Obedience issue.

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Obedience issue.

Post by jyotin » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:53 am

I know that Tam's are supposed to be "friendly", however I don't know if Logan actually is. Since we got him he has been around people of all sizes (except toddlers and babies) all of the time. Recently however, I myself at times become scared of him. He listens to commands, sit, down, come, etc., especially when food is involved, but at times, and more so often, he can act very aggressive.

He is exercised well, we make him work for his food (he'll run into his crate and wait in the down position until we say its okay for him to eat). It's not as though he "runs" the house and we listen to him or anything. The problem is that for some reason he will start to attack us out of no where. At first he would do it to my mom and dad, but as my dad took more responsibility with him he stopped. But now it is with all of us, and is actually quite shocking at times.

For example, he sleeps on the floor of my brothers room, or on the bed in my room. When my mom goes into my brothers room to get him up for school...he will attack her...we've come to the conclusion that he's protective of my brother. We even have my mom handle his food, command him a lot more, but still, sometimes when she walks in the room he will immediately begin barking at her in a very unfriendly manner. She is fairly weak so she can't handle him physically (i.e. take him on walks, to the bathroom, etc....but she does do everything else for him). Sometimes he will be okay with her...but the odd time when he goes crazy with her out of no where...it is very concerning...I don't want my mom to be scared of him...and at this point I think she has good reason to be.

Second example, he does NOT like toddlers. I can't have him around any of my nieces and nephews because his behaviour indicates that he will hurt them. If I didn't have him on leash while they are over, I am certain that he would do them harm.

Right now someone came over and i went to open the door, holding Logan's leash. I had him sit while I opened the door, but as soon as the person walked in, Logan jumped and attempted to bite his hand...and the only reason he didn't hurt him was because my friend managed to pull his hand away. It was VERY embarrassing.

A lot of the time when he is very aggressive (it is not nipping, it is full on lunging at us and biting to actually do harm), it is very difficult to control. There was a point where I had to run into the room and close the door because I couldn't get him to stop attacking me. We've been told to yelp and leave the room...but he follows and at times will jump me from the back. We've been told to also try grabbing him from the scruff of his neck and holding his mouth closed firmly and saying No...but that doesn't really work either.

Sometimes it is because he has to go to the bathroom, and once I take him, he is settled. But a lot of the time I do not know the cause...especially when he has gone to the bathroom AND has recently eaten.

He is not ill, that we know of, bowels are good and constant. He eats well, sleeps well, and is exercised well.

We try to make sure we are "alpha" in every way...the only thing I can think is that I let him sleep on my bed because he refuses to sleep on the floor. If i tie him to the table with a long leash to keep him on the floor...he will bark at me aggressively.

Any ideas as to what to do? Is this normal behaviour?? It's pretty scary because at this point I can't leave him off leash at home when any guests are over, especially children. :cry:
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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by Booma » Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:19 am

Hmm he may be sensing that you and your family are scared and taking advantage of it, but I think you should consider calling a professional trainer to help you out.
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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by jyotin » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:24 am

We are having one come in sometime next week, so hopefully he will help. I really would like to know if this is a characteristic typical of the breed, and if anyone else has ever come across these issues with their Tam. It would be helpful to have some input so that I can inform my trainer with as much information as I can, especially from those of you who have experience these issues and have overcome them!
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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by jyotin » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:31 am

I found this article online...http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com ... t-dog.aspx
It seems really on par with our issue.
I recall reading on the forum that for walks, its 5 minutes per month, twice a day. SO right now he gets approx two, 25 min walks a day, or sometimes one 15 min walk and one 40 min walk on the days he's extra energized.

Could it be that he is just not exercised enough?
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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by MIKA » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:45 am

I also think you should develop this with a professional trainer. Certainly you will get lots of tips here in the forum, but you might be even more unsettling. Look at Cesar Millan on youtube and try to find a trainer who works about using this method. Try to understand, not that the dog is the problem, but we humans. If we can not provide clear guidance and above all quiet, the dog MUST take the lead. Be not confused.

