The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Valravn » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:13 am

Here is NI x GSD
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by TParham86 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:54 am

Beautyful :D :D

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Katlin » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:42 am

Looks like Winni but leggier and a shorter coat, gorgeous dog!
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by martinbernstein » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:42 am

Valravn wrote:Here is NI x GSD
That's a very interesting looking dog. I don't see the GSD save for the ears maybe, though NIs have pretty large ears generally. The snout is longer than either breed, which makes me curious about the particular sire and dam used. Do you know more about this? I'm guessing the GSD used was black or black sable?
Thanks for sharing :)

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Valravn » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:36 pm

martinbernstein wrote:
Valravn wrote:Here is NI x GSD
That's a very interesting looking dog. I don't see the GSD save for the ears maybe, though NIs have pretty large ears generally. The snout is longer than either breed, which makes me curious about the particular sire and dam used. Do you know more about this? I'm guessing the GSD used was black or black sable?
Thanks for sharing :)
The dam was a black NI x GSD. The sire was a grey NI.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:19 pm

VERY pretty dog!
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:53 pm

awww, she (?) is pretty :P
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:40 am

TerriHolt wrote:awww, she (?) is pretty :P
I see no pee pee :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Valravn » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:12 am

Nino wrote:
TerriHolt wrote:awww, she (?) is pretty :P
I see no pee pee :lol: :lol:
:lol: Yes its a girl.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by CSpiker86 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:53 am

Goregous girl!! :D
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Kootenaywolf » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:06 pm

Wow, super pretty!! Very "blackphase" looking indeed.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Blustag » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:57 pm

Looks a lot like the Dutch Shepherd to me.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by martinbernstein » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:05 pm

Blustag wrote:Looks a lot like the Dutch Shepherd to me.
I agree. The last photo looks like a black belgian malinois or a black dutch shepherd.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Tiantai » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:39 pm

Love those glowing eyes in some of the photos. Reminds me of the wolves from a documentary where they were filmed on their night hunt.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Aravis » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:51 pm

She does look a bit like a Dutch Shepherd in the face, especially in that last picture, but the DS usually have a black mask (at least the short haired ones) whereas this dog has these light markings all around her eyes. That being said, she does look gorgeous.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:16 am

What a gorgeous dog & color! Love her! I'd be all over any tams that color!
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Gaby » Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:57 pm

I love that dog too! She is very pretty and I like her colour. I do not think she looks like a Dutch shepherd. Her legs are longer and a Dutch shepherd is build stronger. The body of a Dutch shepherd is longer than it is high, like a rectangle. This dog is more square, but it is difficult to see at this pictures. And the colour, what I know as 'seal', from this dog does not exist in Dutch shepherds. Dutch shepherd are always brindle. ;) Who has this dog? I think she looks very much like a Tamaskan.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Booma » Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:32 pm

Valravn wrote:Here is NI x GSD

I think I can see the german shep in the size and shape of it's head, although it's a bit different. The shorter coat and diff colour just makes it harder to see (IMO)
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Gaby » Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:56 pm

Kyliedelonge wrote:
Valravn wrote:Here is NI x GSD

I think I can see the german shep in the size and shape of it's head, although it's a bit different. The shorter coat and diff colour just makes it harder to see (IMO)
The shape is different, I don't think she looks like a GSD at all really. This dog only has 1/4 GSD in it, for the most part she is a NI. And the NI comes closes to the Tamaskan in looks, and I think this dog does too. She does have the shepherd eyes, more round than almond shaped, which I prefer in Tams. ;)

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:11 pm

She reminds me a lot of Winni - even the lighter puppy coat (which phased out) is similar:

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Anyone know if she will be used for breeding? :)
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Valravn » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:29 pm

Sylvaen wrote:She reminds me a lot of Winni - even the lighter puppy coat (which phased out) is similar:

Image

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Anyone know if she will be used for breeding? :)
No idea. The NI Society seems to be very against outcrossing. They have a thread on their forum about black wolf lookalikes and this girl was never mentioned. :|

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Katlin » Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:37 pm

I went through that album, she's like Winni's twin! Little bit longer ears though.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:50 pm

I like her very much myself.. I know that Lynn isn't much for putting in more like this, but I myself wouldn't mind a pup that looked like this one..
and I believe that it would probably give a little more trainability which I wouldn't mind (not that I don't think that my Tam is pretty easy to train in general, but I wouldn't mind that she was a tad bit easier :) )
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Blustag » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:11 pm

Dont get me wrong ;) I do like the black/grey of course :lol: after all
I have both Tumanra and Dallas. I cant explain it but I want to improve on them. Since returning to UK Tumanra has lost her really wolfy coat (she isnt
the only one) and she dosnt quite look the same. If she looked like she
did when living over there the whole time then I would be happy. We still have
a way to go with the black/greys. Also want to lose the white on the chest or at least reduce it somewhat.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:57 pm

