cow hock

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cow hock

Post by balto13 » Sun May 05, 2013 5:44 am

I was wondering how come cow hock (and other hock faults) isn't listed as a fault in the breed standard. I do not know much about cow hock except it does not seem that dogs with cow hock are able to efficiently travel, especially long distances.
I have also read that cow hock can;

* contribute to H/D and/or that it can be an indication of H/D,

* "put a lot of stress on stifle and hocks creating an 'unnatural' movement"

* "When the dog moves the forces of movement will cause the joints to flex laterally, absorbing energy and causing undue stress on the joints. This will wear the joints and tire the dog"

* "...cow hocks can be caused by an imbalance of muscle mass on the inside or outside of the leg. All muscles need to be balanced, in order to minimize the dog’s susceptibility to injury."

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***I do not know if any of this is true,it is what I have been seeing for reasons why other breeds consider cow hocks faults***

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Re: cow hock

Post by Valravn » Sun May 05, 2013 1:11 pm

That doesn't make sense to me since wolves are cow hocked… :?

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Re: cow hock

Post by balto13 » Sun May 05, 2013 2:13 pm

Valravn wrote:That doesn't make sense to me since wolves are cow hocked… :?
guessing you didn't read the last part of my post :lol:
balto13 wrote:
***I do not know if any of this is true,it is what I have been seeing for reasons why other breeds consider cow hocks faults***
Also, is this such an important wolf trait that we are not willing to sacrifice it for the ability to work? to clarify I am not saying that tams should be bred to do one particular "job" or "work" just wondering why it's not written ... guess it won't be until its decided on what the purpose of the Tamaskan Dog is.

*edit: so a slight cow hock would be okay, because most people use their dog as a working companion? much like the saarloos?

Poor Tamaskan, over a decade old and "no purpose" :lol: (kidding, bad joke, but kidding)

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Re: cow hock

Post by Valravn » Sun May 05, 2013 6:20 pm

No, I read it. I just don't understand why they think it's such a *major* fault. If cow hocks were such a problem then why would wolves have them?
Maybe they are talking about exaggerated cow hocks?

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Re: cow hock

Post by balto13 » Mon May 06, 2013 4:04 am

I assume cow hocks serve a purpose for a wild animal, which is why wolves naturally have them, and I think that straight hocks are definitely man made. I don't know why some breeds are allowed to have them and some aren't - I assume it's the purpose of the dog, so maybe *slight* cow hocks would be too much of an issue? I don't know, I find it interesting because I have found some people who say that cow hocks are not good for some things, and aren't an issue for others.

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Re: cow hock

Post by darazan » Tue May 14, 2013 12:42 am

From what pictures I can find, it seems that wolves don't have exaggerated cow hocks, although I really can't be certain. However, if in dogs cow hocks are associated with an increase in H/D, then I do not see any reason to include them, even if they are found in wolves. I believe Tamaskans should be able to be working dogs but also companion dogs, not just one or the other. If their structure and temperament as outlined in the breed standard allows them that ability, then I don't think it should be messed with too much. But I do think that anything that takes away from the purpose and function of the breed should be listed in the breed standard as a fault so that there is no confusion or misunderstanding as to what is and is not acceptable within the breed. Especially when considering structural faults concerning potential health risks for the breed.
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Re: cow hock

Post by balto13 » Tue May 14, 2013 10:47 am

darazan wrote:From what pictures I can find, it seems that wolves don't have exaggerated cow hocks, although I really can't be certain. However, if in dogs cow hocks are associated with an increase in H/D, then I do not see any reason to include them, even if they are found in wolves. I believe Tamaskans should be able to be working dogs but also companion dogs, not just one or the other. If their structure and temperament as outlined in the breed standard allows them that ability, then I don't think it should be messed with too much. But I do think that anything that takes away from the purpose and function of the breed should be listed in the breed standard as a fault so that there is no confusion or misunderstanding as to what is and is not acceptable within the breed. Especially when considering structural faults concerning potential health risks for the breed.
I am glad somebody else is on the same page as I because I felt like a loon at first :)

I think some shepherd breeds and the saarloos are allowed to have *slight* cow hocks, but I don't know how good of examples these are for health (though both are in the tamaskan).