Believe me, even Mika (3 months) is not easy. I found a trainer who loves Cesar Millan just like me. The first 2 years we will go the way together.
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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by arianwenarie » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:56 am

I would also seek the help of a professional behaviorist. But first, I'd like to ask a few questions: how old is Logan? What type of training equipment do you use on him as far as collars go? Can you get any videos of his behavior? You don't necessarily have to post it if you don't want to.

I'm an assistant trainer to a canine behavior specialist who has pretty much formed all of her techniques through observing pack behavior and understanding how dogs communicate with each other in the past 20 years. I've seen first hand that her methods are quick, to the point and the behavior change in the dog (for the better) is almost instant. Reason for this is because she understands what the dogs are saying and, in turn, communicate with them using their own language (body language) which is why we see such effective results. She doesn't use prong, shock or spray collars. Her specialty is aggression, by the way. :)

Anyway, if you could shoot some video and let me show her, I'm sure I can give you some advice, or even see if she's willing to do online behavior sessions with you and Logan. You did mention that at certain times, he won't stop jumping/mouthing you...? It may even be that he cannot "turn off", so to speak. Everyday, I see dogs in training sessions that get to such a high level of excitement that they cannot turn off and results in them redirecting that frustration in the form of aggression. Dogs don't know how to "turn off" once they reach that heightened state of excitement, so they need to be taught how to turn off. When a dog mouths you, people will tell you to yelp and then either walk away or otherwise, act boring. When you yelp, in the dog's mind, you have submitted - when pups are still with their mom, if a littermate yelps, that means the pup much said "I give up. Please leave me alone." The pup that got their littermate to yelp pretty much gained a bit of confidence as a bully.

You also mentioned grabbing him by the scruff and holding his muzzle and telling him "No". I can also say that I've read through many behavior consults and 75% of those people get physical with their dog. In a pack, dogs never get physical with each other such as grabbing by the scruff, pinning another dog down on their side, etc unless the "aggressor" is 1) a gamma and is looking for rank or 2) wants to kill the other dog. When a human pack member rolls a dog and/or spanks them, then in the dog's mind, the human is unstable. Our hands and feet are play and affection to them. When we use our hands to correct them while we're angry, we are frustrated but we're also playing...so which is it? This is very confusing to the dog. Dogs don't grab each other by the scruff of the neck. ;) As for holding his muzzle, it can not only restrict his airflow if you put enough pressure on the hold, it can also make him think he needs to get defensive towards you. Imagine if someone held your nose and covered your mouth so that you couldn't breathe freely because you were yelling at them - would you be panicked and trying to get the person to let go of you or would you just stand there and take it? I know I would fight back. ;)

As for dogs and children...I live with my sister and my niece and nephew are both under 10 years old. When it comes to my niece, nephew and my dog, Abby, I never allow her in the same room with the kids unsupervised. If the kids want to give her affection, she must lay down so the kids are at a higher level than her and the kids can only love on her if she is laying down. Once she gets up, the kids must stop petting her. No hugging allowed since the dog will see that as mounting - prime situation for a dog to correct the kid. ;)

Let Logan drag a regular 6 foot leash around the house so that you can control him without touch. If he tries to jump on your or mouth you, pick up the handle of the leash and hold him out at arm's length with enough slack that he can sit down when he relaxes. You want to hold him out at arm's length so that he can't assault you. If he tries to bite your hand that's holding the leash, pull up so that he can't reach your hand. Once he relaxes, you relax immediately. It's very important that you don't pick him up off his feet since you don't want to strangle him - some trainers will recommend that you do this, but high enough so that his front feet aren't touching the ground. This is what's called the "helicopter" method - it's pretty much choking the dog out and making the dog think that you have the power to kill him. That's not what we want here. We're just holding out the leash at arms length so that he can't assault you - don't look at him, don't touch him, don't talk to him. Act boring. I've never seen a dog throw a temper tantrum at the end of the leash for more than 45 seconds since their attention span isn't all that long and if you are more persistent than them and they give up, then the next challenge will be less time and soon, he'll get the concept that if he gets over-excited and does this craziness, then everything's boring. No fun.

