The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:30 pm

Chiarosa wrote:I'm just worried we'd end up with something like this:

Image
(fluffy monster tams! :shock: )
LOL :D
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

Rahne

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:34 pm

IF there is a litter of Tamaskan x Groenendael I want to be on the top of the list for a pup! Even if it doesn't look 'perfect' it will be another step in the direction of my dream Tamaskan, a black phase :D And it will add some fresh genes to the breed which is also a good thing ;)

What would happen with the color if you use a Groenendael out of Tervuren lines?

User avatar
Ciaobella
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:51 am
Location: South Carolina, USA

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:40 pm

Sylvaen wrote:that's a good idea Ciaobella... BUT... the problem is, what to do with the mixbreed puppies that are produced along the way? There are already sooo many mixbreed puppies out there that are being constantly euthanized at animal shelters, we wouldn't want to add to that problem and not many people would want to buy a first generation crossbreed, unless it looked somewhat like the Tamaskan, which is why we can't leap too far away to a totally different breed. Even if the long-term goals are sound, the method to get there isn't too ethical if you consider all the unwanted puppies that would be produced over several generations. The best solution is to find already existing mixbreed dogs that meet the standard (or come close) to limit the number of strange-looking mutts that would then be difficult to sell or even place into homes for free.
Now I can understand whole-heartedly! I can't say I wouldn't take a monster fluffy tam (lol Chiarosa) or a Terv/Tam (or two tehe) but I can see were it would get difficult it you couldn't get them homed or you are against culling puppies (which I am, I believe they did in the natural bob experiment).

Whatever decision you guys make, I know it will be for the best!
Katurah

User avatar
AZDehlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:52 am
Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan, USA (for now)
Contact:

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:46 pm

I would be interested in a Tamaskan x Groenendael if it could help perfect the black grey Tamaskan.... Don't think we have any black grey's in the states either

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:48 pm

No, they are all in UK, there is only 9.
Rann, Tumarna, 6 of their puppies together and Winnie.
And also Akim being very close to a black grey, but im not sure if he will produce more?!?!?
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5202
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:07 pm

blufawn wrote:And also Akim being very close to a black grey, but im not sure if he will produce more?!?!?
Akim and Nanuq are both Black Greys (though not as well-blended as Rann / Tumanra and their pups) but hopefully they are fertile and can be used for breeding. I think they might have been too young for their first attempt... or not 'practiced' early enough... :?
Chiarosa wrote:But if they ended up more like this:

Image

http://www.emsrudel.de/cms/index.php?op ... Itemid=204
I think that would be nice.
That is a nice-looking pup; the coat is a bit short and ears are a bit long, but the color is good (reminds me a lot of Winni). Masking also needs some work though... all the negative features probably result from crossing to Malinois.

A Groenendael x husky / arctic mix (or with the right Tamaskan) is definitely worth further consideration.
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
Katlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Katlin » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:09 pm

Lol "fulffy monster tams" I can't imagine how much that doggie would shed. So if 2 black-greys breed together they would definitely have at least some blacks in the litter. Or maybe I don't understand this post, are you looking at trying to get the black greys to look like black phase?
Polarose Tamaskan
Polardog Outfitters
Owner of Sierra Kaweah RN RI TDI TRN TTDN CRN-MCL @ Polarose

User avatar
AZDehlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:52 am
Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan, USA (for now)
Contact:

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:12 pm

Boreal wrote:Or maybe I don't understand this post, are you looking at trying to get the black greys to look like black phase?
Trying to evolve the black grey color. All black grey tams are really closely related so far and there aren't very many of them.

