The Black-Grey Tamaskan

[Sammi58]

I understand Tamaskans are ment to look like wolves, yes? Alright, that has been done, and is making great progression from the looks of it. However, something constantly occurs to me when I look at the Tamaskan coat colors. Why did you guys choose to allow the Black-gray?

When I see some of the blackgrays they look beautiful dont get me wrong, but at the same time I dont exactly think wolf. I think mix breed. No offense. Because the light part doesnt blend in the right way to me. I looked online at blackgray wolves, and their isnt much, atleast not on google images. Either they're solid black, or.. Simple they bearly gave gray.

Its like its reverse for them. Like their dark with a light overlay.



Are you guys planning to adjust the blackgray as breeding goes on or what? Also just out of curiosity why are solids not allowed? Is it because you guys are focusing on the look of a generic wolf and allowing to many colors could alter the progress you've made? Or will it eventually be allowed, or it just the way it is? lol.

The black gray is the most dramatic difference compared to the rest of the Tamaskans. Anyways that's all.

[Sylvaen]

Welcome to the forum! Feel free to Introduce Yourself!

The Tamaskan is still a "work in progress" - already much has been accomplished in a short period, but there is still a long way to go to capture the full appearance of a wolf. Also, keeping in mind the different wolf varieties and the look of the "generic wolf" that you mentioned. Here are some other photos of Black Wolves, without so much of the grey overlay (though that could be due to summer vs winter coats, age, etc):





Right now our main priorities are health and diversifying bloodlines for a wider genepool... this takes priority over appearance. Of course, it's still an important factor but we are still working on the main traits: smaller ears, a proper tail, and a wolfy coat (of the right length) rather than breeding for just color alone. I'm sure that future generations will look ever more wolfy and eventually the Black Grey Tamaskans will start to look like the "Zonar Grey" (black phase) in the photo you provided. The next step will be to cut down on the amount of white (patches on the chest and paws). And then to work on the grey highlights. Technically (and in theory) it could be accomplished within only a few generations... BUT this should not happen until our other priorities are accomplished, or at least in conjunction.

Recently a Black-Grey Tamaskan female (Blufawn Chives) was born that is a further step towards a Black Tamaskan with Grey highlights:



With the right male, she could further enhance the color of future generations of Black Greys... BUT that also depends on other traits. For instance, she has quite a curly tail... SO... it may not be worth the risk to introduce that to future bloodlines, just for the sake of color. It's a real gamble, but that's the beauty of selective breeding... and why we love what we do.

Already we were discussing future bloodlines: (Chives X Rann) + (Tumanra X Akim) for instance could produce some good results, but that all depends on the outcome of health tests as well as her appearance when she is an adult. We shall see.

Also just out of curiosity why are solids not allowed? Is it because you guys are focusing on the look of a generic wolf and allowing to many colors could alter the progress you've made? Or will it eventually be allowed, or it just the way it is? lol.

Correct. IF we start adding in solids now, we open up the floodgates for a whole bunch of new (non-wolfy) colors: piebalds, etc. Also, if you look at Black and White wolves, they are not solid colors but, rather, have darker/lighter guard-hairs and blends of other colors mixed in. It's never a pure white or pure black, unlike those seen in domestic dog breeds. White wolves have a mix of cream, yellow, and grey while black wolves have a mix of red, brown and black, as well as white and grey. If we added solid white now, the result would look too much like a White Swiss Shepherd.

Right now we do have some very light grey Tamaskans (Summer & Skye, for instance) so, in the future, they could be used to create a line of very light / White-Grey Tamaskans, much like how the Black Grey lines developed. BUT I doubt you'll ever see a SOLID color Tamaskan since it isn't permitted in the Breed Standard.

[Sammi58]

Ah yes, that does make more sense now. Cause at the same time their is alot of work that needs to be done. But that answered my question very well. So thank you. I wonder how the tamaskan will look in 10 years from now. Alot of thought is put into this, so you guys are really thinking this throughly, thats very good. I feel this breed will be sucessful over time.