When you're feeding him, does he wait for you to tell him to eat and/or give you eye contact before he's allowed to eat? If his feeding routine is him going to his crate, lie down, food goes down and he gets to eat then he's not truly working for you. A dog who truly works for his food is one who sits, waits for you to put the food bowl down, gives you eye contact (to ask permission to eat) and then only moves forward to eat once you allow him to.

As for the bed thing...yes, don't allow him ANY height - that's no furniture for him, no sleeping/sitting on beds (especially beds!). I'd recommend that until this aggression issue is resolved, don't allow him any height (yes, I'm getting repetitive. lol.) Tying him down to something overnight so that he doesn't get onto furniture (bed, couch, whatever) only elicits his flight/fight response - he panics because he's tied down and thinks there's no escape so his only option left is to fight. This is akin to the "abandonment theory" where a dog is tied to a tree and left there for some time - anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour (sometimes more) because the dog did something wrong. What that teaches the dog is that the humans will leave him/her in a situation where they have no choice but to fight if they are threatened. The dog must fend for himself because that's the only option left - the humans will not protect him, so he must do that himself to ensure his safety and survival. Does Logan have any room boundaries? You could probably shut the doors to the bedrooms during the day to limit him access to certain areas around the house...? I'd recommend not allowing Logan in your brother's room if only because it seems he's developing territorial aggression for just that room with your family.

Sorry, long post is very long... lol. Disclaimer: All information mentioned above is what I learned from the behavior specialist.

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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by jyotin » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:26 am

Thank you SO much everyone, and I don't mind the long posts they are very helpful =)

Logan is now 4.5 months old.

To clarify, we don't do any physical correction such as pinning him down or holding his mouth closed as I did read up on pack behaviours and how physical dominance is not characteristic of an alpha. And the yelping well...when it truly does hurt of course I'll make a sound because I can't help it lol...(he hasn't drawn blood yet thank god!) but I figured that method wasn't really helpful anyway.

For feeding time, basically what happens is I'll pick up his empty bowl, and go to get food, he will immediately on his own go to his crate and lie down in there...but when I put his bowl down he won't eat until I say "okay eat", and then he'll eat. When he is given any affection, he has to work for it first and be calm, he first has to sit, or go down, and we will then and only then pet him, belly rubs, etc. From everything I've gathered we've been doing that right...but there HAS to be something that we are not.

He always has a leash dragging on him so that we can easily "catch" him when he is being "bad" without having to chase him down in the house because he is too fast for us. He his not allowed to roam the house too often unless he has just gone to the bathroom, and is good and calm. Otherwise he is in the room with us, or goes back between rooms that people are in.

And for the bed thing, I just read that and made him get off of my bed lol! I put him on the ground, once I was on the bed, he attempted to climb back up (he can't climb all the way just yet without my help)...so I'd say No bed, and get him to lie down on the ground again...and he'd come back up...over and over until the 10th try he stopped and went to sleep on the ground...success? I hope lol.

Thanks so much for your help, I will try and catch some videos of him. I really am starting to think though that he needs more exercise for sure, and hopefully some training to figure out where our weaknesses are that he is managing to exploit are.
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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by Booma » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:08 am

Good luck, let us know how Everythin goes
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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by Rahne » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:39 am

You also mentioned grabbing him by the scruff and holding his muzzle and telling him "No". I can also say that I've read through many behavior consults and 75% of those people get physical with their dog. In a pack, dogs never get physical with each other such as grabbing by the scruff, pinning another dog down on their side, etc unless the "aggressor" is 1) a gamma and is looking for rank or 2) wants to kill the other dog. When a human pack member rolls a dog and/or spanks them, then in the dog's mind, the human is unstable. Our hands and feet are play and affection to them. When we use our hands to correct them while we're angry, we are frustrated but we're also playing...so which is it? This is very confusing to the dog. Dogs don't grab each other by the scruff of the neck. As for holding his muzzle, it can not only restrict his airflow if you put enough pressure on the hold, it can also make him think he needs to get defensive towards you. Imagine if someone held your nose and covered your mouth so that you couldn't breathe freely because you were yelling at them - would you be panicked and trying to get the person to let go of you or would you just stand there and take it? I know I would fight back.

