good deal more, but I don't know them.

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Hawthorne » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:11 pm

Thank you. I hope Darwin fathers another litter too! His DM clear and good hips are nice qualities. Plus his temper is very sweet. He's ridiculous, actually.

Jethro's parents are Blustag River Rising at J&J (Lobo) and Blustag Menominee Owl at J&J (Woulf). Per database: http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/database/dog?id=108 You can look up any dog you wish :D

Zorro, Paka and Fable are Ruby x Jethro puppies. So is Kuhmo. From what I understand, Ruby x Jethro have had three litters (I think 27 pups in total; three litters of nine).
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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by balto13 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:21 pm

Hawthorne wrote:Thank you. I hope Darwin fathers another litter too! His DM clear and good hips are nice qualities. Plus his temper is very sweet. He's ridiculous, actually.
and next time you'll get ... 7 puppies!! (I figure if I put it out there it will come true)
Hawthorne wrote:Jethro's parents are Blustag River Rising at J&J (Lobo) and Blustag Menominee Owl at J&J (Woulf). Per database: http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/database/dog?id=108 You can look up any dog you wish :D
I tried to look up Jethro put nothing comes up, so thank you for telling me the parents! His father was gorgeous, and so is his mother - I got to meet her not too long ago, love her coat, eyes and temperament!
Hawthorne wrote:Zorro, Paka and Fable are Ruby x Jethro puppies. So is Kuhmo. From what I understand, Ruby x Jethro have had three litters (I think 27 pups in total; three litters of nine).
wow :shock: that's a lot of puppies, and only one has gone to breeding home? Well I guess that's a good thing because it would make the US gene pool quite small and shallow if more than that were breeding.

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Ryphen » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:03 pm

balto13 wrote:
Hawthorne wrote:Jethro's parents are Blustag River Rising at J&J (Lobo) and Blustag Menominee Owl at J&J (Woulf). Per database: http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/database/dog?id=108 You can look up any dog you wish :D
I tried to look up Jethro put nothing comes up, so thank you for telling me the parents! His father was gorgeous, and so is his mother - I got to meet her not too long ago, love her coat, eyes and temperament!
Yeah, I believe he's not in there because he's unregistered and he was never re-submitted as such afterwards. Woulf can be a riot. When I was there picking up Kumho, she jumped right up on me and started licking my face. Can totally see where Kumho gets it from.
balto13 wrote:
Hawthorne wrote:Zorro, Paka and Fable are Ruby x Jethro puppies. So is Kuhmo. From what I understand, Ruby x Jethro have had three litters (I think 27 pups in total; three litters of nine).
wow :shock: that's a lot of puppies, and only one has gone to breeding home? Well I guess that's a good thing because it would make the US gene pool quite small and shallow if more than that were breeding.
Well, if Zorro passes all his tests, there will be two. ;) And for the life of me, I can't remember if Judy kept one of the puppies from Ruby and Jethro's first litter as a potential breeding dog. My memory is getting terrible as I get older. Can you imagine what a family reunion would be like? :lol:

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by balto13 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:33 pm

Woulf is a riot, she greeted my husband and I with kisses and tail wags :D And, I know they have a girl named ginger, though I am not sure if she is a Jethro x Ruby girl.

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by akaye531 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:34 pm

Mowgli is a Ruby x Jethro pup from her litter this past fall.
Hawthorne wrote:
balto13 wrote: wow! those are good hips! does his other offspring have hips that good?
Jethro and Ruby's other offspring? I don't know. As far as I know Darwin is the only one who actually had his hips scored. Someone else had the xrays done, but never submitted them to the BVA.
I'm planning on having my boy's hips checked as well. Not interested in using him as a stud, but thought the info could be useful considering his sire's hips are a bit controversial. And plus - I think knowing if he has bad hips would be useful information for me.

Ryphen wrote: And for the life of me, I can't remember if Judy kept one of the puppies from Ruby and Jethro's first litter as a potential breeding dog. My memory is getting terrible as I get older. Can you imagine what a family reunion would be like? :lol:
Pretty sure Judy has one pup from Rubys first litter. Ginger is her name? Maybe?

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Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by Ryphen » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:43 pm

Yeah, I was remembering the name Ginger but couldn't place who the parents are. Perhaps that's right then.

balto13
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
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Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:40 am

Re: parental hip score probability chart

Post by balto13 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:04 pm

Ginger is gorgeous! My husband loves her! Though the more I look into it the more I am on the fence about more Jethro x Ruby offspring mating. Not because I don't love the turn out, but because I feel that there are already so many related Tams with in the US that adding more would kind of put the US in a hard place that would take a few generations to get out of.

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