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Re: cow hock

Post by AZDehlin » Tue May 14, 2013 4:57 pm

Both my Zephyr and Noque are very slightly cow hocked. Doesn't effect Zephyr's workability pulling the sled at all, he always wants to go further and longer than the older lead dogs I have been training him with, he also has good hips.

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Re: cow hock

Post by balto13 » Tue May 14, 2013 9:40 pm

AZDehlin wrote:Both my Zephyr and Noque are very slightly cow hocked. Doesn't effect Zephyr's workability pulling the sled at all, he always wants to go further and longer than the older lead dogs I have been training him with, he also has good hips.
but before I even posted this topic you told me cow hocks were not good
for work ability cow hock is out of the question, a puppy with cow hocks goes to a pet home automatically
so does that mean cow hocks are now okay and puppies with cow hocks can go to breeding homes depending on severity?
Siberian huskies and Malamutes aren't allowed to be cow hocked, but to be honest I don't know why which is what I am trying to figure out - I am guessing that to be a working sled dog by AKC standards cow hocks are out. But, if that's not what we are looking or working towards than slight cow hocks are fine because other breeds who don't pull sleds are allowed to have slight cow hocks? maybe only show dogs can't have cow hocks?


Malamute
Any indication of unsoundness in legs and feet, front or rear, standing or moving, is to be considered a serious fault. Faults under this provision would be splay-footedness, cowhocks, bad pasterns, straight shoulders, lack of angulation, stilted gait (or any gait that isn't balanced, strong and steady), ranginess, shallowness, ponderousness, lightness of bone, and poor overall proportion.
Siberian Husky
Faults--Straight stifles, cow-hocks, too narrow or too wide in the rear.
and Akita's, I don't know how traditional they are used for pulling sleds but I feel I have read somewhere that they have been used before
Stifle moderately bent and hocks well let down, turning neither in nor out.

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Re: cow hock

Post by AZDehlin » Tue May 14, 2013 11:13 pm

balto13 wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:Both my Zephyr and Noque are very slightly cow hocked. Doesn't effect Zephyr's workability pulling the sled at all, he always wants to go further and longer than the older lead dogs I have been training him with, he also has good hips.
but before I even posted this topic you told me cow hocks were not good
for work ability cow hock is out of the question, a puppy with cow hocks goes to a pet home automatically
so does that mean cow hocks are now okay and puppies with cow hocks can go to breeding homes depending on severity?
Siberian huskies and Malamutes aren't allowed to be cow hocked, but to be honest I don't know why which is what I am trying to figure out - I am guessing that to be a working sled dog by AKC standards cow hocks are out. But, if that's not what we are looking or working towards than slight cow hocks are fine because other breeds who don't pull sleds are allowed to have slight cow hocks? maybe only show dogs can't have cow hocks?


Malamute
Any indication of unsoundness in legs and feet, front or rear, standing or moving, is to be considered a serious fault. Faults under this provision would be splay-footedness, cowhocks, bad pasterns, straight shoulders, lack of angulation, stilted gait (or any gait that isn't balanced, strong and steady), ranginess, shallowness, ponderousness, lightness of bone, and poor overall proportion.
Siberian Husky
Faults--Straight stifles, cow-hocks, too narrow or too wide in the rear.
and Akita's, I don't know how traditional they are used for pulling sleds but I feel I have read somewhere that they have been used before
Stifle moderately bent and hocks well let down, turning neither in nor out.

There is nothing in the tamaskan standard regarding cow hocks, most breeders of working dogs I have talked to say it hurts the workability and it can be bad for hips. I guess it depends on severity too, I didn't even notice my pups had a very slight cow hock until I had my vet look over my dogs and give me some structural notes this last vet visit. If it is a visual apparent like the picture above I would give pup to pet home automatically.