[Blustag]

Thank you Debby for your good explanation. Yes I am hoping to use Akim on Tumanra. This will be her last litter before she is spayed and retired from breeding and I think he is a very good choice for her. We possibly have her daughter Dallas (Blustag Diamonds are Forever) another black grey female pregnant to Dingo at Blustag. We will know more in another couple of weeks. I personally would like to see a lot less of the white on the chest as seen on Chives. But having said that there is a good chance that that particular white will blend in as she grows and matures. It will certainly seem a lot less obvious later on.

[JessieLove09]

I must say a Piebald Tamaskan will look quite unusual.

[Taz]

As pups lovely as they are, the black grey's don't really do it for me, to much contrast between light and dark. However, as they age, in my opinion at least, they seem to come into their own.

To be honist, I like the fact that the tamaskan doesn't come in solid colours. I've seen many a white northern inuit/utonagan etc, and they just look like gsds or gsd x sibs, more than usual I mean.

[ElkRiver]

I, on the other hand, love the black grey look, I hope to help Lynn in enhancing this color for Tams. I can see a lot of potential in the future for this color, wait and see!

[Valravn]

I didn't like the black grey at first but it grew on me. I blame Rann and Diesel. Both gorgeous dogs. I'd love to have a black grey Tamaskan of my own someday.

[Blustag]

Well I can say for sure that having just been with Akim, Nanook and Tumanra all over in Germany this last week ALL three of them are exactly the same colour lol.. We had a mating between Tumanra and Nanook so will know how it went in a few weeks time. Nanook is larger than Akim with more bone. Both the boys are VERY big though. Tumanra is large for a female. I would not like to see solid colours or piebalds or anything else over what we have already in our breed.

[torriarno]

There are actually ..black grey wolves...the dark ones are not all solid colours...bear in mind that the wolves are in a colder climate than where some of us live with our dogs...I shall try and find a black grey wolf and post it ...if i can remember where I saw it....but they do exist....and are the same albiet more coat at times due to the nature of weather...and how they feed..which is good for the wolves coats...the black grey wolf colour is more common than you might realize .

[Aushra]

Wonderful information! Thank you all for this forum!!
Black phase wolves are gorgeous to me and this was a color I became very interested in and had wanted to help rescue one in need. But as things changed, seeing black phase Tamaskans (I don't feel I've earned the right to call them by their nickname) would be fabulous!! But would they be called black phase, in fact, what are the names of the Tamaskans' colors?

[torriarno]

The colours vary such a lot in wolves...but usually the outer guard hairs denote the colour even a grey wolf has a coat of many colours, white, grey, black and brown hairs intermingled with the darker fur usually predominating along the centre of the back and tail, ie timber wolves tend to be grey to black, whereas tundra wolves tend to be lighter though some may be black to, and the timber wolf has shorter hair than that of the tundra wolf etc etc..one of the pictures shown on this thread looks black..yet he is not as grizzle...on head and face and through coat...the black grey tamaskan has grizzle to ..notably on the head..but yes seem to be much the same...variation will be on condition of coat etc...time of year ..etc etc becoming lighter or darker depending on growing and casting of coat and lenght etc...grey wolves tend to go more grey with age as they get to be old etc...
The light on the dark...can giver the effect of silver ..very attractive top jacket...
Most wolves tend to be tawny underneath their bodies and legs to...

But yes health first ...is a much ...but a very interesting topic on colour.

[Rahne]

We had a mating between Tumanra and Nanook so will know how it went in a few weeks time.

Just curious, why did you go for Nanuq instead of Akim? I thought the original plan was a mating to Akim because he's black grey with yellow eyes??

[Blustag]

We had a mating between Tumanra and Nanook so will know how it went in a few weeks time.

Just curious, why did you go for Nanuq instead of Akim? I thought the original plan was a mating to Akim because he's black grey with yellow eyes??

Akim was lovely just not ready yet for a mating. He just needs to mature a little more first.

[JessieLove09]

There are actually ..black grey wolves...the dark ones are not all solid colours...bear in mind that the wolves are in a colder climate than where some of us live with our dogs...I shall try and find a black grey wolf and post it ...if i can remember where I saw it....but they do exist....and are the same albiet more coat at times due to the nature of weather...and how they feed..which is good for the wolves coats...the black grey wolf colour is more common than you might realize .

Something like this?:

[Aushra]

Gorgeous!!