BUMP since it is relevant to the other discussions :)
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:09 pm

Question, would say a tam that looks like Winnie and one that looks like Nanuq, both be considered black/grey?
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by TerriHolt » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:12 pm

Not sure if Rann is considered black/grey (i forget :oops: ) but i like the way he looks as a whole for a foundation dog... fur, looks, never met him so can't comment on temperament...
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Valravn » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:26 pm

Rann is black-grey. I think Nanuq is also considered black-grey but he has more white on him than others.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by AZDehlin » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:32 pm

I wouldn't consider Nanuq as a Black-grey as his whole under belly is white... I would consider him a dark wolf-grey.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:30 am

well it all depends on the genetics.. you may not consider him a black-grey, but he might be one anyway, but it could also be the other way around.. even though Akim is considered a black-grey, he might very well not be, we can actually not really say, unless he produced black-greys with a known black-grey, or he was tested to see if he was a/a (recessive black) else he and Nanuq could just be very dark wolf greys..

We can't actually be 100% sure that Winnie is the same kind of black-grey as Tumanra, Rann, Diesel and Dallas either, since she comes from different lines of dogs.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:35 am

Nino wrote:We can't actually be 100% sure that Winnie is the same kind of black-grey as Tumanra, Rann, Diesel and Dallas either, since she comes from different lines of dogs.
That's what I was thinking!
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:05 am

Ciaobella wrote:
Nino wrote:We can't actually be 100% sure that Winnie is the same kind of black-grey as Tumanra, Rann, Diesel and Dallas either, since she comes from different lines of dogs.
That's what I was thinking!
There are two kinds of Black in dogs.

I'll try to explain - I hope you guys follow, it might be a bit complicated

The Recessive Black (a/a) that is in the category as our wolf-grey color, that of Tumanra and the ones like her. While normal Tamaskans (most likely) would be aw/aw all these Black-Greys would be a/a and all offspring bred from them and a non black-grey non-carrier would be aw/a wolf-grey carrying recessive black.
In a aw/aw x aw/a breeding pups would be 50% "just" wolf-grey and 50% carrying black.
And in a aw/a x aw/a 50% would be wolf-grey black carriers, 25% would be blacks and 25% would "just" be wolf-greys.

The Dominant Black (K/k or K/K) on the other hand would only need one parent to be black for the pups to be black. Breeding a normal wolf-grey k/k aw/aw with a Dominant black dog with one copy of the black gene K/k a?/a? would result in half the puppies being black and wolf-grey (but because they are black you cannot see it) K/k aw/a? and the other half would be as their wolf-grey parent k/k aw/a?, on the other hand breeding a K/K (double copies of the Dominant black) with a wolf-grey aw/aw all puppies would be Black (with one copy of the black gene) and wolf-grey (but you couldn't see the wolfgrey) K/k aw/a?

as a last example, if you bred a Dominant Black Dog (with one copy of the Black gene) K/k a?/a? with a Recessive Black dog k/k a/a, then half the pups would be Dominant black, carrying recessive black, the other half would be wolf-grey (depending on which a type the Dominant Black parent was) carrying recessive Black.
If it was Double Copies Dominant Black K/K a?/a? and Recessive Black k/k a/a then all puppies would be Dominant Black carrying Recessive Black K/k a?/a.
and if you bred two dogs that had both dominant and recessive black colors for several generations then you wouldn't know in the long run what the dogs would be, if they would be only dominant blacks, only recessive blacks or maybe both.. and by then you can look at the Groenendael breed, where some times in their all black litters (with both black parents) then all the sudden a red comes up..


I really hope this isn't too confusing.. else this might help out a bit :oops:

k/k a/a - Homozygous for recessive black.
k/k aw/aw - Homozygous for wild-sable (wolf-grey)
k/k aaw/a - Dog is wild-sable (wolf-grey) and carries recessive black.

K/K - Dog can only produce black puppies
K/k - Dog is Dominant but can produce non black puppies
k/k - Dog can produce non black, unless mated to a mate with Dominant black genes.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:09 am

That did help in explaining genetics, thank you :)

However my question was really just asking what breeders expect when they say "black grey". To me the color is similar to Winnie, that is an ideal black grey in my head. However Tumanra isn't the same color as Winnie in my head and therefore I wouldnt really consider her black grey. But I dunno...That's where confusion sets in for me.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:51 pm

I suppose it would be easier to line them up in real life. Iola and Dallas are more black than Winnie but they do have grey underneath like Winnie.
Winnie, Dallas and Iola were born black and went lighter where Akim was born grey and went darker. Not sure if that makes a difference?
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Tatzel » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:41 pm

I've read somewhere that black-grey in wolves is sort of a faulty color and a sort of leftover gene from mating with dogs.
Not sure how much this is true or not.

Personally I'm not much of a black-grey fan, I just don't think they look very wolf-like.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:57 pm

Tatzel wrote:I've read somewhere that black-grey in wolves is sort of a faulty color and a sort of leftover gene from mating with dogs.
Not sure how much this is true or not.

