The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Sun May 29, 2011 12:25 pm

It would be lovely to have the yellow eyes on Winni *sigh*
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Sun May 29, 2011 2:25 pm

blufawn wrote:It would be lovely to have the yellow eyes on Winni *sigh*
Winni x Akim! :D

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Sun May 29, 2011 2:47 pm

Rahne wrote:
blufawn wrote:It would be lovely to have the yellow eyes on Winni *sigh*
Winni x Akim! :D
LIKE!
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Gaby » Sun May 29, 2011 2:49 pm

Akim is one of the prettiest and impressive Tamaskans I've seen! That would be great! The coat of Akim was a bit short, together with Winni that must give some better coats, and then the yellow eyes of Akim... Wow, that must be pretty! But I think Akim is almost three times as heavy as Winni, is that possible, such a combination with so much difference in size?

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Sun May 29, 2011 2:51 pm

Gaby wrote:Akim is one of the prettiest and impressive Tamaskans I've seen! That would be great! The coat of Akim was a bit short, together with Winni that must give some better coats, and then the yellow eyes of Akim... Wow, that must be pretty! But I think Akim is almost three times as heavy as Winni, is that possible, such a combination with so much difference in size?
Winnie isn't more than a year by now is she?
She will grow more right?


I really do Love Akim too, I'm hoping to get a pup from him somewhere in the future..
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Gaby » Sun May 29, 2011 2:56 pm

Nino wrote:
Gaby wrote:Akim is one of the prettiest and impressive Tamaskans I've seen! That would be great! The coat of Akim was a bit short, together with Winni that must give some better coats, and then the yellow eyes of Akim... Wow, that must be pretty! But I think Akim is almost three times as heavy as Winni, is that possible, such a combination with so much difference in size?
Winnie isn't more than a year by now is she?
She will grow more right?


I really do Love Akim too, I'm hoping to get a pup from him somewhere in the future..
I believe Winni is a year and a week or two? Something like that. She will grow more, but if you compare her to Akim, who is huge(!) there is a really big difference in size.

Edit: So it's not that Winni is small, but more that Akim is very, very big. ;)

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Sun May 29, 2011 3:09 pm

Well Vixen and Jasper got pups..

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by GjenetCarro » Sun May 29, 2011 4:34 pm

Rahne wrote:Well Vixen and Jasper got pups..
*Correction*
They got Amazing, Beautiful, Unique Pups :D
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Sun May 29, 2011 9:54 pm

GjenetCarro wrote:*Correction*
They got Amazing, Beautiful, Unique Pups :D
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I think Winni is a bit larger than Vixen (though Vixen seems chunkier and Winni seems more slim), but I also think Akim is quite a bit larger (heavier) than Jasper. Probably a good idea would be Winni x Rann and then a daughter from that mating x Akim - it depends who has the better tail (Rann or Akim or Diesel?) and who would produce good / solid coloring. The yellow eyes would be great... but that's just a small detail compared to the overall picture. ;)
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Mon May 30, 2011 11:41 am

Winni is 1 year and 1 week tomorrow. I dont think she will grow any more in height.
As Debby said she is larger than Vixen, but Akim is larger than Jasper.
As Akim is on mainland Europe (sorry I forget where) I would have to have Winni on a pets passport, something that I havent done yet so it is likely that her first litter at least will be with a UK male.
I would liked to have used a Rann x Tums pup but none have been health tested yet, Ollie is another option, being a Dallas pup as is Rann.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Mon May 30, 2011 11:56 am

blufawn wrote:I would liked to have used a Rann x Tums pup but none have been health tested yet, Ollie is another option, being a Dallas pup as is Rann.
hopefully some of the Rann X Tumanra pups will get tested soon!
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Mon May 30, 2011 12:36 pm

Akim is in Germany. I don't think he is much bigger then Jasper actually. Nanuq is much bigger, Avak and Jaeger are also very big but I think Akim is the smallest male from the Muensterland litter.
Sylvaen wrote:
blufawn wrote:I would liked to have used a Rann x Tums pup but none have been health tested yet, Ollie is another option, being a Dallas pup as is Rann.
hopefully some of the Rann X Tumanra pups will get tested soon!
Yes that would be nice!

