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external recognition/registration

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:09 pm
by AngieH
Just curious;

In light of the shenanigans of the former breed secretary and the vulnerability of registration documentation, has the TDR committee made any investigations in using the services of an external registration service?

examples:
http://www.akc.org/reg/fss_details.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_R ... ssociation

http://www.fci.be/home.asp?lang=en

I suspect much research would be needed to select a registry that would compliment the needs and goals of the TDR, but subjecting itself to a higher authority, the TDR could repair a lot of the damage to it's reputation and display it's commitment to transparency and authenticity.

I know much has been said re: not wanting to apply for AKC or KC recognition, but there are rare breed registries that support smaller populations and legitimize rare breeds. The TDR would still be the breed club and be able to enforce it's own breeding protocols, rules and each country's club would still operate under it's own by-laws and constitution so an external registry would give authenticity and legitimacy but not interfere with breed club management.

What, if anything, has been considered regarding this?

Re: external recognition/registration

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:14 pm
by nivenj
AngieH wrote:Just curious;

In light of the shenanigans of the former breed secretary and the vulnerability of registration documentation, has the TDR committee made any investigations in using the services of an external registration service?

examples:
http://www.akc.org/reg/fss_details.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_R ... ssociation

http://www.fci.be/home.asp?lang=en

I suspect much research would be needed to select a registry that would compliment the needs and goals of the TDR, but subjecting itself to a higher authority, the TDR could repair a lot of the damage to it's reputation and display it's commitment to transparency and authenticity.

I know much has been said re: not wanting to apply for AKC or KC recognition, but there are rare breed registries that support smaller populations and legitimize rare breeds. The TDR would still be the breed club and be able to enforce it's own breeding protocols, rules and each country's club would still operate under it's own by-laws and constitution so an external registry would give authenticity and legitimacy but not interfere with breed club management.

What, if anything, has been considered regarding this?
I agree, personally though, i think the TDR should be that registration service, but that means it needs to be run without conflict of interest, which would pretty much mean Breeders would be excluded.

Re: external recognition/registration

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:58 pm
by Hawthorne
I've asked this question of many "outside" breeders. "Why on earth would we want to register with the AKC?"

Some understand why we wouldn't, and others think we're crazy for not wanting to try and eventually obtain it.

I guess that's why I'm excited to potentially participate in the Rare Breed Club of Southwestern Ontario's show. Because they'd allow us to show our Tams there. Without an independent judge, we don't really have a measure of which dogs are closest to the standard. Without that, are we all just selecting for the traits we personally favor? Why else show dogs? I certainly don't want to put on a suit...but without some type of independent evaluation are we a ship without a rudder? I know we each have our club shows, but in theory the more shows, the more validation...?

Just my thoughts... which are usually way out in la la land, I know...

Re: external recognition/registration

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:33 pm
by Gaby
Hawthorne wrote:I've asked this question of many "outside" breeders. "Why on earth would we want to register with the AKC?"

Some understand why we wouldn't, and others think we're crazy for not wanting to try and eventually obtain it.

I guess that's why I'm excited to potentially participate in the Rare Breed Club of Southwestern Ontario's show. Because they'd allow us to show our Tams there. Without an independent judge, we don't really have a measure of which dogs are closest to the standard. Without that, are we all just selecting for the traits we personally favor? Why else show dogs? I certainly don't want to put on a suit...but without some type of independent evaluation are we a ship without a rudder? I know we each have our club shows, but in theory the more shows, the more validation...?

Just my thoughts... which are usually way out in la la land, I know...
My goal is not to get the breed recognized at all. I do not like the closed studbooks and I wish that nevers happens in the Tamaskan. But about showing, that is the reason I participated with Mila in a dogshow for crossbreeds and not recognized breeds. The jugde was independent and she wrote a nice, long report and judged the dog with help of the Tamaskan standard, that she found on the internet. I hope more Tam owners will do that. ;)

Re: external recognition/registration

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:23 pm
by AngieH
Gaby wrote:
Hawthorne wrote:I've asked this question of many "outside" breeders. "Why on earth would we want to register with the AKC?"

Some understand why we wouldn't, and others think we're crazy for not wanting to try and eventually obtain it.

I guess that's why I'm excited to potentially participate in the Rare Breed Club of Southwestern Ontario's show. Because they'd allow us to show our Tams there. Without an independent judge, we don't really have a measure of which dogs are closest to the standard. Without that, are we all just selecting for the traits we personally favor? Why else show dogs? I certainly don't want to put on a suit...but without some type of independent evaluation are we a ship without a rudder? I know we each have our club shows, but in theory the more shows, the more validation...?

Just my thoughts... which are usually way out in la la land, I know...
My goal is not to get the breed recognized at all. I do not like the closed studbooks and I wish that nevers happens in the Tamaskan. But about showing, that is the reason I participated with Mila in a dogshow for crossbreeds and not recognized breeds. The jugde was independent and she wrote a nice, long report and judged the dog with help of the Tamaskan standard, that she found on the internet. I hope more Tam owners will do that. ;)
I can absolutely see that argument. My personal opinion could be influenced either way regarding *recognition* by a major kennel club.
But that is not the topic.