Personally I'm not much of a black-grey fan, I just don't think they look very wolf-like.
Yeah I have read this too..
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:29 pm

I've read that too, but on the other hand any species can be melanistic. Coyotes come in black :ugeek:
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Tatzel » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:39 pm

Yeah, I just think the wolfy colors (black grey / red grey) plus the wolf mask is what really adds to the wolfy look on the Tams - with the black and grey they mostly look like regular german shep crossbreeds or something. Not to insult black and grey tamaskan owners, they're still pretty and great dogs, but they don't look anything 'wolf' to me.

Now an ACTUAL black and grey wolf is a whole different matter imho.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:43 pm

I agree with you Tatzel. I don't like the black grey Tams, either. Also no offense, but they don't do anything for me. I would rather work on health and physical traits (tails and ears) before branching off and working on additional colors. The wild type coloring of the wolf grey and the red grey are quite attractive and striking.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Tatzel » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:33 pm

A bit off-topic, sometimes I still get confused what is considered red grey and what is considered wolf grey.
For example, what are the colors of the Tams in your picture? I'm guessing wolf grey, but they have that red undercoat on their ears and neck (which I totally love btw) - which other supposely wolf grey Tams (like Summer) completely lack!
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:33 pm

Hawthrone's dogs I would classify as Red grey..
the hard thing is that in some factors they overlap..
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Booma » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:18 am

I like the black grey and would like a tam that colour one day.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Hiwatari » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:46 am

I love black grey!

Akira is half Tamaskan Dog, she is out of Moose and Shadow (sadly from RPK). I love her coloring.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:38 am

Hiwatari wrote:I love black grey!
You have to say that, your girl is black grey ;)

I like black wolves, white wolves and gray wolves (depicting colour)... I've taken a liking to the dark reddy blacks (formally known as red/grey i think... Saxon girl colours...)... As for the black/grey, I do like the black/grey, i just don't think it achieves the 'wolf-y' effect (sorry Akira :mrgreen: )
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Hiwatari » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:52 am

As for the black/grey, I do like the black/grey, i just don't think it achieves the 'wolf-y' effect (sorry Akira )
I have to agree, but a lot of people in person say she looks like a wolf.

Hikari is my new girl that I hope to use for my black phase if she passes her test.

Daichi is my new male I hope to use for the black phase as well if he passes his test (GSD X Husky mix)
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:36 am

She probably does in rl, pictures never do anything justice ;)
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There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Hawthorne » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:48 am

Tatzel wrote:A bit off-topic, sometimes I still get confused what is considered red grey and what is considered wolf grey.
For example, what are the colors of the Tams in your picture? I'm guessing wolf grey, but they have that red undercoat on their ears and neck (which I totally love btw) - which other supposely wolf grey Tams (like Summer) completely lack!
Raven is considered a red grey. But that's not how her registration papers came back. Freyja is a wolf grey on paper too. I think my idea of a red grey is sskewed from meeting Blaze. I've always thought that all red grey s looked like him.

And as for black grey. I should admit I've never seen one in person.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by AZDehlin » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:24 am

Hawthorne wrote:
Tatzel wrote:A bit off-topic, sometimes I still get confused what is considered red grey and what is considered wolf grey.
For example, what are the colors of the Tams in your picture? I'm guessing wolf grey, but they have that red undercoat on their ears and neck (which I totally love btw) - which other supposely wolf grey Tams (like Summer) completely lack!
Raven is considered a red grey. But that's not how her registration papers came back. Freyja is a wolf grey on paper too. I think my idea of a red grey is sskewed from meeting Blaze. I've always thought that all red grey s looked like him.

And as for black grey. I should admit I've never seen one in person.

Raven looks red grey to me... Has she ever looked wolf grey? My Zephyr and Gaby's Loki are the most wolf grey tams I have seen yet. Haven't seen a black grey but I must say I am not a fan. If I want a black dog that looks wolfy I will go with ANCD.

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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Tiantai » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:48 am

AZDehlin wrote: Raven looks red grey to me... Has she ever looked wolf grey? My Zephyr and Gaby's Loki are the most wolf grey tams I have seen yet. Haven't seen a black grey but I must say I am not a fan. If I want a black dog that looks wolfy I will go with ANCD.
Too bad many of the ANCD don't carry the temperament that you're looking for either. Shyness in the breed still needs work.
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Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by AZDehlin » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:08 am

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:
AZDehlin wrote: Raven looks red grey to me... Has she ever looked wolf grey? My Zephyr and Gaby's Loki are the most wolf grey tams I have seen yet. Haven't seen a black grey but I must say I am not a fan. If I want a black dog that looks wolfy I will go with ANCD.
Too bad many of the ANCD don't carry the temperament that you're looking for either. Shyness in the breed still needs work.
Not all of her lines produce shyness Lucas :roll:

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