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:59 am

blufawn wrote:Yes, it has to be possible, its just finding the right combination. Although I wouldnt consider Nanuq a black grey, but Akim is.
Question, when you guys are saying black grey you guys mean Black Phase yes? Can I ask how Akim would be considered Black Grey if this is the case? Akim, as beautiful as he is, has a lot of white on him so I wouldn't think Black Grey so much as Dark Black and white.

Chives is definitely Black Phase, but Nanuq and Akim remind me a lot of each other so I would think both were dark grey/white.

Here a photos a friend posted on another forum (she is is a wolfdog person and has a Black Phase), she also has a friend with a black phase that looks EXACTLY like Chives which is why I ask why Akim would be considered Black Phase.

Here is the friend of a friend's mid content:
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:48 pm

No with black-grey we don't mean black phase ;) We don't have black phase Tamaskan (I hope we do in the future!) although Winni comes close to that :)

At the moment the black-grey is still very rare, I think there are about 8 now and most are related. If we have more in the future we might be able to select on the color and 'breed out' the white slowly so they would start looking more like black phase wolves.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:00 pm

Okie doke understandable :)
I was just kind of sitting here going huhhh? Lol

It would be nice whenever the color occurs frequently in the breed. That would be a unique site to see, wish I knew genetics so I could understand how it all works!
Katurah

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Blustag » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:24 pm

Your pics are lovely and it would be nice to get this colour in our Tamaskan especially with the yellow eyes. At the moment we only have Tumanra and Rann which produced the entire black/grey litter of which we only have Dallas being bred from. Her brother Diesel will hopefully be used in the near future all health testing being good. The only other black/grey is Winnie/Chives. Would be lovely to put her to Diesel. Akim and Nanuq although dark do have a lot of white on them so not quite in the same bracket as the likes of Winnie and Tumanra etc whose black is 'blended' and not defined as it should be.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Hiwatari » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:29 pm

I would love to get a Tamaskan that looks like that. As I love black/dark colors in my pets (Kai being an exception to that, being a rescue who is staying). But I know it will take more then one out crossing to get them like this and heath is more important. Akira has gone in for her x-rays and we're now waiting on the scores to come in.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:37 pm

Blustag wrote:Your pics are lovely and it would be nice to get this colour in our Tamaskan especially with the yellow eyes. At the moment we only have Tumanra and Rann which produced the entire black/grey litter of which we only have Dallas being bred from. Her brother Diesel will hopefully be used in the near future all health testing being good. The only other black/grey is Winnie/Chives. Would be lovely to put her to Diesel. Akim and Nanuq although dark do have a lot of white on them so not quite in the same bracket as the likes of Winnie and Tumanra etc whose black is 'blended' and not defined as it should be.
Thanks for explaining! I'll definitely be watching this breed to see what you guys can come up with, so far you have ALL done a wonderful job :)
Katurah

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by wolfwannabe » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:53 pm

229699_104316789656071_100002332516711_41234_1165741_n.jpg
Winni 034.jpg
Wow the resemblance is remarkable. :D don't you think?
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:06 pm

I had to double take a couple of times cause I thought they were one and the same... hehe thats amazing :)

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by wolfwannabe » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:10 pm

AZDehlin wrote:I had to double take a couple of times cause I thought they were one and the same... hehe thats amazing :)
I know they could have come from the same litter, which is amazing considering one is a mid content wolfdog and the other is Winni with no wolf content, I guess Tamaskans are definitly heading in the right direction :D
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:11 pm

They even have that white back toe that almost had me convinced they were the same. Very happy the direction the breed is going.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:20 pm