I don't really agree with this part.. Konah WILL actually put her muzzle over other dogs (mostly young 'submissive' dogs) their muzzle to let them know she is the boss. I've seen this with some other dogs (mostly arctic breeds and wolfdogs) and wolves aswell. I've used this method myself with Konah when she was a pup, if she was being nippy (biting my hands etc) and after telling her a few times 'no' I would put my hand over her muzzle firmly and squeeze it a bit. She didn't like it and would start to whimper, then I would remove my hand right away and she would then act submissive, licking my hand and face. It worked very well with her and the nipping stopped. Dogs and wolves do get physical with eachother. Konah will correct my staffy if she shows unwanted behaviour (like attacking the vacuum cleaner :mrgreen:)

http://woofandwordpress.com/blog/?p=266

Just like other behaviours they can mean different things in different situations. I think it's important to always stay calm, don't get frustrated. If you do something then you must mean it, don't correct the dog when you are not sure about it. The dog will sense it right away and could decide to 'fight back'. I think one of the biggest issues in this story is that the owner is scared of her dog!

If you think Logan doesn't get enough exercise then try some mental exercise. Do tracking games with him so he can use his nose, get him a Kong (or similar toys) that can keep him busy for a while. Nina Ottosson games are also great!

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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by Katlin » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:32 am

Rahne wrote:
You also mentioned grabbing him by the scruff and holding his muzzle and telling him "No". I can also say that I've read through many behavior consults and 75% of those people get physical with their dog. In a pack, dogs never get physical with each other such as grabbing by the scruff, pinning another dog down on their side, etc unless the "aggressor" is 1) a gamma and is looking for rank or 2) wants to kill the other dog. When a human pack member rolls a dog and/or spanks them, then in the dog's mind, the human is unstable. Our hands and feet are play and affection to them. When we use our hands to correct them while we're angry, we are frustrated but we're also playing...so which is it? This is very confusing to the dog. Dogs don't grab each other by the scruff of the neck. As for holding his muzzle, it can not only restrict his airflow if you put enough pressure on the hold, it can also make him think he needs to get defensive towards you. Imagine if someone held your nose and covered your mouth so that you couldn't breathe freely because you were yelling at them - would you be panicked and trying to get the person to let go of you or would you just stand there and take it? I know I would fight back.

I don't really agree with this part.. Konah WILL actually put her muzzle over other dogs (mostly young 'submissive' dogs) their muzzle to let them know she is the boss. I've seen this with some other dogs (mostly arctic breeds and wolfdogs) and wolves aswell. I've used this method myself with Konah when she was a pup, if she was being nippy (biting my hands etc) and after telling her a few times 'no' I would put my hand over her muzzle firmly and squeeze it a bit. She didn't like it and would start to whimper, then I would remove my hand right away and she would then act submissive, licking my hand and face. It worked very well with her and the nipping stopped. Dogs and wolves do get physical with eachother. Konah will correct my staffy if she shows unwanted behaviour (like attacking the vacuum cleaner :mrgreen:)
Yes Snoopy was the same, no he's not a large dog or a tamaskan but we went from being bitten (drawing blood 4/10 times) almost twice per week...to not a single accident in almost a year. My mom was in charge of Snoopy's training and all she did for punishment was Nooo Snoopy. After he bit my dad once dad flung him off the couch my his scruff and scooted him out the door with his foot. Snoopy sulked for days after that but would follow my dad everywhere, constantly looking for his approval.

When Snoopy turned two (after having my lip bitten clean through for leaning over him when he was siting beside me) I knew we had a seriously unstable dog. He would attack anything that clicked, shadows, FEET, and spots of light. I learned the pack dominance method from a friend and starting using it consistently on Snoopy. If he was possessive (like his food) I would sit there with a shoe on and put my foot beside the bowl and waited until he would eat. I would often put my hand around his muzzle when he attacks shadows and give him a deep and sorta loud NO. He would stop immediately and lick my hand saying "sorry sorry!". If he is very bad and tries to bite I grab his scruff and that is when he realizes he's been very bad. He will head straight off to his kennel and watch me for about 10-15 minutes then come out and look at me like "we good?".