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Re: cow hock

Post by balto13 » Tue May 14, 2013 11:32 pm

AZDehlin wrote:There is nothing in the tamaskan standard regarding cow hocks
which is why I am so curious and asking so many questions about it
AZDehlin wrote:most breeders of working dogs I have talked to say it hurts the workability and it can be bad for hips.
that's what I have seen and heard as well, I think cow hocks are okay for wolves the same way being aloof around strangers and having high prey drive works for them - in a way that might be suitable for nature, but not so much for domestication.
AZDehlin wrote:I guess it depends on severity too, I didn't even notice my pups had a very slight cow hock until I had my vet look over my dogs and give me some structural notes this last vet visit. If it is a visual apparent like the picture above I would give pup to pet home automatically.
when I read other breed standards I feel that they are written almost to the "T" what a dog should do, act and look like - to the point that if somebody read it out loud you could visualize the dog in your head (I may be kookoo). With that in mind would it be better to say that "very slight/ not visually apparent cow hocks" are acceptable? Because even at "slightly" (not "very slightly") I can still see a cow hocked dog in my head.

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Re: cow hock

Post by AZDehlin » Wed May 15, 2013 12:10 am

You should be able to visualize the dog through the standard... Tamaskan standard is lacking but it will get there I am sure of it.

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Re: cow hock

Post by darazan » Thu May 16, 2013 3:10 am

balto13 wrote:
when I read other breed standards I feel that they are written almost to the "T" what a dog should do, act and look like - to the point that if somebody read it out loud you could visualize the dog in your head (I may be kookoo). With that in mind would it be better to say that "very slight/ not visually apparent cow hocks" are acceptable? Because even at "slightly" (not "very slightly") I can still see a cow hocked dog in my head.
I definitely think you should be able to visualize how a dog should look by reading the standard (assuming you understand all the terminology of course). In such a case as cow hocks, I think that labeling them as a fault may be better than saying "as long as they are very slight or not visually apparent it's acceptable." After all, such a thing might get worse with subsequent generations if the line of thinking is that cow hocks are okay as long as they're very slight. I worry about that line of acceptable severity moving as time goes on. Certainly, I think such discussion is good and important to the future of the Tamaskan breed.

I would very much like to see the Tamaskan standard become more in line with other breed standards as far as formatting and depth of information. No dog will ever meet the breed standard 100% (nature just isn't that way), but a standard that's well put together and informative describes the ideal dog of that breed and is a goal to be met. The breed standard should have the goals of the breed in mind, including health and temperament along with structure, and promote those goals with breeders and the community at large.
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Re: cow hock

Post by balto13 » Thu May 16, 2013 4:11 am

darazan wrote:
balto13 wrote:
when I read other breed standards I feel that they are written almost to the "T" what a dog should do, act and look like - to the point that if somebody read it out loud you could visualize the dog in your head (I may be kookoo). With that in mind would it be better to say that "very slight/ not visually apparent cow hocks" are acceptable? Because even at "slightly" (not "very slightly") I can still see a cow hocked dog in my head.
I definitely think you should be able to visualize how a dog should look by reading the standard (assuming you understand all the terminology of course). In such a case as cow hocks, I think that labeling them as a fault may be better than saying "as long as they are very slight or not visually apparent it's acceptable." After all, such a thing might get worse with subsequent generations if the line of thinking is that cow hocks are okay as long as they're very slight. I worry about that line of acceptable severity moving as time goes on. Certainly, I think such discussion is good and important to the future of the Tamaskan breed.

very well put, I am glad you understand where I am coming from even though I am not very articulate :lol:

what are your thoughts on cow hocks being acceptable because wolves, and other wolfy breeds have them (such as the saarloos)? Do you think excluding cow hocks would affect the wolf like appearance? If more wolf dogs are added such as saarloos, czech, or just low content wolf hybrids cow hocks will pop up, and if its a fault then most likely puppies from those dogs could not breed (if they too had cow hocks). I assume it depends on what the over all purpose of the tamaskan ends up being when it is presented to a kennel, or the standard is finished.

I think slight cow hocks would be acceptable for dogs who would be placed in one of these categories of a recognized kennel; misc, non sporting, utility, herding ( shepherds & saarloos is in this group) but I am not sure how it would fair if tamsaksans were to be considered working sled dogs because most arctic type breeds who are in the working category are not allowed to be cow hocked.