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:14 pm

I dont agree that Nanuq is a black grey, he may be darker than other Tams, but I wouldnt consider him a black grey, Akim is borderline black grey
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5202
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:19 pm

Boreal wrote:So if 2 black-greys breed together they would definitely have at least some blacks in the litter.
So far all Black Grey x Black Grey litters have produced Black Grey pups.
AZDehlin wrote:All black grey tams are really closely related so far and there aren't very many of them.
Rann and Tumanra are not related to one another, but their pups (obviously) are siblings.
Winni is not related to Rann or Tumanra (or their pups) and while Nanuq / Akim are brothers, they are also unrelated to either Winni, Rann, Tumanra, or Rann / Tumanra's pups. This means there are a few options available to produce more Black Greys BUT a lot also depends if Nanuq / Akim are indeed fertile.
blufawn wrote:I dont agree that Nanuq is a black grey, he may be darker than other Tams, but I wouldnt consider him a black grey, Akim is borderline black grey
To me, they are. They were both just as black as Tumanra at last year's show... only their coloring wasn't as well blended and they had more white on their chests.
For that matter, Magu (Tumanra's son in the Netherlands) is a very dark Wolf Grey (but not Black Grey).
Boreal and Akira in the USA, while not pure Tamaskan, probably fall into the Black Grey category - Akira certainly, though Boreal is probably just a dark grey.
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:24 pm

Some pics I have of black grey tamaskan.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

User avatar
Ciaobella
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:51 am
Location: South Carolina, USA

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:30 pm

^ I would consider a few of those to be Black Phase, not really black grey, but then again I don't know what you guys mean by black grey? :/ I would think if Akim is considered black grey so would Nanuq, but depends what you guys are calling Black grey and the line between Black Grey/Phase.
Katurah

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:35 pm

I think Iola on the bottom pic is a good example of the colour we are trying to acheive, black overlay but still with a grey undercoat.
I would like to see our black greys progress to having full masks like Winnie (top pic) and no white on their chest, BUT I dont want black greys to begin to look like a seperate breed to wolf grey Tamaskan which is what could happen should we start adding in new blood to just the black grey lines to help us produce more of the above colour.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

Rahne

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:34 pm

Akim:
Image

Nanuq:
Image

I agree with Debby, to me they both look like Black-Greys. Nanuq has some more white in his coat but if you compare him to Fly or Magu who are also really dark then he is black and the others are very dark grey.

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:39 pm

If you put that picture of Nanuq next to the picture of Iola there is sooo much difference in colour.
Nanuq has a grey mane and too much white in his grey masking and a red tips to his ears.
Akim on the other hand is well blended with little masking and consistant colouring, I would def count Akim as a black grey and Nanuq as a dark wolf grey, but the standard is open to interpretation, wouldnt the world be boring if we all agreed.
I find the same trouble with cars, when I say they are green someone else will say they are blue etc etc
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

User avatar
Hiwatari
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:52 am
Location: Colbert. GA
Contact:

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Hiwatari » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:53 pm

I know she's not a Tam, but I just love her and she is the closest to a TDR Tamaskan in the US that could be seen as a black and gray. :D I really just wanting to add her photo, it's not a new one. I'm waiting until we move to take new photos as the place is really a mess with packing right now :oops:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Ciaobella
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:51 am
Location: South Carolina, USA

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:01 pm

Ok, to help me understand (because I'm still confused), what are the colors that exist now?
Because if Akim is black grey I would think Nanuq is as well.

EDIT: I saw Iola's less fluffy coat on the Blustag website and I believe all 3 are have similarities. There coat colors look like they could all be classified as Black-Grey. In fact everyone pup, except Winnie, that was posted I would consider Black Grey. Winnie most definitely could be considered borderline, if not already, Black Phase.

I think the Tamaskan, as a whole, don't have a "uniform" breed color. They are all different shades and looks.
Katurah

User avatar
AZDehlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:52 am
Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan, USA (for now)
Contact:

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:17 pm

Ciaobella wrote:Ok, to help me understand (because I'm still confused), what are the colors that exist now?
Because if Akim is black grey I would think Nanuq is as well.

EDIT: I saw Iola's less fluffy coat on the Blustag website and I believe all 3 are have similarities. There coat colors look like they could all be classified as Black-Grey. In fact everyone pup, except Winnie, that was posted I would consider Black Grey. Winnie most definitely could be considered borderline, if not already, Black Phase.

I think the Tamaskan, as a whole, don't have a "uniform" breed color. They are all different shades and looks.
The Tamaskan comes is three colors:

Wolf grey
Red grey
Black grey

...I think the only way to really compare is having stand next to one another in the same light.

