Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
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Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by balto13 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:21 am

I know there have been a lot of comments/thoughts on how these look like sibe's, on the "Tamrakar Fred" thread there was some talk of black/grey ("black phasing") and I had a lot of questions. However I don't want to turn either of the puppies picture threads into a discussion so I brought my questions here :)

Valravn wrote:
arianwenarie wrote:Puppy pictures!! Thanks for sharing your cute pup. :) Looks like he was enjoying his bath.
AZDehlin wrote:He is cute, looks like he is going to get a phased coat as he grows.
Hrm.....Is he the secret to black phase Tamaskans? :D
:? Mm I don't think so… Looks like husky black and white to me. A lot of NI and Utes are this color too.

I am confused, can't huskies have dominant black?
Rahne wrote:The 'secret' to black phase Tamaskan (or what would come closest) is dominant black in combination with agouti 8-)
does this mean if Tamarakar fred or Ginny were mated with an agouti they could produce "black phase"?

Rahne

Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Rahne » Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:20 am

balto13 wrote:I am confused, can't huskies have dominant black?
Yes they do. But in the Tamaskan it's not dominant, if that were the case then one of the parents had to be black themselves and they are not... they are both grey. The black you see in the Tamaskan (so far) and in the Utonagan are recessive. Dominant black is on the K-locus, while recessive black is on the A-locus (so it would also be possible for a dog to carry both dominant and recessive black).
balto13 wrote:Does this mean if Tamarakar fred or Ginny were mated with an agouti they could produce "black phase"?
Agouti (aw) is also on the A-locus, so a dog that is recessive black (aa) can never carry agouti, while a dog that is dominant black can carry agouti. I think it's that combination that might give the 'greying' look in the blacks...

However this site (http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/tan.html) states "It is important to note that the genes on the A series can only be expressed if the dog has one of the following genotypes on the K locus: kk, kkbr or kbrkbr. If the dog has just one K allele then it will be solid black (or liver/blue/isabella). A solid black dog may be genetically a sable, tan-point or agouti, but it will not be able to display it."

hmm, but looking at some dogs:

Winnie = dominant black, agouti
Image

Pepsi (ANCD) = dominant black, agouti
Image

Xena (ANCD, mother of Pepsi) = dominant black, no agouti
Image

Notice the difference between Xena (mother) and Pepsi (daughter). Xena is jet black without (much) greying while Pepsi has greying in her coat, giving her a 'phasing look'. Winnie has greying her in coat too and so do her black pups.

All Wolf/Red Grey Tamaskan carry agouti btw, Siberian Huskies can carry it too (among several other breeds).

The 'black' in Fred/Ginny isn't really different from the other Tamaskan, look at puppy Diesel for example:
Image

What is making them look much more 'Huskyish' are the white markings ;)
The white markings are most likely due to 'White Spotting (S-locus)' though it is thought other genes might play a part aswell. Markings can be minimal, like some white on the chest/muzzle/tail tip/legs (which most Tamaskan have), or they cover most of the dog (Piebald).

Black & White Husky:
Image

Black Husky (with minimal white):
Image

Rahne

Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Rahne » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:02 am

To add: What causes the black phasing in wolves is unknown I believe (they suspect it comes from dogs, but which genes are responsible?). I have not seen this type of phasing in dogs... wolves usually start out jet black and the older they get the more grey they will become and can even turn almost fully white in the end.

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Vajente » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:17 am

Rahne wrote:However this site (http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/tan.html) states "It is important to note that the genes on the A series can only be expressed if the dog has one of the following genotypes on the K locus: kk, kkbr or kbrkbr. If the dog has just one K allele then it will be solid black (or liver/blue/isabella). A solid black dog may be genetically a sable, tan-point or agouti, but it will not be able to display it."
either the wolfgrey gene is not on the A series (has not been found jet) or K does not completely overrule the A series.

do these 2 pups got full papers? I would not like to see these in breeding.

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Nino » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:29 am

Just a note Rahne.

I am pretty sure that Pepsi and Cola are sisters not mother and daughter :)
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Rahne » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:36 am

Nino wrote:Just a note Rahne.