Snoopy still has a thing for my sister's feet, often chasing them and then submitting (flipping on his back) and licking them. He has become my dog 100%, he follows me everywhere, constantly looking for approval (getting a toy and putting it away, then leading me to it, sitting, and cocking his head to the side). As soon as I snap my fingers or say Heeeey (sounds like haaaaay) then he will immediately walk in exact step with me. He loves most small dogs and is getting better with kids. He's still a brat around my mom but she refuses to scruff him saying it's mean.

Either way I do think that wolves use the scruffing to place eachother as I've watched coyote packs do thing exact thing. And they do it HARD! They will grab and yank / twist if a pup does something wrong. Snoopy also does it with his friends (and they do it back) when they are fighting for attention from the owners.

Personally I do think the pack method works.

As for Logan, I'm sorry you're having so much trouble. Sounds like it's quite scary. People don't realize how much a bite hurts until it happens, having being bitten many times myself I know it's horrifying. From what I've read I think a professional is the only way to go at this point. I do agree that because you are scared of him he picks up on it. It's hard for us to say be dominant when we aren't the ones being snapped at but it's something that may help your problem. Standing your ground and giving a firm STOP or NO.

He may also be bored? Walks aren't always enough :) I agree with Rahne, Kongs are lifesavers (stuff 'em with peanut butter and cookies and throw them in the freezer).

As for Ceasar Milan...well TBH I don't like him. They don't show it but he gets bitten constantly. I saw him make a dog pass out with a martingale collar. I've also seen him use a prong collar on a retractable leash several times. He's contradictory and I just don't agree with him. Sorry but that's my opinion.
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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by TerriHolt » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:36 am

i must say when sam was nippy i also said "no no no no" so he got the idea of the word and if he continued i would squeeze his nose, not hard but it did make him yelp and then he would be all licky. int he end he got it with no because he didn't want the squeeze :lol:

i'm just guessing but to start off with, at 4.5 month old he will have been testing pack rank and as soon as he "smelled" the fear or the reaction he was causing he has a result and causing your fear, he doesn't see you as pack leader. nothing more to add from the essay above :P but the most important note to make is to abolish the fear. (i think was already mentioned by arianwenarie :oops: :D )

my partner used to be scared of sam and he ignored (well, said i can't) everything i told him so sam ended up ruling him, jumping up, biting but when he started listening to me and, even if he felt it, didn't show the fear in anyway. he is still working up the pack ranks with him but he's getting there :mrgreen:

i took sam for longer walks than i should have done because he had extra energy. we used to be out for hours (not walking all the time before anyone thinks i'm mean :lol: ) . we would just walk and sit, walk and sit. i was once sat on a curb waiting till sam wanted to walk again that long that a little old lady brought me a cup of tea :lol:

i know you work and don't have time for all that but maybe a little longer walks may help? not saying it will but he could get too tired to do anything and use that time for good boy time with sweeties (treats) and nothing at all in his bad boy time but the cold shoulder...

a pro is the way to go at this point and maybe should have happened before he got so confident in his "outbursts" but i know you said you have got in touch with 1 for next week.

Ceasar Milan isn't so much as contradictory but what he said to do for 1 dog may not work the same way for the next and may need something he said not to do for that paticualr dog. thats why they say to always ask a pro to make sure the method you are planning to copy won't make things worse. victoria stilwell is also pretty good. he doessn't condone using prong collars. i don't like his use of dominance but some of it works and some doesn't. and if it's the video clip going round that i saw, there had been some edditing because i saw it posted witht he original... if he did work that way, his own dogs would show more fear than they do i would think.
IDK but what i don't like most is his way of thinking "a dog is just that, a dog and should be treat as such" because to someone like most of us, out dog, cat, whatever is our fur babys :lol: . but at the same time need the level of training to keep the boundries clear.
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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by susann » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:05 pm

I haven't read all of the answers above so someone might alreay suggested this.. but maybe he is pain in some way? Maybe a vet should look at him too?