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Nino » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:19 pm

Rahne wrote:IF there is a litter of Tamaskan x Groenendael I want to be on the top of the list for a pup! Even if it doesn't look 'perfect' it will be another step in the direction of my dream Tamaskan, a black phase :D And it will add some fresh genes to the breed which is also a good thing ;)

What would happen with the color if you use a Groenendael out of Tervuren lines?
Put me on that list too, I would like to be part of a project like that..

Ciaobella
There is wolf grey - which varies from really light to really dark (prob. Nanuq)
There is red grey - which is the self explanatory right?
and black grey - which Id say is Winnie, Akim, Rann, Tumanra(Iola) and their pups
>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
Ciaobella
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:51 am
Location: South Carolina, USA

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:27 pm

Nino wrote:Ciaobella
There is wolf grey - which varies from really light to really dark (prob. Nanuq)
There is red grey - which is the self explanatory right?
and black grey - which Id say is Winnie, Akim, Rann, Tumanra(Iola) and their pups
Okay, I can understand that. So you guys are considering black phase as black grey?
Katurah

User avatar
Glennz
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Glennz » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:57 pm

blufawn wrote:I think Iola on the bottom pic is a good example of the colour we are trying to acheive, black overlay but still with a grey undercoat.
I would like to see our black greys progress to having full masks like Winnie (top pic) and no white on their chest, BUT I dont want black greys to begin to look like a seperate breed to wolf grey Tamaskan which is what could happen should we start adding in new blood to just the black grey lines to help us produce more of the above colour.
I think I came up with a way to do it.
Take a Groenendaeler and cross it with a wolf grey or red grey.
Take the lightest pup and the darkest.
Cross the darkest with the Black greys and the lightest with wolf grey or red grey.
This way the Groenendaeler genes will affect the whole breed and improve not only the blacks.

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:35 pm

What happens if all the pups are black ;)
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5202
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:40 pm

Ciaobella wrote:So you guys are considering black phase as black grey?
Yes. The Black Grey is what it is (with a goal to work towards the black phase coloring as seen in wild wolves).
Glennz wrote:I think I came up with a way to do it.
Take a Groenendaeler and cross it with a wolf grey or red grey.
Take the lightest pup and the darkest.
Cross the darkest with the Black greys and the lightest with wolf grey or red grey.
This way the Groenendaeler genes will affect the whole breed and improve not only the blacks.
It all depends on genetics... the pups might all be solid black (if the Groenendael's coloring is dominant) - however, seeing the result of a Malinois x Groenendael, I suspect that the offspring will have both the dark coloring and the grey undercoat.
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
AZDehlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:52 am
Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan, USA (for now)
Contact:

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:18 pm

Sylvaen wrote: It all depends on genetics... the pups might all be solid black (if the Groenendael's coloring is dominant) - however, seeing the result of a Malinois x Groenendael, I suspect that the offspring will have both the dark coloring and the grey undercoat.
Do you have pictures of Malinois x Groenendael?

User avatar
Sammi58
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:21 am
Location: Florida

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sammi58 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:24 pm

I think it is possible the not ALL pups would be black. But again we cant say for sure. However I think it would add genetic divesty to the lines and help with the overall appearence. However, breeding with a Groenendael x Husky is a good idea as well. I mean in the end, Tamaskan is also apart of the crossings genetics which means there will be tamaskan features in the mix. The only thi ng is with a mix breed you may not know all its backround. Like if we were to use a Groenendael we already know its lineage consist of other Groenendael. Also Its just finding the right outcross to help more then just only the Black-grays but can also contribute to the other colors as well.

For example, what other breeds would also be a good idea to consider? I mean I'm sure there are other potential breeds to put into consideration.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5202
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:28 pm

AZDehlin wrote:Do you have pictures of Malinois x Groenendael?
Korinne (Chiarosa) posted the picture and link on Page 5:
Chiarosa wrote: Image

http://www.emsrudel.de/cms/index.php?op ... Itemid=204
I think that would be nice.
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
Ciaobella
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:51 am
Location: South Carolina, USA

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:48 pm

Actually Mal x Groen might not be a bad idea if you are trying for color. There are plenty of spectacular breeders of both, they are both slim breeds (not heavy boned like the GSD) and the color produced in the pup is pretty much what a black phase wolfdog (or wolf) would look like as a pup. If you are trying to achieve that color it might not be a bad way to go.