I am pretty sure that Pepsi and Cola are sisters not mother and daughter :)
Yeah you are right, I edited it. It was Xena ofcourse :oops:

Rahne

Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Rahne » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:45 am

Vajente wrote:
Rahne wrote:However this site (http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/tan.html) states "It is important to note that the genes on the A series can only be expressed if the dog has one of the following genotypes on the K locus: kk, kkbr or kbrkbr. If the dog has just one K allele then it will be solid black (or liver/blue/isabella). A solid black dog may be genetically a sable, tan-point or agouti, but it will not be able to display it."
either the wolfgrey gene is not on the A series (has not been found jet) or K does not completely overrule the A series.
That's what I'm thinking too...

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Nino » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:54 am

Rahne wrote:
Nino wrote:Just a note Rahne.

I am pretty sure that Pepsi and Cola are sisters not mother and daughter :)
Yeah you are right, I edited it. It was Xena ofcourse :oops:
Great :D
I was pretty sure it was.. you got me all confused and shit ;)
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Nino » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:56 am

Rahne wrote:
Vajente wrote:
Rahne wrote:However this site (http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/tan.html) states "It is important to note that the genes on the A series can only be expressed if the dog has one of the following genotypes on the K locus: kk, kkbr or kbrkbr. If the dog has just one K allele then it will be solid black (or liver/blue/isabella). A solid black dog may be genetically a sable, tan-point or agouti, but it will not be able to display it."
either the wolfgrey gene is not on the A series (has not been found jet) or K does not completely overrule the A series.
That's what I'm thinking too...
What I am interested to know is if a dog is K/K A/A (homogeneous for both Dominant Black AND Agouti) will it be Jet black or Black "Phased" ?
See Pepsi is Dominant Black and Agouti, but if I remember correctly she only has one Dominnant black gene
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Vajente » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:59 am

you mean K/K aw/aw? good questing would be interesting to see

Rahne

Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Rahne » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:08 am

Yeah something I was pondering about aswell.
Winnie and Pepsi are both heterogeneous for K & Aw. Xena is K/K & At/At.

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Vajente » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:14 am

but even if homozygous K would make them solid black, it wouldn't be a problem just don't do black to black matings (that is if you really don't want solids)

what would Winni have next to the aw? a or at?
all tams should be either aw/aw or aw/a. I don't think there is much at in the breed, if it is there at all

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Nino » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:45 pm

oh yeah.. sorry.. got the wrong letters :P

Vajente - yes but if that is not necessary - if K/K Aw/Aw still gives the "phased" look then it wouldn't be a problem.

I am just curious if that would actually give the same look..
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:51 pm

Rahne, could you post a photo of Diesel as a pup and adult to show how he has changed? Do you think Nel (Fred) and Pepper (Ginny) would turn out similar?
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Booma » Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:12 pm

Wow Pepsi looks amazing. That's exactly the colouring I want.
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Jlynne » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:38 am

Vajente wrote:
Rahne wrote:However this site (http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/tan.html) states "It is important to note that the genes on the A series can only be expressed if the dog has one of the following genotypes on the K locus: kk, kkbr or kbrkbr. If the dog has just one K allele then it will be solid black (or liver/blue/isabella). A solid black dog may be genetically a sable, tan-point or agouti, but it will not be able to display it."
either the wolfgrey gene is not on the A series (has not been found jet) or K does not completely overrule the A series.

do these 2 pups got full papers? I would not like to see these in breeding.
It's my understanding that my puppy, Nel (Fred) does have full papers. He was born to Leia (Blustag Bermuda Buttercup) and Dylan (Sugalba Pigs Might Fly at Moondance), if that helps answer the question. Anything else I can provide please let me know! I'll also be uploading some more pics soon to show his coloring. He's very VERY much colored like the above picture of Diesel, all the way down to the brown on the legs. I'm interested to see a picture of Diesel as an adult!

Rahne

Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Rahne » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:16 am

Diesel, at 3 years old:

Image

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by balto13 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:58 am

Jlynne wrote: It's my understanding that my puppy, Nel (Fred) does have full papers. He was born to Leia (Blustag Bermuda Buttercup) and Dylan (Sugalba Pigs Might Fly at Moondance), if that helps answer the question. Anything else I can provide please let me know! I'll also be uploading some more pics soon to show his coloring. He's very VERY much colored like the above picture of Diesel, all the way down to the brown on the legs. I'm interested to see a picture of Diesel as an adult!