AZDehlin wrote:They even have that white back toe that almost had me convinced they were the same. Very happy the direction the breed is going.
Lol that is the first thing I thought with those pictures side by side (or up and down, whatever :p) that they have that toe thing! I can tell Winni has a bit more dog to her though (which is expected) but a very nice example that could be the future of the breed.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by JulieSmith » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:20 pm

Definitely going in the right direction for all colours, but especially the black, though I must admit I prefer the paler ones more.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Valravn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:19 am

I really like the look of black sable GSDs. Would the TDR consider breeding to a black sable GSD to try improving the black gray Tamaskan?

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:21 am

I know there was a british utonagan litter were they used a german shepherd as outcross, they used a long-haired solid black german shepherd on a utonagan bitch. The father seems more show type (with the sloped back).

Mother:
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Father:
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Pups (All black):
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Pups older:
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:11 am

If outcrossing to a black-sable (or solid black) GSD I would very seriously consider taking one..
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:17 am

JulieSmith wrote:Definitely going in the right direction for all colours, but especially the black, though I must admit I prefer the paler ones more.
i prefer the paler ones too, except when it comes to winni. i'd love one with her colour.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by JulieSmith » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:41 am

TerriHolt wrote:
JulieSmith wrote:Definitely going in the right direction for all colours, but especially the black, though I must admit I prefer the paler ones more.
i prefer the paler ones too, except when it comes to winni. i'd love one with her colour.
I know what you mean Winni is lovely I fell in love with her at the show, her photos don't do her justice.

Love the black GSD x utongan. I could be converted to black with that look.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:23 am

ha, yeah. i like that one too. i'd have one and i'll call it onyx :D (or something to that effect :lol: ).
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The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Blustag » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:50 am

Sorry to disappoint folks but I dont like that look at all of the Utonagan crossed with the GSD. Not only that but you would bring the larger ears back, heavier head, lose that lovely fine wolfy look not to mention that the GSD has black and gold colours in its heritage and GSD masking which is not what we want. You have to look at the larger picture and what the future litters would look like. Also I dont like a solid colour. If you look at the likes of Winni there is no comparision with this cross litter :D

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:04 am

I think with the black greys it would be nice if we could attempt to breed out the white on the chest (which is also seen in the Ute x GSD litter) but with our black grey lines being so few at the moment all we can hope to do is create more that look like Winnie)
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

Rahne

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:07 am

Blustag wrote:Sorry to disappoint folks but I dont like that look at all of the Utonagan crossed with the GSD. Not only that but you would bring the larger ears back, heavier head, lose that lovely fine wolfy look not to mention that the GSD has black and gold colours in its heritage and GSD masking which is not what we want. You have to look at the larger picture and what the future litters would look like. Also I dont like a solid colour. If you look at the likes of Winni there is no comparision with this cross litter :D
hmm, and what about a belgian shepherd (Groenendael)?
They're finer build, long legs, long muzzle and slight stop, smaller ears, straight back..

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:11 am

I always joke that Winnie looks like a Belgian Shepherd, she has the same type of coat I think.....
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Blustag » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:21 pm

Funnily enough I did think about this quite some time back. As you know I specialised for years in both the German Shepherd and the Belgian Shepherd dogs making up several Champions in the breed so I do know both breeds very well. I would not use a GSD at all in our bloodlines and had even thought of the Belgian Tervueren....BUT... they are having increasing health issues now (I am still intouch with the Belgian experts) and I wouldnt want to bring any health issues to our breed. Not only the health issues in both Groen and Terv but also temperament issues. This is mainly due to the large influx of continental types when the barriers for quarantine came down and was replaced with the Pet's Passport. The GSD also has a lot of health issues as we are all well aware of.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:13 pm

On the internet I could find they might have hip problems (HD) and some lines can have epilepsy. Is there any more? These issues are found in every breed and also in cross breeds. I presume you had the belgians for show? Do you also know the working lines?