As for the pups that do or don't make it into the breeding program (that is with any outcrossing you guys decide to choose), you could set up a list of people who might for sure take them if need be (as I know Sylvaen mentioned earlier). I know I wouldn't mind being on that list.
Katurah

Rahne

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:50 pm

Groenendael x German Shepherd:
Image

Groenendael x Malinois:
Image

Groenendael x Border Collie:
Image

This is interesting, coat color genetics in the Groenendael and Tervuren:
http://www.ozbsd.com/coat-inheritance/c ... tance.html

I didn't know there were also grey Tervuren:
Image

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:02 pm

Very interesting chart on the coat colour inheritance in the Belgians :)
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

User avatar
Valravn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 4:22 pm
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Valravn » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:24 pm

A Malamute x Groenendael
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/788749

User avatar
Sammi58
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:21 am
Location: Florida

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sammi58 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:32 pm

That mal mix is beautiful. I think goings for a cross with something like that would be a pretty good idea. Of course if theyre was a darker one it would be even better :P

User avatar
Glennz
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Glennz » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:40 pm

Image
Image

They are both Groenendael X Tervueren.
Beautiful dogs.
The first dog propably carries the black hair gene, maybe if crossed with Tams he would produce both black and grey dogs?

User avatar
kendrrat
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:49 am
Location: California

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by kendrrat » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:50 pm

i dont know, the dogs in the last post seem to have a super long coat, how would that affect the tam coat? or do we care? as pointed out before, that something that could be corrected after a few generations i suppose.
and in the post showing the Groenendael mixes, that black coloring seems to be REALLY dominant, though i dont know what the other parent looked like. it does seem like it *could* be possible that a tam x Groenendael litter could come out either all black of very black dominated. just my thoughts.
i also dont like the looks of the GSD crosses for the tam, though they are pretty in their own right.
i do however think that bringing in some outside genes is worth a shot, and i think if the breeders could probably find enough homes for the puppies created in the process. you already have many offers here and there are lots of people who dont even come on the forum who would be interested, and then when you start breeding these mixed pups that would probably bring more interest too.
either, i support your efforts!

Rahne

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:17 pm

I don't think people have to worry about the coat too much, with the belgian shepherd the long coat is recessive so if it's bred with a short coated Tamaskan then most likely all pups will end up with short coats ;)
You can look at the pictures of the crosses, almost all of them have short coats except for the BC cross but then BC have long coats themselfs. It will be carried by the x pups so it could show up later in a few pups and hopefully they will have a nice coat that is slightly longer then they are now.

User avatar
Ciaobella
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:51 am
Location: South Carolina, USA

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:32 pm

Sammi58 wrote:That mal mix is beautiful. I think goings for a cross with something like that would be a pretty good idea. Of course if theyre was a darker one it would be even better :P
Agreed :)

Hmm, am I the only one thinking why mix the groenendael directly with the tam? I'm thinking do the Mal x Groen litter and then find the pups in that litter that produced the black phase colors, then breed those suitable and who passed the health test with suitable tams? I'm thinking that way the gene pool will be a bit bigger (than a direct Tam/Groen cross), and that example of the Mal x Groen cross is gorgeous and wouldn't be a bad outcome. She is goregous and I have a feeling if this is planed out and carefully thought this could be a nice addition to the breed.

Just an idea.
Katurah

User avatar
Sammi58
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:21 am
Location: Florida

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Sammi58 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:28 pm

They only thing that might be complicated about a Mal x Groen mix is finding the dog along with finding it with a dark coat color, also it being able to pass the health test.. So finding the right mix might be more of a challange. So that's why Groen might be the simpler thing to do. In the end I think we will have to develop the mix first an use the right pup from that litter.

User avatar
Ciaobella
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:51 am
Location: South Carolina, USA

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Ciaobella » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:43 pm

Sammi58 wrote:In the end I think we will have to develop the mix first an use the right pup from that litter.
That's what I was saying, if this would be done there is no way you could find a Mal/Groen it would have to be produced by ourselves.