I am excited to watch your puppy develop! please post as many as you want :)

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by chelle784 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:42 pm

Vajente wrote:
Rahne wrote:However this site (http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/tan.html) states "It is important to note that the genes on the A series can only be expressed if the dog has one of the following genotypes on the K locus: kk, kkbr or kbrkbr. If the dog has just one K allele then it will be solid black (or liver/blue/isabella). A solid black dog may be genetically a sable, tan-point or agouti, but it will not be able to display it."
either the wolfgrey gene is not on the A series (has not been found jet) or K does not completely overrule the A series.

do these 2 pups got full papers? I would not like to see these in breeding.
By 'full papers' do you mean 'registration cert & pedigree' issued by the register? Then yes Nel and Pepper have these. I have received my copy.


Also Diesel looks gorgeous!

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by balto13 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:11 pm

chelle784 wrote:
Vajente wrote:
Rahne wrote:However this site (http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/tan.html) states "It is important to note that the genes on the A series can only be expressed if the dog has one of the following genotypes on the K locus: kk, kkbr or kbrkbr. If the dog has just one K allele then it will be solid black (or liver/blue/isabella). A solid black dog may be genetically a sable, tan-point or agouti, but it will not be able to display it."
either the wolfgrey gene is not on the A series (has not been found jet) or K does not completely overrule the A series.

do these 2 pups got full papers? I would not like to see these in breeding.
By 'full papers' do you mean 'registration cert & pedigree' issued by the register? Then yes Nel and Pepper have these. I have received my copy.


Also Diesel looks gorgeous!
I think what you have is an official paper work saying your tamaskan is an official TDR tamaskan! (hurray!)

as far as registration there are different types of registration:

-Unrestricted / Full TDR Registration
-Conditional TDR Registration
-Limited TDR Registration

they are explained here http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/registry/li ... gistration :)

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by chelle784 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:28 pm

Will it say on the certificate or database if it is restricted ? Just looked on both and it doesn't specify unless im missing something but as far as I am aware she meets the conditions noted on the link ! Hadn't really thought about it until someone questioned it..

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by balto13 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:38 pm

chelle784 wrote:Will it say on the certificate or database if it is restricted ? Just looked on both and it doesn't specify unless im missing something but as far as I am aware she meets the conditions noted on the link ! Hadn't really thought about it until someone questioned it..

I am unsure where it would be stated, I think if your pup had anything other than full registration Amit would have told you. I looked the litter up on the database and don't see any restrictions

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by arianwenarie » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:28 am

balto13 wrote:
chelle784 wrote:Will it say on the certificate or database if it is restricted ? Just looked on both and it doesn't specify unless im missing something but as far as I am aware she meets the conditions noted on the link ! Hadn't really thought about it until someone questioned it..

I am unsure where it would be stated, I think if your pup had anything other than full registration Amit would have told you. I looked the litter up on the database and don't see any restrictions
I am thinking if a pup received limited or conditional registration, the breeder would have been informed. That, or the registration paperwork would indicate such...?

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Vajente » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:44 pm

I wonder about Diesel and the other black grey's, if they are recessive black they should be a/a but then there would be no room for aw and they shouldn't be showing the wolfgrey pattern.

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by AZDehlin » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:41 pm

All pups from the Harry Potter litter had full registration.

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by chelle784 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:03 am

As this was a thread regarding Pepper and Nel's coat colour I just thought I would give an update on Pepper's change in colour. This photo was taken about a month ago so even then it has changed since.
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Tatzel » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:09 am

Wow, he became much brighter! He was almost completely black on top before!
Nice to see him changing color like that! Please keep us updated! :D
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by arianwenarie » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:12 am

Wow. He's really greying out...much like Diesel, but a lot faster, it seems. But he still looks like a Husky (no offense intended) - likely because of the white instead of tan points to make him look like the black-grey Tamaskans we've seen thus far.