The topic is not about applying for recognition but securing external, objective registration services. Having an external registering body for the Tamaskan is a step toward legitimacy, accountability and transparancy. All important and valuable things. Wether or not to then close the stud books and apply for recognition is an interesting debate for farther down the road.

If the TDR just registers their own dogs produced by their own members, well that's not saying much. (RPK does that!)
By putting the registry in outside hands, you protect it from the Lynns and Jeanies that may pop up now and then.

No organization can oversee itself with any credibility without answering to a disinterested external party. *Especially* coming out of a scandal.

Re: external recognition/registration

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:53 pm
by Hawthorne
I agree with you Angie. I would think to add credibility, we need someone who is a 3rd party to take care of the Registry. That would mean paying that person, though--I doubt very much that someone would want to take on all that work without compensation. And right now, I don't think the TDR is set up to do payroll of any kind.

The reason why I brought up showing is because the rare breed clubs often have shows. This would be a benefit for registering with them.

As for mixed breed shows, I'll have to look harder for those. I don't know of any in the US--does anyone else?

I certainly don't want to see stud books closed now either--we need more foundation stock--but I think we could still do that with the rare breed registries you mention in your first post, Angie. This is beyond my scope of knowledge. I know two folks involved in other rare breeds who might have an idea how their breed progressed. I would suggest that others try and network with additional rare breed folks to see what their clubs do. No need to reinvent the wheel. :D Okay, now I have a few long emails to write... LOL

Re: external recognition/registration

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:05 pm
by AngieH
Hawthorne wrote:I agree with you Angie. I would think to add credibility, we need someone who is a 3rd party to take care of the Registry. That would mean paying that person, though--I doubt very much that someone would want to take on all that work without compensation. And right now, I don't think the TDR is set up to do payroll of any kind.

The reason why I brought up showing is because the rare breed clubs often have shows. This would be a benefit for registering with them.

As for mixed breed shows, I'll have to look harder for those. I don't know of any in the US--does anyone else?

I certainly don't want to see stud books closed now either--we need more foundation stock--but I think we could still do that with the rare breed registries you mention in your first post, Angie. This is beyond my scope of knowledge. I know two folks involved in other rare breeds who might have an idea how their breed progressed. I would suggest that others try and network with additional rare breed folks to see what their clubs do. No need to reinvent the wheel. :D Okay, now I have a few long emails to write... LOL
That's a good point, Tracy

I think most (reputable) registry services are paid for not by the breed club, but by exacting a registration fee for each dog entered in the registry. Some are set up to be paid by the owner when they send in registration documentation while some are paid by the breeder (who passes the fee allong to the owner in the cost of a puppy) The trick would be in funding the registration costs of the entire present population of Tamaskan.

Of course that will not get any easier. The longer we wait, the more challenging that will become.

Re: external recognition/registration

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:06 pm
by Gaby
Hawthorne wrote:I agree with you Angie. I would think to add credibility, we need someone who is a 3rd party to take care of the Registry. That would mean paying that person, though--I doubt very much that someone would want to take on all that work without compensation. And right now, I don't think the TDR is set up to do payroll of any kind.
Yes, I do agree on that, but I agree with Hawthorne too, the TDR isn't set up to do a payroll now. The best way to do it now I think is the idea that is already there. And that is having more members in the committee, so there won't be a monopoly position for one or two persons. But it would be a good idea for later on I think!

Re: external recognition/registration

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:09 pm
by AngieH
Gaby wrote:
Hawthorne wrote:I agree with you Angie. I would think to add credibility, we need someone who is a 3rd party to take care of the Registry. That would mean paying that person, though--I doubt very much that someone would want to take on all that work without compensation. And right now, I don't think the TDR is set up to do payroll of any kind.
Yes, I do agree on that, but I agree with Hawthorne too, the TDR isn't set up to do a payroll now. The best way to do it now I think is the idea that is already there. And that is having more members in the committee, so there won't be a monopoly position for one or two persons. But it would be a good idea for later on I think!
It's not a payroll situation. The registrar is not an "employee" of the TDR. The registering body is paid through the individual registration fee of each dog. The cost borne by the owner (or in some cases, breeder) of each dog applying for registration.

Re: external recognition/registration

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:18 pm
by Hawthorne
Any idea how much any of these registries charge per pup for registration?

We paid 10 pounds per pup through the TDR.

I think it may also require us to take a closer look at our record - keeping. I believe the AKC (not that we will use them) require specific paperwork done 'their way' for generations before they will even consider a breed for rare breed status. I imagine other registries are the same way. It may be something to look at now, take their document requirements into consideration, and then adhere to the regulations now rather than later when we may decide to use an external registry. It's a lot of wheel spinning--but it could save a lot of heartache in the future. I woulda, coulda, shoulda... ???