[Blustag]

Nice pic and the eyes make it

[JessieLove09]

The wonders of google. I was showing this guy on the GSD forum I am on how some dogs can look very wolfish and was comparing that picture to a picture of my dog and how easily someone can be fooled into thinking he is part wolf. This guy got his dog off Craigslist and sincerely believes his dog is a Artic Wolf/Husky/Malamute mix. The dog was clearly a Husky/Shepherd Mix. No wolf.lol

[torriarno]

Yes the eyes on that one was lovely...looks a solid colour ...but with the undercoat showing through.nice though

[TeresaC]

Tumanra and Nanuq...very cool...can't wait to see what those puppies look like

[kendrrat]

definitely, a truly LOVE the black grey tams and am excited to see how that color progresses in the breed in the future

[xxbluewolfxx]

I'm new to this forum so I was hoping you guys could help me out.

Recently a Black-Grey Tamaskan female (Blufawn Chives) was born that is a further step towards a Black Tamaskan with Grey highlights:



With the right male, she could further enhance the color of future generations of Black Greys... BUT that also depends on other traits. For instance, she has quite a curly tail... SO... it may not be worth the risk to introduce that to future bloodlines, just for the sake of color. It's a real gamble, but that's the beauty of selective breeding... and why we love what we do.

HOW on earth do you get this puppy to look like this?

What was what the color of the parents? What I'm trying to find out is how to get this color of Tamaskan because I'm totally falling for the dark colored Tamaskans. I know the breed standard is against solid colors, and that's not what I want, but rather the mix of colors. This puppy has exactly the coloration I was looking for... but how on earth did you produce this color?

[Rahne]

Blufawn Chives was a big surprise to everyone so we can't say for certain how that color was produced.
Sometimes two Wolf Grey parents will produce Black Grey, as it's probably somewhere in their ancestry.

[Sylvaen]

In this case, the parents are both wolf grey but black can be carried as a recessive gene, as well as a dominant gene (I figure there are several different black genes that come into play) - if you look back in the ancestry, there are some dark dogs in the pedigree (Thor: black malamute, etc) so it's quite possible for dogs of one phenotype to carry genes for another color, which then only become apparent several generations down the line. That's what makes breeding so interesting. When you do an outcross you can always expect some unusual results, but the same is also true for close linebreeding because that enables otherwise recessive (hidden) genes to become apparent when they are doubled up. If you plan to factor color into your future breeding program, the best advice would be to study the bloodlines to look for the traits that most interest you.

[xxbluewolfxx]

Thanks for that information, it was helpful!!!

[NWHeather]

While I find all Tamaskans to be beautiful, I find the black-grye ones to be especially stunning, & hope to get one some day.

[Blustag]

They are very rare so you would be advised to go on a waiting list and stipulate what you want

[Hawthorne]

If I may ask, is Blufawn Chives in a breeding home?

[Nino]

If I may ask, is Blufawn Chives in a breeding home?

Isn't she living with Jennie?

[Hawthorne]

Haha. I see that now. I did a search for Chives--found all the photos. She's stunning!
Jennie--do you intend to breed her someday?

[blufawn]

Yes, I was hoping to breed her to a (Rann x Tumanra) pup, but none of them have had their hips done yet so I suppose it would have to be Rann, which would be a shame as all black pups would then be very closely related to all other black pups.
In the future I could mate her to Ollie (Dingo x Dallas) which may also produce black if we are lucky, im not going to give up on this colour and will do all I can to see it survive.

[Hawthorne]

That's cool, Jennie. Winnie certainly is my favorite black grey. Nice work!

[Sammi58]

Winnie pups is deffinately a must see! Maybe we should wait till one of the blacks are older so they're more variety for the blacks. Maybe breed her with a a gray for now, she has the black gene so im sure its possible for her to produce a black even if mixed with a wolf-gray. Or maybe a red-gray and see what that brings? Has a Black-grey ever been bred with a red-gray? Im sure that would also bring something interesting to the Tamaskan lines maybe?

[AZDehlin]

Winnie is my favorite black/grey Tamaskan... I am interested to see the colors of her litters in the future.