I don't think their would be a problem finding the right dogs, it might just get complicated because this is a very trial and error experiment. It may or may not work, but then again developing any breed is trial and error.

Adding the mix to the tam I could see it as beneficial. It's just a matter or planning everything out. Outcrossing can be complicated but it would be a neat process and one that would be nice to look into.
Katurah

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:47 am

What you have to remember is that one of our members would have to own either the Mal or the Groen, buy them from select lines, grow it on until 18 months, make sure both are health tested and mate them together which would leave that breeder with a Mal (or Groen) bitch, some cross breed pups but no actual Tamaskan. I dont think any member will want to pay for all of that only to end up with not much.
Any Mal x Groen pups already out there are unlikely to be fully health tested and their parents are also very unlikely to be health tested also, who knows what it is we could be adding in??

I am sure Blustag under NO circumstances would allow one of her Mals to have a litter to a Groen, it just wouldnt happen, I would not do it with my Mal bitch either.

Mating a stud Groen (which no member would have to own) direct to a Tam would be the easiest option for all involved.
Mated to a dog such as Dallas could produce solid black short coated pups (hopefully with no white on the chest) if a male was kept and then mated back to Winnie having a longer coat and more 'black phase' it could theoretically get rid of Winnies curly tail, give a good coat length and get rid of the white on the chest and even out the colours so we would have some solid black but also some black grey and also new lines to carry on the black grey for a while.
BUT it could also leave some quite fine boned and small Tams, some larger ears, a lot of solid black tams or perhaps health issues that the Tam did not suffer with before?

However saying it out loud is easy, finding a well bred, well constructed, fully health tested male Groen whose owner would allow it to be mated to a non recognised dog that they have prob never heard of is not likely to happen.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

User avatar
Glennz
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Glennz » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:19 am

blufawn wrote: I am sure Blustag under NO circumstances would allow one of her Mals to have a litter to a Groen, it just wouldnt happen, I would not do it with my Mal bitch either.
Why actually? ;)
Are you against breeding mutts?

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:42 am

Glennz wrote: Why actually? ;) Are you against breeding mutts?
Yes and no.

It is very difficult for pedigree breeders to trust us when it comes to selling us their dogs. They fear that we are similar to the Ute and NI breeds that we will add just about anything into our dogs as long as we can make money out of it.
We have built up a respect in the Malamute community because we dont cross our pedigree dogs with our Tamaskan, this is the reason that they feel comfortable selling to us or allowing us to use their dogs at stud.
Should we decide to mate one of our Malamutes to a Tamaskan then that respect and trust would be lost and it may harm our chances when showing, breeding or importing new bloodlines for our Malamutes.

I would also not be willing to waste my only Malamutes litter to something I dont believe would be better looking than a direct Tam x Groen when I could produce a fabulous litter of show quality Malamutes to a handsome stud dog and help to further their breed. Dont forget our Malamutes have to also take time out from showing and working in order to have a litter.

As to if I like or dislike mutts that is a difficult question, I dislike Huskamutes, Sammyutes, American Tamaskan and quite a few others that would not fit in one post but that is because they are designer mutts with no fit standard, no hope of recognition by a kennel club (they dont even care) and are bred purely for monetary gain. I also dislike pet litters (its nice to let our little dachshund bitch have a litter, lets use the Shih Tzu round the corner) these dogs are not health tested and the owners are not experienced enough to place the pups into good homes and they dont have the backing of a breeder to guide them. These dogs often end up in rescue centres.

But I suppose at the end of the day its the people I dislike, not the dogs or the idea of mutts......
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

User avatar
Taz
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Taz » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:04 pm

blufawn wrote: It is very difficult for pedigree breeders to trust us when it comes to selling us their dogs. They fear that we are similar to the Ute and NI breeds that we will add just about anything into our dogs as long as we can make money out of it.
We have built up a respect in the Malamute community because we dont cross our pedigree dogs with our Tamaskan, this is the reason that they feel comfortable selling to us or allowing us to use their dogs at stud.
Should we decide to mate one of our Malamutes to a Tamaskan then that respect and trust would be lost and it may harm our chances when showing, breeding or importing new bloodlines for our Malamutes.
I would also not be willing to waste my only Malamutes litter to something I dont believe would be better looking than a direct Tam x Groen when I could produce a fabulous litter of show quality Malamutes to a handsome stud dog and help to further their breed.