The purpose of the tamaskan will probably play one of the major (if not the biggest) roles of forming a standard. That's a whole new can of worms though ;)

FCI Saarloos standard
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... b99_en.doc
UKC Saarloos standard
http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/Breeds/Saarloosewolfdog
HINDQUARTERS : Normal position of pelvis. Due to low tail set on, which is often accentuated by a slight depression, the pelvis, however often appears to be placed more obliquely. The angulation of the hindquarters is in balcance with the angulation of the forequarters. The light movement, typical of the breed, is very dependant on the correct angulation of stifle and hock. The slightest deviation prevents this typical movement. Slight cow-hocks are permitted when standing.
Upper thigh : Normal length and breadth, strongly muscled.
Stifle : Angulation not exaggerated.
Hock joint : Angulation must not be exaggerated. Bones and muscles permit optimal stretching of hock joints.
Hocks : Sufficiently long (not short), medium slope.
Hind feet : Well developed and well arched.

and an article that Rahne posted on the facebook debate group about wolves & cow hocks
http://www.floridalupine.org/publicatio ... t_2011.pdf
Rear usually cow hocked; slight bend at hock

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Re: cow hock

Post by darazan » Thu May 16, 2013 4:34 am

balto13 wrote:
what are your thoughts on cow hocks being acceptable because wolves, and other wolfy breeds have them (such as the saarloos)? Do you think excluding cow hocks would affect the wolf like appearance?
It seems that cow hocks affect the gait of the animal, and are what give wolves that in-line kind of track. So while I don't think overall appearance would be diminished by the exclusion of cow hocks, it would certainly affect how they move. As far as that goes, I think it really would depend on the purpose of the Tamaskan, as you said. If, as far as working ability in the Tamaskan goes, the breed wants to go more in the direction of a sled-dog, then no, I don't think cow hocks would be appropriate for the Tamaskan. If the working ability goes more in the direction of a herding dog, then slight cow hocks may be acceptable.
HINDQUARTERS : Normal position of pelvis. Due to low tail set on, which is often accentuated by a slight depression, the pelvis, however often appears to be placed more obliquely. The angulation of the hindquarters is in balcance with the angulation of the forequarters. The light movement, typical of the breed, is very dependant on the correct angulation of stifle and hock. The slightest deviation prevents this typical movement. Slight cow-hocks are permitted when standing.
Upper thigh : Normal length and breadth, strongly muscled.
Stifle : Angulation not exaggerated.
Hock joint : Angulation must not be exaggerated. Bones and muscles permit optimal stretching of hock joints.
Hocks : Sufficiently long (not short), medium slope.
Hind feet : Well developed and well arched.
I think it's important to note in this breed standard that it states "slight cow-hocks are permitted when standing." To me, that seems to say that in other situations, the cow-hock is slight enough that it is not visible. It is not exaggerated.

Is the Saarloos used as a sled pulling dog at all?
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Re: cow hock

Post by balto13 » Thu May 16, 2013 5:09 am

darazan wrote:I think it's important to note in this breed standard that it states "slight cow-hocks are permitted when standing." To me, that seems to say that in other situations, the cow-hock is slight enough that it is not visible. It is not exaggerated.
agreed, it is an important point to make, but cow hocks are still allowed to a degree. Maybe because there is some wolf in their background and so there were so many dogs/pups with cow hocks?
darazan wrote:Is the Saarloos used as a sled pulling dog at all?
from what I know of they have not been, nor was pulling sleds apart of the original idea when Mr. Leendert Saarloos started the breed. I think he originally wanted them to be seeing eye dogs but they were a little too shy around strangers, so now they are intelligent, outdoorsy companions.

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Re: cow hock

Post by darazan » Thu May 16, 2013 7:05 am

balto13 wrote:
darazan wrote:Is the Saarloos used as a sled pulling dog at all?
from what I know of they have not been, nor was pulling sleds apart of the original idea when Mr. Leendert Saarloos started the breed. I think he originally wanted them to be seeing eye dogs but they were a little too shy around strangers, so now they are intelligent, outdoorsy companions.
Well, then for me the decision on whether or not cow hocks are appropriate for Tamaskans really lies with their purpose and what kind of working ability people want in the breed. I do understand that some simply want a companion dog, and I see no reason why a Tamaskan can't have the ability to do both, it just needs to have the structure for the job and the temperament for the home. As you said earlier, purpose will influence structure, so I think this is really something to hammer down if we are to ever have a solid breed standard and a consistent breed to go along with it. So, what are your thoughts on breed purpose with this in mind? I remember in the "What is the purpose of the Tamaskan Dog?" thread that you wanted to see something akin to a softer, more obedient husky. Does that mean that you would want Tamaskans to do sled-dog work?