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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by arianwenarie » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:47 am

Rahne wrote:
You also mentioned grabbing him by the scruff and holding his muzzle and telling him "No". I can also say that I've read through many behavior consults and 75% of those people get physical with their dog. In a pack, dogs never get physical with each other such as grabbing by the scruff, pinning another dog down on their side, etc unless the "aggressor" is 1) a gamma and is looking for rank or 2) wants to kill the other dog. When a human pack member rolls a dog and/or spanks them, then in the dog's mind, the human is unstable. Our hands and feet are play and affection to them. When we use our hands to correct them while we're angry, we are frustrated but we're also playing...so which is it? This is very confusing to the dog. Dogs don't grab each other by the scruff of the neck. As for holding his muzzle, it can not only restrict his airflow if you put enough pressure on the hold, it can also make him think he needs to get defensive towards you. Imagine if someone held your nose and covered your mouth so that you couldn't breathe freely because you were yelling at them - would you be panicked and trying to get the person to let go of you or would you just stand there and take it? I know I would fight back.

I don't really agree with this part.. Konah WILL actually put her muzzle over other dogs (mostly young 'submissive' dogs) their muzzle to let them know she is the boss. I've seen this with some other dogs (mostly arctic breeds and wolfdogs) and wolves aswell. I've used this method myself with Konah when she was a pup, if she was being nippy (biting my hands etc) and after telling her a few times 'no' I would put my hand over her muzzle firmly and squeeze it a bit. She didn't like it and would start to whimper, then I would remove my hand right away and she would then act submissive, licking my hand and face. It worked very well with her and the nipping stopped. Dogs and wolves do get physical with eachother. Konah will correct my staffy if she shows unwanted behaviour (like attacking the vacuum cleaner :mrgreen:)

http://woofandwordpress.com/blog/?p=266

Just like other behaviours they can mean different things in different situations. I think it's important to always stay calm, don't get frustrated. If you do something then you must mean it, don't correct the dog when you are not sure about it. The dog will sense it right away and could decide to 'fight back'. I think one of the biggest issues in this story is that the owner is scared of her dog!

If you think Logan doesn't get enough exercise then try some mental exercise. Do tracking games with him so he can use his nose, get him a Kong (or similar toys) that can keep him busy for a while. Nina Ottosson games are also great!
In the training world, it's whatever you feel most comfortable with and what works. ;) I've just been taught never to get physical with a dog and to use training equipment available to me instead. I've seen numerous leash corrections (do not attempt!!) for rude, mouthy behavior and also aggressive behavior. It's pretty much jerking the leash at a downwards angle to catch the dog off balance - not for a puppy under 6 months old, definitely. I see leash corrections on dogs 1 year+ and not necessarily on particular breeds..though, I have yet to see a leash correction being done on an arctic breed.

If a handler is unsure and hesitates in the slightest when giving a command or correction, the dog will immediately know that they don't mean it. lol. And getting over the fear of being bitten is pretty difficult - I'm still getting over this myself. The more I learn about reading body language, sometimes, the more nervous I get because I know what some of the cues will result in. Very hard to stay calm in those situations. :lol:

And I LOVE the Nina Ottosson games! But it's difficult for me to teach my dog...she's not as bright as I think she is. Haha. I also like having my dog do doggy-push ups - 3 sets of sit and down. Very helpful when I'm too lazy to take her out on a walk...15 minutes of doggy push ups with 10-15 seconds rest between each set and she passes out for a few hours! But then again, she's a pretty laid back yellow lab. XD

As for the bed thing, I'm proud of you for not giving up!! :D You may have to remind him from time to time, but as long as you're consistent with it like all other training, then he'll understand eventually. Just remember dogs are opportunistic...when your back is turned, they may go and try something they know they're not supposed to do..like, run upstairs when the stairs are off limits. (My dog did that when I wasn't looking one day...didn't get a chance to correct her because she was already upstairs. :p)