[blufawn]

Tumanra has been bred to greys and produced only grey and Dallas was mated to a grey and produced only grey. The only litter that has ever produced black is a black to black mating.
And yet both Tumanras parents are grey (black comes from her grandfather)
I dont think we have ever bred a black to a red before. But she isnt old enough for mating for another 8 months yet anyway. She turns 1 in a few weeks time so going to get her hips scored and Geri's asap

[Rahne]

Nanuq and Akim are also black-grey and come from wolf-grey parents.

[blufawn]

Yes, it has to be possible, its just finding the right combination. Although I wouldnt consider Nanuq a black grey, but Akim is.

[Nino]

Yes, it has to be possible, its just finding the right combination. Although I wouldnt consider Nanuq a black grey, but Akim is.

Not really sure about the color inheritance in dogs - but if its anything like what I know about, and (Winnie is a JackalxZuul pup right?) then there is a 50/50 on that every puppy from Zuul and Jackal is a carrier of the gene, as with the ones from Summer and the ones from Tumanra, Dallas and Rann should all be carriers (the ones not being black)

Considering that mating Winnie with any pup from Tumanra/Rann/Dallas that is not black would give a 50/50 on black in that litter.
If mating with one of the other Black/greys with a puppy from from Zuul, Jackal or Summer there would be a 50/50 on Black greys in the litters.

If Mating a non black with a non black but both carriers of black there shoudl be 25% black/greys in the litter..

In theory that would mean that if I mated Sølve with Akim there would be a 50% chance that there would come black/grey puppies - depending on if Jackal passed the black to Sølve.. (wouldn't mind that mating Akim is very beautiful )

But ofcause its all in theory and I'm not really all that into the dog genetics

[blufawn]

But then surely as Tumanra and Dallas ARE black (Dallas being double black) we should have seen at least one pup in their litters which is black, but we havent??
I think Tamaskan are a law unto themselves

[Rahne]

I know you have recessive and dominant black. Recessive is rare and is seen in the german shepherd and I think this might also be the case with the Tamaskan as the black x black produced all blacks. All the blacks would be bb then and the parents of tumanra would have been Bb x Bb. In that litter there would be 25% chance of bb. I think most of the tamaskans are BB (no carriers) so that's why it wouldn't show up very often. So probably all the males Tumanra have been mated to were BB so then all her pups would be carriers and not show the black (Bb). A few of Summers pups might be carriers and also some of Zuuls pups so they should be mixed and then there could be more Black-Greys!
Well that's my theory atleast.

[blufawn]

Yes, this is why I thought a mating with Winnie to a pup such as Ollie (Dingo x Dallas) could produce some blacks or perhaps even to an Odin or Nevada pup....... will just have to wait and see

[kendrrat]

i would definitely like to wait and see her mate with a mature black grey, but im also really really interested in seeing a mating between a black and a red. if the theory the most tams are BB (non carriers) then this mating might just create more red greys, but could it be possible that the red grey that comes out of such a mating is affected by the black grey color? i dont know how that works so tell me if im way off base here.

[blufawn]

If you are thinking that by mating a black to a red you may get some sort of reddyblack colour then that is highly unlikely, but these dogs do do the strangest things so anything is possible

[kendrrat]

haha yeah i think its mostly just wishful thinking

[Sammi58]

I think it's an interesting idea for a black to be bred with a red considering it hasnt been done and how would the litter come out. Might just be surprising you never really know. As for breeding Winnie that will be a day i think we will all want to see how that comes out. And I really hope the black-greys pop up more so its easier to diverse theyre lines.

[Hawthorne]

reddyblack

Wolf gray Tamaskan
Red gray Tamaskan
Black gray Tamaskan
Reddyblack Tamaskan

[kendrrat]

hehe put me down for one reddyblack right away please

[Sylvaen]

A few more generations of selective breeding and the black-grey will be almost there...
http://www.loups.org/post/5939748394/wo ... e-northern


For the head / facial markings anyway.

[Blustag]

The above picture shows Winni completely bald with no undercoat whatsoever.
Timba held onto hers and today has completely blown it just intime for the Euro show

[Nino]

The above picture shows Winni completely bald with no undercoat whatsoever.
Timba held onto hers and today has completely blown it just intime for the Euro show

It looks really strange without the undercoat