Another thing that I was just wondering about is what are the benefits of cow hocks? Are they better for specific work than straight or other hocks? Would having a dog with straight hocks as opposed to cow hocks detriment the dog in that kind of work?
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Re: cow hock

Post by balto13 » Thu May 16, 2013 9:58 am

No, sorry if I gave that impression but I personally do not want a husky like breed. Lol if somebody is taking their personal line that way I don't mind, but for the breed as a whole I think there is already a lot of husky like tendencies that "we" could work on. I want people to be able to "work" their dog, but I don't want the breed to develop a *need* to be worked. Something I do want though is a home companion who is happy hiking

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Re: cow hock

Post by balto13 » Thu May 16, 2013 12:15 pm

balto13 wrote:No, sorry if I gave that impression but I personally do not want a husky like breed. Lol if somebody is taking their personal line that way I don't mind, but for the breed as a whole I think there aren't many who a is already a lot of husky like tendencies that "we" could work on. I want people to be able to "work" their dog, but I don't want the breed to develop a *need* to be worked. Something I do want though is a home companion who is happy hiking
Edit: this discussion got a little out of hand on Facebook once, so if you would like yo know more of my personal feelings on the purpose matter Darzan, please PM me :) but I think we have hit the main point, cow hock acceptance is tied to purpose, and I think "we" are on our way there. And if this is all messed up and doesn't make sense I will fix it/ re word to articulate better when I get to a comp, writing this on a phone is a hassle :(

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Re: cow hock

Post by TerriHolt » Thu May 16, 2013 12:37 pm

balto13 wrote:
balto13 wrote:No, sorry if I gave that impression but I personally do not want a husky like breed. Lol if somebody is taking their personal line that way I don't mind, but for the breed as a whole I think there aren't many who a is already a lot of husky like tendencies that "we" could work on. I want people to be able to "work" their dog, but I don't want the breed to develop a *need* to be worked. Something I do want though is a home companion who is happy hiking
Edit: this discussion got a little out of hand on Facebook once, so if you would like yo know more of my personal feelings on the purpose matter Darzan, please PM me :) but I think we have hit the main point, cow hock acceptance is tied to purpose, and I think "we" are on our way there. And if this is all messed up and doesn't make sense I will fix it/ re word to articulate better when I get to a comp, writing this on a phone is a hassle :(

Lol, discussions have a habit of doing that :lol: , that's why i'm mostly a silent watcher (my written words don't come out how i mean them).

I do think cow hock is tied to purpose. I tried to get a pic of how my boy stands but it didn't really show that well.

I'll reserve this space for it anyway but it looked a bit like the second pic down on the left but only about half that.
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

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Re: cow hock

Post by balto13 » Thu May 16, 2013 1:19 pm

TerriHolt wrote:
balto13 wrote:
balto13 wrote:No, sorry if I gave that impression but I personally do not want a husky like breed. Lol if somebody is taking their personal line that way I don't mind, but for the breed as a whole I think there aren't many who a is already a lot of husky like tendencies that "we" could work on. I want people to be able to "work" their dog, but I don't want the breed to develop a *need* to be worked. Something I do want though is a home companion who is happy hiking
Edit: this discussion got a little out of hand on Facebook once, so if you would like yo know more of my personal feelings on the purpose matter Darzan, please PM me :) but I think we have hit the main point, cow hock acceptance is tied to purpose, and I think "we" are on our way there. And if this is all messed up and doesn't make sense I will fix it/ re word to articulate better when I get to a comp, writing this on a phone is a hassle :(

Lol, discussions have a habit of doing that :lol: , that's why i'm mostly a silent watcher (my written words don't come out how i mean them).

I do think cow hock is tied to purpose. I tried to get a pic of how my boy stands but it didn't really show that well.