As to if I like or dislike mutts that is a difficult question, I dislike Huskamutes, Sammyutes, American Tamaskan and quite a few others that would not fit in one post but that is because they are designer mutts with no fit standard, no hope of recognition by a kennel club (they dont even care) and are bred purely for monetary gain. I also dislike pet litters (its nice to let our little dachshund bitch have a litter, lets use the Shih Tzu round the corner) these dogs are not health tested and the owners are not experienced enough to place the pups into good homes and they dont have the backing of a breeder to guide them. These dogs often end up in rescue centres.

But I suppose at the end of the day its the people I dislike, not the dogs or the idea of mutts......
Those are very fair points, to which I am in agreement.

However, I do think that taking steps to improve genetic diversity would be better done sooner rather than later. If a colour aspect can be improved at the same time, than that of course would be a bonus.

Out of interest have you or anyone else calculated the COI for any of the tamaskans?
"Don't underestimate me.
I know more than I say.
Think more than I speak.
And notice more than you realize".
"you are free to choose
But you are not free
From the consequence of
Your choice "

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:44 pm

We have always been making improvements to the breed and adding in fresh bloodlines, there is no need to panic over new lines, in fact we have on average been adding one new dog a year, last year the TDR decided that Nanna (a Siberian Husky) could be added into the breed and this was done, producing an absolutely fantastic litter of puppies consistant with other Tamaskan pups (because Nanna and her lines were researched properly by everyone and all health testing was done). The year before we added in another foundation dog in the form of Dashka (although she has not been bred from) and the year before that we added in Rann (a NI x Ute) who went on to produce the only all black grey litter we have ever had.
I promise you the Tamaskan is not interbred and new lines are always available, im not sure where this idea that we are running out of lines has come from, we have enough to keep us going for the next 5 years without adding in anything else, but of course if something else should crop up we wouldnt say no.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

User avatar
JulieSmith
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:35 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by JulieSmith » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:53 pm

I think although a lot of people like the black-grey there are also a lot of people who like the paler ones so to add a new dog in just for colour could create other problems. I would say the breed is going in the right direction, both for health and variety of colour choices. I think any dog added to the Tamaskans should bring more than just coat colour to the mix, and I am sure when needed the TDR will find the right dog.

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by TerriHolt » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:28 pm

JulieSmith wrote:I think although a lot of people like the black-grey there are also a lot of people who like the paler ones so to add a new dog in just for colour could create other problems. I would say the breed is going in the right direction, both for health and variety of colour choices. I think any dog added to the Tamaskans should bring more than just coat colour to the mix, and I am sure when needed the TDR will find the right dog.
i second that. there is no rush to add anything so it can be thought out. the colour isn't as important as health and i think it's actually quite good that there are rare colours and keeps them unique. i know winni needs someone to help her get rid of the curl but for the black/grey, it may be a good idea to wait for her to give you some (pending tests).

but as i'm clueless about the whole :oops: , i'll leave my opinionated opinion there :D
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
Taz
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Taz » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:19 pm

blufawn wrote:We have always been making improvements to the breed and adding in fresh bloodlines, there is no need to panic over new lines, in fact we have on average been adding one new dog a year, last year the TDR decided that Nanna (a Siberian Husky) could be added into the breed and this was done, producing an absolutely fantastic litter of puppies consistant with other Tamaskan pups (because Nanna and her lines were researched properly by everyone and all health testing was done). The year before we added in another foundation dog in the form of Dashka (although she has not been bred from) and the year before that we added in Rann (a NI x Ute) who went on to produce the only all black grey litter we have ever had.
I promise you the Tamaskan is not interbred and new lines are always available, im not sure where this idea that we are running out of lines has come from, we have enough to keep us going for the next 5 years without adding in anything else, but of course if something else should crop up we wouldnt say no.
Thanks, nice to see people within these types of dogs actually taking it seriously.

My concern stems from being informed about some of the disgraceful levels of inbreeding within other wolf look alikes. One dog, depending on which version of the pedigree you used has a COI that ranges between 38 and 51%.