I know one Groenendael that trains at my dogschool and he is a very nice dog. He comes from a kennel that breeds them for work (Schutzhund, Agility, Search&Rescue etc.) so they select on temperament and health and not looks. I think he even looks better because he doesn't have such a huge fluffy coat that you see at the shows ;)

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Blustag » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:19 pm

All my Belgians and German Shepherds were all show dogs and working dogs. I competed with them at the Breed shows and also not only obedience but agility and working trials doing the same work that the Police dogs do... search, track, manwork etc. It was vital that they were all in good health and with good hips. There are many issues with both breeds now. I am leaving soon for Europe so can discuss it further with you there :D

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:20 pm

Blustag wrote:Sorry to disappoint folks but I dont like that look at all of the Utonagan crossed with the GSD.
Me neither. The GSD influence is far too strong. They clearly 'look' like GSDs, not like Tamaskan - and the sloping back is a big 'no way' for me. Rahne's suggestion to use a Groenendael is a good one but, personally, I think using a Groenendael x husky / arctic breed mix would be better. It's very important for people to keep in mind that, first and foremost, the Tamaskan is an ARCTIC BREED and we don't want to loose the working ability by adding in too much Shepherd content. After all, that is one thing that truly separates the Tamaskan from other 'wolfdog' / wolf-lookalike breeds... after all, the Saarloos and the Czech both belong to FCI Group 1 (herding / shepherd group) while the Tamaskan will belong to FCI Group 5 (Spitz / primitive group) along with all the other arctic breeds: husky / malamute / samoyed / etc, which is where the breed belongs. If too much Shepherd content is added, simply for the sake of color, we will fundamentally undermine (and lose sight) of the breed's foundations and purpose... and make it much harder to ever be officially recognized (one day in the future).
Rahne wrote:I know one Groenendael that trains at my dogschool and he is a very nice dog. He comes from a kennel that breeds them for work (Schutzhund, Agility, Search&Rescue etc.) so they select on temperament and health and not looks. I think he even looks better because he doesn't have such a huge fluffy coat that you see at the shows ;)
Is he entire? Fully health-tested? Perhaps Lynn can visit him during her day in the Netherlands? Then we can discuss at the show if he might be a suitable out-cross to one of the Tamaskan's more husky-ish bloodlines or a foundation dog. It would require a lot of discussion though, we'll talk about it more at the show.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:26 pm

Umm how would you loose the working ability by adding in shepherd? Shepherds usually have much more 'will to please' then the Husky's who are very independent.

I don't think it's a good idea either to add in too much shepherd so I would suggest a one-time only outcross then to a 'stable and healthy' Tamaskan, one who has a strong influence on the pups ;)
Sylvaen wrote:
Rahne wrote:I know one Groenendael that trains at my dogschool and he is a very nice dog. He comes from a kennel that breeds them for work (Schutzhund, Agility, Search&Rescue etc.) so they select on temperament and health and not looks. I think he even looks better because he doesn't have such a huge fluffy coat that you see at the shows ;)
Is he entire? Fully health-tested? Perhaps Lynn can visit him during her day in the Netherlands? Then we can discuss at the show if he might be a suitable out-cross to one of the Tamaskan's more husky-ish bloodlines or a foundation dog. It would require a lot of discussion though, we'll talk about it more at the show.
I don't know if he's entire. I can ask about it next time when I go to the dog school but it won't be before the show. Yes we can discuss it further at the show :)

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:34 pm

I think she means working ability as in the desire to pull, GSD have a working abilty but just a different type..