EDIT:
I just re-read what I posted and thought about it only to find that yes, Rahne, you're right. Dogs DO get physical with each other. What I had meant to say is that a calm confident alpha won't need to give physical corrections to his/her own pack members because he/she has no need to - the dog is confident in their rank and doesn't need to resort to physical means. The gamma in the pack will always try to challenge for rank. In the dog park, you may notice a small group of dogs who are engaging in dominance play (grabbing skin and holding, mouthing other dogs' ears/mouth, grabbing other dogs' collars and/or pinning them down, etc) - these dogs are trying to figure out who's the boss. Sometimes, very rarely though, you may even see a dog walk in between two dogs who are about to engage in play and/or dogs already in play. Once he/she walks through, those dogs stop playing momentarily and may or may not re-engage in play. The dog that walked through is the calm, confident, stable dog there...he/she got the rowdy dogs to stop what they're doing by merely walking in between them. At the kennels I work at, I walk through dogs all the time during playtimes and it's very interesting to see the rude dogs go "oh, sorry. yea, that wasn't worth it." and walk away. One of my favorite dogs at work is a collie mix, Dylan, who will follow me around the yard like a shadow because he knows I will protect him from any dogs that rush up to him - he always stands behind me if there's another dog rushing us. His owners say he's dog aggressive and very unpredictable with other dogs - not so much; his owners just aren't protecting him from other dogs who approach him rudely so he must defend himself.

I personally don't go to dog parks with my dog (not a Tam) because I'm afraid I won't be able to protect her from rude dogs...our first experience was also very bad - one of the other owners went to grab my leash from my hand to let my dog off-leash so that his dog could, essentially, dominate my dog saying that Abby wants to play but can't because I'm not letting her. Not cool. :( i find it much easier for me to get together with my neighbors and go on "pack walks". Abby is also a lot more focused on me because she knows she can't be rude to the other dogs. Haha.

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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by Tarheel » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:48 pm

Jyotin,
First let me answer your questions about behavior. No, this is not normal behavior for a Tamaskan. I have never seen agression towards people in any Tamaskan I have seen let alone a puppy.

With a 4.5 month old Tamaskan, I would guess his weight to be less than 50 pounds. Not too much even for 10 year old child to handle on a leash. I think much of your problem might be that people in your house express fear and the Logan is picking up on this. This is giving him an opportunity to move up in the pack through intimidation of the weaker pack members. Naturally, once he istablish pack dominance over other people in the house, small children and toddlers will not be welcomed by him.

Have you contacted your breeder for any guidance yet? I know you posted your problems and concerns on the forum, but your breeder should be your first step when you think you may have a problem with your puppy.

Have you ever taken a dog to obediance class? If you have not, you probably are not aware of some of the training mistakes you are making that is leading to this behavior. It is very difficult to give you advise over the Internet without seeing what Logans home routine actually is.

From reading your post, I understand you have a crate. What are you using the crate for, if it is not for Logan to sleep in at night? I read he goes in the crate to wait for his food. This tells me he does not have a fear of his crate. Is Logan left alone for extended periods of time, and if so, where is he left alone at?

Just a few things that caught my attention.

1) Do NOT have your dog work for affection. Affection should be given freely without having to work for it. When working on commands such as Sit, Down, Stay, Come, Heel, use a treat that Logan likes and follow this up with pleanty of praise and petting.

2) Use your leash for training and walking only. It is dangerous to have a leash attached to the dog running freely throughout the house. The leash could easliy get snagged on something causing the dog to be jerked to a complete stop while at full run. Logan should associate the Leash with Treats and praise and to know he is working or being trained.

3) Use your crate for Logans bed time, and other times when he needs to be by himself. Dogs need a place of their own that they can take ownership in. It sounds like Logan has already taken ownership of your sons bedroom. Break this habit by giving Logan his own place. This can also be used for when guests come over. You can easlity train Logan to go to his crate upon hearing the doorbell. If Logan is getting excited and is jumping, nipping, biting, place him in the crate until he settles down. have guests walk by him while in the crate and great him. Once Logan is calm enough, you can let him out to meet the guests. If he starts acting up, place him back in the crate. He will learn he needs to be calm to meet people and get affection.