Would still be interesting to know what the COI for tamaskans are though.
"Don't underestimate me.
I know more than I say.
Think more than I speak.
And notice more than you realize".
"you are free to choose
But you are not free
From the consequence of
Your choice "

User avatar
AZDehlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:52 am
Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan, USA (for now)
Contact:

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by AZDehlin » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:32 am

Taz wrote:
blufawn wrote:We have always been making improvements to the breed and adding in fresh bloodlines, there is no need to panic over new lines, in fact we have on average been adding one new dog a year, last year the TDR decided that Nanna (a Siberian Husky) could be added into the breed and this was done, producing an absolutely fantastic litter of puppies consistant with other Tamaskan pups (because Nanna and her lines were researched properly by everyone and all health testing was done). The year before we added in another foundation dog in the form of Dashka (although she has not been bred from) and the year before that we added in Rann (a NI x Ute) who went on to produce the only all black grey litter we have ever had.
I promise you the Tamaskan is not interbred and new lines are always available, im not sure where this idea that we are running out of lines has come from, we have enough to keep us going for the next 5 years without adding in anything else, but of course if something else should crop up we wouldnt say no.
Thanks, nice to see people within these types of dogs actually taking it seriously.

My concern stems from being informed about some of the disgraceful levels of inbreeding within other wolf look alikes. One dog, depending on which version of the pedigree you used has a COI that ranges between 38 and 51%.

Would still be interesting to know what the COI for tamaskans are though.
What does COI stand for? It would be cool to see how is that calculated?

User avatar
blufawn
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 1:10 pm
Location: Lincs, UK

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by blufawn » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:13 am

A few years ago I got a free trial on one of those pedigree database thingies and worked out the COI but I cant remember what it was, I think Debby has done it though she may know more when she gets back. COI means nothing to me, I just look at pedigrees and know.

There was a lot of inbreeding going on in the Utonagan and NI breeds, sadly it was prevalent in the lines behind our Tamaskan (something we didnt learn until later) but the breeder changed the pedigrees so you couldnt tell (the reason we introduced DNA testing). It has taken a very long time to unravel all of the pedigrees and set them straight and we now think they are correct (but only she knows 100% and she isnt telling) this is one of the main reasons that we introduced so many outcross dogs at once, a risk some say, but one that paid off. We wanted to keep our look (or improve it) but have something not related to any of the wolf look alikes in Britain as who knows how interbred they are really. Our search took us to Finland (no way anything was related over there) and we bought in 7 new dogs to add to the 10 dogs that we already had (not just at Blustag) between then and now we have added in 6 new foundation dogs not related to any of the other dogs, this has given us 23 breeding dogs, most of which were not related in any way and although our original 10 English dogs had some inbreeding behind them we no longer mate English to English but always mix English to Finnish. Of course now our 2nd and 3rd generation Tamaskan are nearly all half English and half Finnish but we trust that our breeders will study pedigrees carefully before breeding, we already have some rules in place to prevent breeding of two dogs both with Keisha or Cougar (both English) in their pedigree because of a heightened risk of epilepsy.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

Rahne

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:06 pm

Rahne wrote:I know there was a british utonagan litter were they used a german shepherd as outcross, they used a long-haired solid black german shepherd on a utonagan bitch. The father seems more show type (with the sloped back).

Mother:
Image

Father:
Image

Pups (All black):
Image

Pups older:
Image

Image
I just noticed that this black female from the last 2 pictures is for sale:
http://www.preloved.co.uk/fuseaction-ad ... 3845f.html

User avatar
Hawthorne
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1817
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 11:07 pm
Location: Pennsylvania | USA
Contact:

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:48 am

They are beautiful, but how would they differ from black german shepherds?
Tracy Graziano
http://www.hawthornetamaskan.com

bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
lick like there's no end to kissing
sleep on a sofa nearby
jump like the sky is the limit
sit by the fire with friends
stay with the ones who love you
run like the road never ends

Rahne

Re: The Black-Grey Tamaskan

Post by Rahne » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:15 am

Hawthorne wrote:They are beautiful, but how would they differ from black german shepherds?
You mean the Groenendael?

Post Reply