It would not hurt to allow a single use of a dog at stud with all pups sold with restrictions with one or two kept for breeding by trustworthy individuals, but I would not like to see a Belgian become a foundation dog for our breed and along with Lynn I would not like to see ANY GSD added, I frown upon the Utes and NI who look just like GSD, right down to the colouring.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:40 pm

Rahne wrote:Umm how would you loose the working ability by adding in shepherd? Shepherds usually have much more 'will to please' then the Husky's who are very independent.
I'm not talking about the Shepherd working ability. I'm talking about the Husky working ability... they are totally different. You don't see many shepherds pulling sleds in freezing conditions... ;)

The husky's independence is vital to their survival in arctic conditions (Finland / Alaska / etc) - if they always obeyed their master, over their own instinct, many a dog-team would have been lost in frozen waters when the ice was not thick enough to cross. It is precisely because huskies ARE more independent / free-thinking that makes them so suited to their purpose; this comes as a result of adaptation and evolution. They have to know when to disobey their master, to save him and their teammates / sled if (for instance) they KNOW the ice is too thin.. they have to trust their instinct OVER their master's command to go forward.

A shepherd doesn't function in the same way... they have been trained to do EXACTLY what their master tells them 'no questions asked' even if they don't quite understand why. It is a fundamental difference in breed psychology. Of course, a little bit of Shepherd content is a good thing: we don't want pure huskies with the drive to RUN and the NEED to pull - so strong that they can't be off-leash and are far too high-energy for regular family homes. Plus, the husky independence has been muted a bit (so the Tamaskan can be more easily trained) but it's important not to loose sight of the breed's roots; the Tamaskan should still be willing and able to pull sleds in cold conditions. It DOES have working ability, just not the same type of working ability as shepherds...

IMHO: the Tamaskan's versatility level at present is ideal, it can be suited to many different activities without any major weaknesses in those areas. Of course, a specialized breed will be more suited to each specific activity while a multi-purpose breed will be just 'ok' in many areas.
blufawn wrote:I think she means working ability as in the desire to pull, GSD have a working abilty but just a different type..
Precisely. :)
blufawn wrote:It would not hurt to allow a single use of a dog at stud with all pups sold with restrictions with one or two kept for breeding by trustworthy individuals, but I would not like to see a Belgian become a foundation dog for our breed and along with Lynn I would not like to see ANY GSD added, I frown upon the Utes and NI who look just like GSD, right down to the colouring.
I agree. For instance, he could be crossed with Nanna (except she is to be retired soon) or perhaps a Nanna x Jackal pup... that would counterbalance the strong husky influence. Or perhaps a mating with Winni to help fix her curly tail? But then we have to look at the temperament factors... the pups might end up super neurotic with really high drive... LOL Whichever female was chosen, it would have to be a one-time litter and registration would be limited (and also depend greatly upon how the pups turned out). I still think a Groenendael cross would be a good idea but it would have to be very carefully selected and undergo full evaluation (in person) and health-testing, as per standard protocol.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:32 pm

Ahh ok, I understand now. Still I wouldn't mind a bit more 'will to please' in the Tamaskan. They wouldn't loose the versatility but maybe some 'pulling drive'. Might be a good idea to outcross to a finnish line then (Susi/Heidi/Jodie or a female pup from Jackal/Dingo). Character would also be very important yes, better to use a more calmer/stable female I think because the belgians can be nervous.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Valravn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:41 pm

I don't really see what the Groenendael has to offer. I would not want to see that coat on a Tam. :?

Personally I'm really impressed with the GSDxUte. It looks a lot less shepherd than I would have thought. A few generations removed from pure GSD and I think they will have a really nice black Ute.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:47 pm

Chiarosa wrote:I don't really see what the Groenendael has to offer. I would not want to see that coat on a Tam. :?