I'll reserve this space for it anyway but it looked a bit like the second pic down on the left but only about half that.

They do, especially when it comes to the direction of the breed. Like I said, if people want to add husky to their personal line there is not much I can do about it. But on that some token I hope they respect others who want to add some low content wolf in their lines. In the end it would be better if people worked together and sacrificed here and there to make sure the breed doesn't split again.

The big question is purpose. As much as some might want to hold onto the sled dog history of tams, how many? and how many want to use them for sled dogs in the future? how many want other things for them? I wish there was a poll up to see what people use their for now, and want for their future tams.

not that tams who aren't sled dogs will turn into a fat stupid mush pile to look cute, far from it, but why does it have to be one extreme or the other? What is so insulting about them not being "working"? There are plenty of breeds who aren't in that category and can hike, train, and don't need to work ... another can of worms I am trying (failing) not to touch. :lol:

Guess ultimately cow hocks(slight or not) being accepted as a apart of the standard will depend on purpose

working/sled dog = probably not okay (going off of other working breeds)

other = might be okay

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Re: cow hock

Post by darazan » Thu May 16, 2013 11:31 pm

balto13 wrote:
balto13 wrote:No, sorry if I gave that impression but I personally do not want a husky like breed. Lol if somebody is taking their personal line that way I don't mind, but for the breed as a whole I think there aren't many who a is already a lot of husky like tendencies that "we" could work on. I want people to be able to "work" their dog, but I don't want the breed to develop a *need* to be worked. Something I do want though is a home companion who is happy hiking
Edit: this discussion got a little out of hand on Facebook once, so if you would like yo know more of my personal feelings on the purpose matter Darzan, please PM me :) but I think we have hit the main point, cow hock acceptance is tied to purpose, and I think "we" are on our way there. And if this is all messed up and doesn't make sense I will fix it/ re word to articulate better when I get to a comp, writing this on a phone is a hassle :(
Oh I was just genuinely curious on what you think the purpose of the Tamaskan should be, I wasn't trying to get into a big debate or anything like that so I'm sorry if it came across that way and that I misunderstood your post in the other thread. I just really like hearing other people's opinions on things like that and seeing how the community views the Tamaskan and its future.

I do definitely agree that we have come to point regarding cow hocks that it really depends on the purpose of the breed whether or not they would be acceptable.

Any TDR Committee and/or breeder thoughts on the subject?
-Crystal

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Re: cow hock

Post by Hawthorne » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:19 pm

Cow hocks are a fault in most (if not all) working breeds. It is true that if the dog is cow hocked, they are more prone to hip dysplasia because the weaker joint in the hock causes the rest of the joints up the leg, ultimately the hip taking the brunt of the force.

I won't send pups with slipped or cow hocks to breeding homes. If we let this go, it wouldn't be out of the question to think that the Tamaskan could end up like the German Shepherd Dog--which is absolutely horrendous.

Cow hocks are an orthopedic nightmare--you're setting your dog up for problems long term--especially if they actually work. They won't be able to do their job very long!
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Re: cow hock

Post by Hawthorne » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:33 pm

darazan wrote:
balto13 wrote:
what are your thoughts on cow hocks being acceptable because wolves, and other wolfy breeds have them (such as the saarloos)? Do you think excluding cow hocks would affect the wolf like appearance?

No, no, no! First of all, cow hocks are a structural fault. For herding dogs, too. They can and will cause orthopedic problems. And being cow hocked does not allow a dog to single track easier. None of my dogs are cow hocked, yet they single track. I personally don't feel that having cow hocks adds to the breed looking more like a wolf. Above all, the dog must be healthy to be bred from, and cow hocks are not good for proper movement.

I just sat through two dog shows with my mentor and the biggest problem in the working and herding breeds are hocks. I don't think we should say "slight is okay" -- otherwise you open the breed up to "what is the meaning of the word 'slight'?"

Allowing certain attributes "just for looks" is a very dangerous road to go down. Would you allow yellow eyes if it meant the dog would get cancer? I hope your answer would be no! So why would we allow a structural fault just for looks? Even of "we" don't consider the Tamaskan a "working breed" structural faults are still detrimental to any dog.