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by chelle784 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:17 am

Yes I would agree - I think it's her 'eyebrows' mostly that make her look like a husky

She has changed in the last month and instead of getting 'is that a husky?' i've had 2 people that have said 'is that a wolf hybrid' but most are asking if she is a husky mix or gsd/husky mix. I'll try upload more recent pics on the photos section at some point.

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Vajente » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:49 am

te color doesn't bother me, it's the markings I don't like

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Sylvaen » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:40 am

I like how her coloring has developed / is developing :)
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by balto13 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:28 pm

arianwenarie wrote:Wow. He's really greying out...much like Diesel, but a lot faster, it seems. But he still looks like a Husky (no offense intended) - likely because of the white instead of tan points to make him look like the black-grey Tamaskans we've seen thus far.

I could be wrong, but I think pepper is a she ;)

chelle784 wrote:Yes I would agree - I think it's her 'eyebrows' mostly that make her look like a husky

She has changed in the last month and instead of getting 'is that a husky?' i've had 2 people that have said 'is that a wolf hybrid' but most are asking if she is a husky mix or gsd/husky mix. I'll try upload more recent pics on the photos section at some point.
I like how she is developing! I know her eyebrows are kind of a "tell" but hey, its a work in progress!

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by chelle784 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:34 pm

Vajente wrote:te color doesn't bother me, it's the markings I don't like
Well that's ok seeing as it is not your dog - why care? You are the only one who has said anything rude about Tamrakar Fred and Ginny. Would you tell someone on the street 'I don't like the way your dog looks?'

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by chelle784 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:46 pm

Thanks everyone else for your nice comments! I know she doesn't have correct markings/mask but as someone mentioned the Tamaskan is currently a work in progress.

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by arianwenarie » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:08 pm

chelle784 wrote:Thanks everyone else for your nice comments! I know she doesn't have correct markings/mask but as someone mentioned the Tamaskan is currently a work in progress.
I am not very surprised (but still somewhat, I admit) that two pups had Husky markings. But it's true that their dam is 1/2 Husky and didn't have as good of a mask as we'd have liked. The B&W husky markings are interesting though...makes me wonder if this was recessive since the Tumanra x Rann litter has the same fading black. Of course, I'm waiting for someone with the know-how in genetics to chime in. XD

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by balto13 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:22 am

chelle784, is that pepper as your profile picture/avatar? she looks simply gorgeous!

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by chelle784 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:16 pm

balto13 wrote:chelle784, is that pepper as your profile picture/avatar? she looks simply gorgeous!
Yes it is and thank you :)

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Cornelia1986 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:55 am

chelle784 wrote:
balto13 wrote:chelle784, is that pepper as your profile picture/avatar? she looks simply gorgeous!
Yes it is and thank you :)

+1
I just love her profile pic - such an handsome girl :)
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:50 pm

chelle784 wrote:
Vajente wrote:te color doesn't bother me, it's the markings I don't like
Well that's ok seeing as it is not your dog - why care? You are the only one who has said anything rude about Tamrakar Fred and Ginny. Would you tell someone on the street 'I don't like the way your dog looks?'
How can an opinion be rude :? ? No, one does not simply just go up to someone random on the street and make comment on their dog but this is a forum where opinions are shared...
Totally different...
Just saying...
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by chelle784 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:14 pm

TerriHolt wrote:
chelle784 wrote:
Vajente wrote:te color doesn't bother me, it's the markings I don't like
Well that's ok seeing as it is not your dog - why care? You are the only one who has said anything rude about Tamrakar Fred and Ginny. Would you tell someone on the street 'I don't like the way your dog looks?'
How can an opinion be rude :? ? No, one does not simply just go up to someone random on the street and make comment on their dog but this is a forum where opinions are shared...
Totally different...
Just saying...

Of course opinions can be rude! If someone said 'I think you are ugly' to me if I was having a conversation about what I was wearing - yes it is their opinion but it is also rude. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but maybe people should think if it's not a positive thing then is it really necessary to say it?

It would def be entirely different had the topic been me saying 'oh I want to breed her' (just to put it out there, she is getting spayed next month so not happening). Then of course I would understand because the negative comment(s) would be relevant to the topic.