Personally I'm really impressed with the GSDxUte. It looks a lot less shepherd than I would have thought. A few generations removed from pure GSD and I think they will have a really nice black Ute.
I think they have much more to offer then a GSD. They have nice long legs, a nice long muzzle and slight stop, very nice straight back and tail, smaller ears and I would like to see a slightly longer coat on the Tamaskan. I think pups from a Tamaskan x Groenendael could look really wolfy.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:48 pm

Chiarosa wrote:Personally I'm really impressed with the GSDxUte. It looks a lot less shepherd than I would have thought. A few generations removed from pure GSD and I think they will have a really nice black Ute.
I think the black colour and the eye colour can be deceiving, it you colour the dog into typical GSD colour and markings and turned the eyes brown, you wouldnt be able to tell the difference between it and a GSD
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by wolfwannabe » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:04 pm

blufawn wrote:I think the black colour and the eye colour can be deceiving, it you colour the dog into typical GSD colour and markings and turned the eyes brown, you wouldnt be able to tell the difference between it and a GSD
I think the same of the white NI or Ute. I can't tell the difference between them and a white GSD.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:12 pm

Rahne wrote:
Chiarosa wrote:I don't really see what the Groenendael has to offer. I would not want to see that coat on a Tam. :?
I think they have much more to offer then a GSD. They have nice long legs, a nice long muzzle and slight stop, very nice straight back and tail, smaller ears and I would like to see a slightly longer coat on the Tamaskan. I think pups from a Tamaskan x Groenendael could look really wolfy.
I agree with Rahne because the Groenendael's features are much more 'dainty' than the GSD, which is heavier-boned. Though some of the pups might inherit a longer coat, with the right Tamaskan female (one with a shorter coat), it could actually do a lot to improve the breed's coat length. It all depends on genetics though, we could get a litter that is 50% long coat and 50% short coats, with nothing in-between. The ultimate goal would be to get a coat that falls somewhere in the middle... I just wonder how the Groenendael color would interact with the Tamaskan color - we might end up with all solid-color black pups rather than one with a grey undercoat and darker overlay, which is the goal of the Black Grey Tamaskan (solid colors being a serious fault)... we need the peppered / agouti-banded coat but hopefully the genes from both breeds are equally strong so we'd get the Groenendael's black color WITH the Tamaskan's coat pattern. It would definitely be an interesting litter, just from a purely experimental genetics perspective.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:17 pm

I can understand not liking the Ute x GSD mix. Although they produced the black color, it's just black. And if you are attempting Black Phase, that is black with all the nice shades mixed in. And I agree about the black/tan possibly popping up.

However, I have seen dog breeding programs that work with a completely different dog being added into the mix if that is everyone's concern. Like the LUA Dalmatians in the UK (?). Dalmatians as a breed have high uric acid levels and the LUA dals eliminated this problem with just one outcrossing of a pointer. 7 or 14 generations (can't remember which) later they look exactly like dalmations. Spots and everything.

A man who produced Natural Bob tailed boxers. Out crossed with a corgi, a couple gens later the dog looks exactly like a boxer (and corgis and boxers are a big leap).

So if you guys want to outcross for health or coloring, I say go for it while the tamaskan is still a breed in progress. The point of those stories is that you CAN breed to improve health or coloring and get the breed back to the original standard, it would just take a bit of work on the breeders part. I just saw so much concern with saying the breed might end up looking more the the terv in the future. Although it might have those characteristics you could breed any unwanted out.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:22 pm

that's a good idea Ciaobella... BUT... the problem is, what to do with the mixbreed puppies that are produced along the way? There are already sooo many mixbreed puppies out there that are being constantly euthanized at animal shelters, we wouldn't want to add to that problem and not many people would want to buy a first generation crossbreed, unless it looked somewhat like the Tamaskan, which is why we can't leap too far away to a totally different breed. Even if the long-term goals are sound, the method to get there isn't too ethical if you consider all the unwanted puppies that would be produced over several generations. The best solution is to find already existing mixbreed dogs that meet the standard (or come close) to limit the number of strange-looking mutts that would then be difficult to sell or even place into homes for free.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Valravn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:27 pm

I'm just worried we'd end up with something like this:

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(fluffy monster tams! :shock: )

But if they ended up more like this:

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http://www.emsrudel.de/cms/index.php?op ... Itemid=204
I think that would be nice.

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