And I do want to hold on to the sled pulling ability of this breed. They were never insane racing dogs. I don't want them to become insane sled racing dogs. There IS a different kind of sled dog out there: one used as a RECREATION type dog. THAT is what I want. My biggest fear, and my biggest concern is that if the Tamaskan does not have a job or jobs, then it has no purpose. Without a purpose, there is no need to dictate structure. Without that structure, then anything becomes acceptable. An all around working dog (hiking, skijoring, canicross, tracking, obedience, agility) IS a job!

The standard needs to be added to. A lot! I know breeders in Europe may beg to differ, but here in the western world, things are done differently. I've been spending time trying to reverse engineer this breed. What is this part for? What is that part for? And what if you put all of those parts together--what does that mean? And does the whole actually add up to the original stated purpose of the breed? I have been reading books, spending time with judges, spending time at shows...there really is nothing out there like us! We are very different structurally from huskies. And thank goodness we are very different from the AKC German Shepherd (freak show!!!)
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Re: cow hock

Post by Hawthorne » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:18 am

Per McDowell Lyon "The Dog In Action" pp. 96-97 cow hocks will not allow a dog to single track. We want our dogs to single track, therefore cow hocks should be a fault. :)
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Re: cow hock

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:33 am

Hawthorne wrote:Per McDowell Lyon "The Dog In Action" pp. 96-97 cow hocks will not allow a dog to single track. We want our dogs to single track, therefore cow hocks should be a fault. :)
Many wolves and high content wolfdogs are cow hocked though... and are still able to single track...

Boogie & Senni:
Image
Wolves back legs have a significant cow hock look to them when at a standstill.
http://yamnuskawolfdogsanctuary.com/res ... -and-dogs/
Legs: very long for the dog's overall size. Front legs close together at chest, shoulder blades--as viewed from the back--should be close together, causing knees to be held more in towards the chest. Toes pointing slightly out(rather than pointing forward like a dog). Back legs are 'cow hocked'. Unusually long pasterns.
http://www.wolfdogproject.com/ID1.htm
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Re: cow hock

Post by arianwenarie » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:23 am

Yes, it's true that wolves have cow hocks. But what about the overall skeletal structure between the dog and the wolf? Is there a significant difference in the way wolves are 'built' versus dogs to where they're fine with the cow hocks, but not so for dogs?

We're really only looking at a part of the whole picture: the cow hocks. :P

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Re: cow hock

Post by Hawthorne » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:32 pm

I will select against them as they are considered a structural fault in working dogs.
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Re: cow hock

Post by Tatzel » Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:19 pm

Hawthorne wrote:I will select against them as they are considered a structural fault in working dogs.
Pardon for entering the discussion just like that, but who said that they are bad for a dog's sturcture?
There are so many things considered a fault in so many dog breeds that does not add to the healthiness of the breed (but rather worsens it).
Like the GSD breeders who breed banana backs and people who breed rhodresian ridgebacks with ridges claim that both these traits make the dogs better at their job - when it really doesn't. I think we all know the banana backs and resulting froglegs add to hip and joint problems, while the ridge may come with the open back syndrome.

So sorry, just because it's written down somewhere that cow hooks are 'supposely' bad for the hips, I won't buy it.
Is there any legitimate study/research on this?

Because honestly nature is still the best at selecting and shaping traits that work. Since wolves have these cow hooks, then those can not be bad for their hips, can they?
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Re: cow hock

Post by arianwenarie » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:07 am

Tatzel wrote:Because honestly nature is still the best at selecting and shaping traits that work. Since wolves have these cow hooks, then those can not be bad for their hips, can they?
That's what I was wondering...which is why I brought up the question in my previous post:
arianwenarie wrote:But what about the overall skeletal structure between the dog and the wolf? Is there a significant difference in the way wolves are 'built' versus dogs to where they're fine with the cow hocks, but not so for dogs?

We're really only looking at a part of the whole picture: the cow hocks.