Just put yourself in my place, if you just got your puppy and people started questioning how it doesn't look like the breed, they question the registration, say how they would not like to see them in breeding, they say they have a problem with the way your puppy looks (again not relevant unless i was saying I wanted to breed her). I don't see other topics on this forum where people are saying the same to owners of new pups!

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by chelle784 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:20 pm

Just another note - saying she looks like a husky wasn't the thing that offended me (it's true) because those people didn't add how they don't like the way she looks, didn't question her papers etc.

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Booma » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:21 pm

I think it was the way the opinion was given. I think pepper is gorgeous. Personally I don't like her masking **only** because it does not match standard (i hope I haven't offended you as well). My dog has a crap tail that isn't to standard. I know that and I don't mind people commenting on it, but depending on what they said / how they said it, I might be offended by it.
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by chelle784 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:23 pm

Cornelia1986 wrote:
chelle784 wrote:
balto13 wrote:chelle784, is that pepper as your profile picture/avatar? she looks simply gorgeous!
Yes it is and thank you :)

+1
I just love her profile pic - such an handsome girl :)

Thank you! It is def these kind comments that make me think it is ok to continue posting updated photos.

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Rahne » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:24 pm

Umm I can understand why you feel it's rude but it's not meant to be... Dutch people are very direct, they like to give their opinion (whether or not it is asked for or wanted) and not twist around to make it look prettier. I guess it's a good thing you can't read Dutch because our 'own' Dog Forums are like war zones, very heated! Please don't take it too personal, you have a nice dog and that's all that matters right ;)

Now I will zip my mouth because you are probably not looking for discussion about early neutering :mrgreen:

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by HiTenshi16 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:28 pm

All dogs have some faults here and there, and wether planned to be used for breeding or not, they will be judged against the standard and some people will make their comments.

I would say Pepper is lovely, but I think you need to post more photos to convince me ;)
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by chelle784 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:30 pm

Yes I think you are right because the way you have said it doesn't offend me - maybe also because your post wasn't negative! It must have been the way the opinion was given and also the fact that it wasn't the first post this person had made with this 'tone' if that makes sense. I kind of thought ok, I got it, you don't like her/think she should have papers etc you have already said this more than once.

I've already said a few times how she has a husky face/ batman mask so I am aware she doesn't fit the standard and other ppl pointing this out is no problem (which they have but I've not had an issue with this at all). Also her legs, tail and ears are too long. There are many faults but I guess it comes down to the way people say it

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Booma » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:34 pm

Like rahne said, I do think it was because of the language barrier, not because it was meant to be rude.
chelle784 wrote:Also her legs, tail and ears are too long.
Na she's just growing! She will grow into those long legs :-P
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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by chelle784 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:36 pm

Rahne wrote:Umm I can understand why you feel it's rude but it's not meant to be... Dutch people are very direct, they like to give their opinion (whether or not it is asked for or wanted) and not twist around to make it look prettier. I guess it's a good thing you can't read Dutch because our 'own' Dog Forums are like war zones, very heated! Please don't take it too personal, you have a nice dog and that's all that matters right ;)

Now I will zip my mouth because you are probably not looking for discussion about early neutering :mrgreen:
Having lived in The Netherlands for 3 years when I was younder and having a Dutch best friend now I would say the Dutch are probably the nicest people anyone could ever meet :) (Opinion shared by my husband who has dutch friends and my mother who also lived in the Netherlands).

Rahne you are also right - I shouldn't take it personally but it is hard too especially if those sort of comments happen every time I put a new photo up and then builds up if that makes sense.

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by Lynwae » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:38 pm

chelle784 wrote:Also her legs, tail and ears are too long.

Let her grow :D
This is normal for puppies to be out of proportions !

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Re: Tamrakar Fred and Ginny

Post by chelle784 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:47 pm

HiTenshi16 wrote:All dogs have some faults here and there, and wether planned to be used for breeding or not, they will be judged against the standard and some people will make their comments.

I would say Pepper is lovely, but I think you need to post more photos to convince me ;)
I guess it is because I haven't seen other dogs judged like that in such a short space of time (we've had her 2 months ish). So it is kind of like your excitement with a new pup gets brought back down, but everyone is basically right - I shouldn't take it personally!

P.S. I hope Ulric is doing ok :)

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