4) Get Logan in obedience classes as soon as possible.

5) For bad behavior, give a sharp stern NO, to interupt the behavior. Get Logan to concentrate on you and give him commands that he can follow such as Sit, Down or Crate. Then reward the good behavior. This hopefully will break the unwanted behavior and get him to focus on good behavior.

6) Lastly, DO NOT FEAR YOUR DOG! He will pick up on this and use it to run your pack. Running from you dog is never good, it shows your weakness and it leads to chase. Face your dog and your your dominate voice and manners to put him back in his place.


I am not a dog behavior specialist and others may disagree with what I write, but through my experience, this has worked for me. Write me privately if you would like any more training tips.
John Bannow
Tarheel Tamaskan
Committee of Breeders

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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by TeresaC » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:07 am

PLEASE seek a professional behaviorist. This is not normal behavior for this breed or this age. Dogs at this age have not begun to go through the adolescence stage (approximately 9 - 18 months) which is similar to the teenage years in humans. During this time, many dogs go through a phase of challenging authority or trying to find independence. You will want to get some help before this happens!!

There are many differing opinions and I think much of it depends on the individual dog and how much comfort you and your family have with the dog. I work with dog behaviorists and have had the please to work with Dr. Patricia McConnell. There is no way to observe the dog or truly know what is taking place without having an experienced eye watch the behavior and interactions with the family.

I agree with the post that it sounds as if your pup is struggling to learn to control his impulses and needs to be taught to "settle" himself. A good behaviorist will be able to create some excersices specifically for you.

If you are looking for some books or other resources, let me know. I love to read and can give you some suggestions.

Good luck!!
Teresa Cutler
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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by Taz » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:11 pm

Hope you manage to get this sorted, it really doesn't sound like normal behaviour. I'd stay away from trainers/behaviourists who use "lion tamer syndrome" style training methods.

I'd also take the rank reduction/dominance theory lark with a pinch of salt. Believe it or not, dogs display behaviours for more reasons than just to get one over on us and others.

As someone once said, (though I can't remember the exact words) if it was all about dominance over their fellow dogs and man, then guide dogs would rule the world, after all, they lead. :lol:
"Don't underestimate me.
I know more than I say.
Think more than I speak.
And notice more than you realize".
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But you are not free
From the consequence of
Your choice "

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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by jyotin » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:32 pm

As odd as this is...he randomly just STOPPED being bad. He's so gentle and loving and affectionate now...never scares us at all. I wonder if it had to do with him teething and being in pain because of that...his teeth are all mostly in now and I have noticed a HUGE change. Very curious.
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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by JulieSmith » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:37 pm

jyotin wrote:As odd as this is...he randomly just STOPPED being bad. He's so gentle and loving and affectionate now...never scares us at all. I wonder if it had to do with him teething and being in pain because of that...his teeth are all mostly in now and I have noticed a HUGE change. Very curious.
That is good news. It could be a combination of teeth and you making some small change in what you do. You will probably never know.

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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by arianwenarie » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:27 am

jyotin wrote:As odd as this is...he randomly just STOPPED being bad. He's so gentle and loving and affectionate now...never scares us at all. I wonder if it had to do with him teething and being in pain because of that...his teeth are all mostly in now and I have noticed a HUGE change. Very curious.
Regardless, that's great news. :) Glad to hear all's well.

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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:52 am

good to hear all is well with you and logan :P ... random but good :D
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One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

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Re: Obedience issue.

Post by soph » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:22 pm

We are having a few problems with Dylan, he can be a very bossy and sometimes just doesn't listen to anything we say, he sometimes jumps at people when we are out walking and seems to be very wary of children we have taken him to parks where there has always been little children since a very early age, we can't let him off lead because he seems to be unpredictable, We took him to puppy classes and he passed with flying colours he just seemed to change, We are getting help from a trainer who is confident that he can help us, we are also going to start agility with him and we are going to start training for his good citizen award, but we wondered if anyone could give us any advice as to what else we could do, He is coming up to 1year old, Thank you in advance

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