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Re: cow hock

Post by Hawthorne » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:38 pm

Yes, McDowell Lyon and Patricia Trotter both discuss cow hocks as a fault in working dogs in their texts. I have consulted a 20+ year veteran in Malamutes who also says they are a fault. The working line we will be crossing with (Points Unknown) considers them a fault; my mentor, a herding / working dog judge, a 20+ year veteran of a herding breed, Bearded Collies, consider them a fault.
I can dig up quotes if you wish.
I appreciate your input but nature does also produce things that are not beneficial nor harmful. If a trait is neutral the animals with it will go on living, yes. But just because it exists in nature does not mean it is perfect. I do follow your reasoning--but I would just as soon not breed something that is known as a structural fault with the understanding that it is healthier for the dogs. Do we really need cow hocks to look "more wolfy"? I would say no. I don't think most people even know what they're looking at.

Oh, but in general, issues with one bone/ joint will cause more stress on the next joint up the line: so in this case: patellas or knees. There is increased risk of luxating patellas in dogs that have cow hocks. Once that joint is compromised, then we move up to the hip.

For me, at least, "fault" translates to lack of joint and structural health.
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Re: cow hock

Post by techigirl78 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:10 pm

I have a mixed breed puppy who has cow hocks. It is more noticeable when he is just standing, but it is straighter on walks. My vet said there does not necessarily need to be a relationship to other issues and I could have his hips tested specifically if I desire. Looking up information online seemed to confirm, there are different viewpoints though. Also, my vet said it could just be because he is a puppy and he can grow out of them as well or they may become less noticeable. His seems to be getting better not worse as he gets older - he is only 6.5 months.

There is different degrees of cow hocks and at times it can pose issues for the dog from what I read, but not necessarily. Yet, if you take dogs with slight cow hocks and keep breeding them, I wonder if it increases the chances for them to produce puppies with severe cow hocks that would disable the animal? To minimize risk of debilitated puppies, maybe that is why they indicate it as a fault? Just my guess as a uneducated person.

My cow hocked puppy is fixed as he was a rescue dog, but my vet seems to think he will be good for recreational sleding, joring, and bike riding. I am not sure what my vet would say if I wanted to turn him in to a full blown sled dog though.

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Re: cow hock

Post by Cornelia1986 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:51 am

Sylvaen wrote:Boogie & Senni:
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Wahhhhh - I want one of them :D This are pure wolfes no wolfdogs?! Beautiful animals! Where did you get this pic from?
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Re: cow hock

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:04 am

Cornelia1986 wrote:Wahhhhh - I want one of them :D This are pure wolfes no wolfdogs?! Beautiful animals! Where did you get this pic from?
Boogie is a high content wolfdog and Senni is from a litter that Boogie had with his own daughter. So Senni is about 75% wolfdog.

Boogie (aka Ivan) is one of the wolfdog ancestors behind some of the Foundation Dogs of the Tamaskan breed. He is the sire of Valko (aka Whitefang): http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/breed-info/ ... /whitefang

You can read more info here, in The "No Wolf" Tamaskan History Facebook Group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/176807493391/
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Re: cow hock

Post by Cornelia1986 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:10 am

Sylvaen wrote:
Cornelia1986 wrote:Wahhhhh - I want one of them :D This are pure wolfes no wolfdogs?! Beautiful animals! Where did you get this pic from?
Boogie is a high content wolfdog and Senni is from a litter that Boogie had with his own daughter. So Senni is about 75% wolfdog.

Boogie (aka Ivan) is one of the wolfdog ancestors behind some of the Foundation Dogs of the Tamaskan breed. He is the sire of Valko (aka Whitefang): http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/breed-info/ ... /whitefang

You can read more info here, in The "No Wolf" Tamaskan History Facebook Group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/176807493391/

It crossed my mind that it could be Boogie the foundation dog :) But I never saw a pic of him... I still have to mail you - doing the afternoon layer today and will find some time tomorrow (I hope) :D
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Re: cow hock

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:11 am

Cornelia1986 wrote:It crossed my mind that it could be Boogie the foundation dog :) But I never saw a pic of him...
Oh in that case I definitely recommend that you join the FB Group, there are lots of nice photos of him (and the other Polar Speed dogs). :D :D
Cornelia1986 wrote:I still have to mail you - doing the afternoon layer today and will find some time tomorrow (I hope) :D
OK :)
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