WOLF CONTENT

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
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Nino
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:35 pm

AZDehlin wrote:
It will be a while until I can... I plan too when I have the money as he has been by far the most difficult dog I have owned, and now all this. I wonder if the test only picks up north American wolf though if it would come back positive even IF Zephyr was 25% Czech since doesn't Czech come from european wolves?
As far as said earlier he might not check out because of Czech (or just that it would only be 25%), but that would be the interesting thing..
Since Jackal have not been tested, it cannot be said if it is him or his mate that has given the genes to the offspring..
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Molly » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:50 pm

Gaby wrote:In my opinion, it would also be nice if the slogan 'The wolfdog without the wolf' could be changed or removed. People who can't own wolfdogs because they are illegal in the place they live are drawn to this breed because of that slogan, and I don't think that is fair.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Molly » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:54 pm

Nino wrote:I plan on, by the way, doing the test on my own dog,..
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:59 pm

Molly wrote:
Nino wrote:I plan on, by the way, doing the test on my own dog,..
Moi aussi (Me too)
Thumps up for that, your dog have more than enough Oskari (3 times in 4 generations) in his pedigree, so it will also be interesting to see if he checks out positive or negative for content.
Although he is not from the lines that I myself believe is where the genes come from.. :)
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Katlin » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:01 pm

Thank you for the TDR committee disclosing this information.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Molly » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:07 pm

Nino wrote:
Molly wrote:
Nino wrote:I plan on, by the way, doing the test on my own dog,..
Moi aussi (Me too)
Thumps up for that, your dog have more than enough Oskari (3 times in 4 generations) in his pedigree, so it will also be interesting to see if he checks out positive or negative for content.
Although he is not from the lines that I myself believe is where the genes come from.. :)
Dans la lignée de Mas'Khann, il a 2 x Jackal (en consanguinité trés proche) et 2 x Oskari ....-

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:10 pm

Molly wrote:
Nino wrote:[

Thumps up for that, your dog have more than enough Oskari (3 times in 4 generations) in his pedigree, so it will also be interesting to see if he checks out positive or negative for content.
Although he is not from the lines that I myself believe is where the genes come from.. :)
Dans la lignée de Mas'Khann, il a 2 x Jackal (en consanguinité trés proche) et 2 x Oskari ....-
Susi has Oskari as a father too.. Susi being the mother of Jasper who is the father of Mas'kann that makes 3 times - one in Jackal x 2 (because he is the father of both parents) and one in Susi
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:14 pm

I will be surprised if It's from the Oskari line. From what I've been able to find, if Oskari is the same as Polarspeed Oxbow Leve-Neve then he would be an F7 at the most.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:18 pm

nivenj wrote:I will be surprised if It's from the Oskari line. From what I've been able to find, if Oskari is the same as Polarspeed Oxbow Leve-Neve then he would be an F7 at the most.
Thats why I am going to wait until money is a little easer to test my Zephyr. If Oskari is Oxbow Leve-Neve then wouldn't that make my Zephyr a F9?

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:19 pm

nivenj wrote:I will be surprised if It's from the Oskari line. From what I've been able to find, if Oskari is the same as Polarspeed Oxbow Leve-Neve then he would be an F7 at the most.
F7 indeed, but they DO however breed between F generations, making the percentage go up and down ever so often - so you never know :)

and yes Zephyr would be an F9, as would my girl (on that side at least)
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by arianwenarie » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:21 pm

nivenj wrote:I will be surprised if It's from the Oskari line. From what I've been able to find, if Oskari is the same as Polarspeed Oxbow Leve-Neve then he would be an F7 at the most.
Out of curiosity, what documentation are you going by that makes you think Oxbow Leva-Neve is a F7? Links would be awesome! :D

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:23 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
nivenj wrote:I will be surprised if It's from the Oskari line. From what I've been able to find, if Oskari is the same as Polarspeed Oxbow Leve-Neve then he would be an F7 at the most.
Out of curiosity, what documentation are you going by that makes you think Oxbow Leva-Neve is a F7? Links would be awesome! :D
Search his name on google, first link should be to wolfdog.org I believe and his profile, look at pedigree of him, and you will be able to follow his pedigree back to somewhere around the fifties :)
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Rahne » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:23 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
nivenj wrote:I will be surprised if It's from the Oskari line. From what I've been able to find, if Oskari is the same as Polarspeed Oxbow Leve-Neve then he would be an F7 at the most.
Out of curiosity, what documentation are you going by that makes you think Oxbow Leva-Neve is a F7? Links would be awesome! :D
Pedigree Database: http://www.wolfdog.org/site/dbase/d/10973

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:23 pm

Agreed, but the CSV database seems very thorough and lists all F3s and below differently so you can see if there is higher content in the breeding line. The only way I can see Oskari being lower than F7 is if their database is not correct.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by arianwenarie » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:29 pm

Thanks for the link. For some very odd reason, I had it stuck in my mind that Oxbow Leva-Neve was 16 generations removed from pure wolf. :oops:

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by wen » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:46 pm

I'm happy to see that it's now possible to have a mature and constructive conversation : Here it is : transparency didn't seem to have brought trouble, but it seems to have brought more closeness ;)
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:03 pm

One Question... Lynn will you be getting Jodie tested? Seeing as one of her pups is booked to go to Australia and another pup from her has tested positive, Could this effect if Rook will go to australia?

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Katlin » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:11 pm

AZDehlin wrote:One Question... Lynn will you be getting Jodie tested? Seeing as one of her pups is booked to go to Australia and another pup from her has tested positive, Could this effect if Rook will go to australia?
A good question, I'm wondering this as well. Bodie and JJ too...
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:18 pm

Vroni wrote:I think you had to be careful with the word "Hybrid" because they are no Hybrids!
If a false person read this it will be very difficult!

We better can say Wolfdogs instead of Hybrids can't we?
I will have to agree with Vroni here, the word hybrid has caused many misleads in the past not just with wolfdogs but many other other mutts and unrelated animals. Wolfdog is usually a safer word.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tarheel » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:23 pm

AZDehlin wrote:
Kylievr wrote:I'm curious as to how many of the pups from the golden litter (and the others debby mentioned) have been tested. I would like to know if any of these dogs results were "not a wolfdog"
I was also wondering How many dogs have been tested? Has it only been the three that came up positive or there other's that have come back negative?
I have had Alba Daer at Tarheel (Blaze) tested through UC Davis, and his results were he was all DOG.
J & J CHristmas Grinch (Nusia) non-registered, was also tested and her results were she was all DOG.

Please keep in mind to the UC Davis disclaimer, that just becasue there is a lack of wolf genetic markers, does not exclude wolf content. In my opinion, both Blaze and Nusia were 100% dog, and that is what matters to me.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:27 pm

Tarheel wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:
Kylievr wrote:I'm curious as to how many of the pups from the golden litter (and the others debby mentioned) have been tested. I would like to know if any of these dogs results were "not a wolfdog"
I was also wondering How many dogs have been tested? Has it only been the three that came up positive or there other's that have come back negative?
I have had Alba Daer at Tarheel (Blaze) tested through UC Davis, and his results were he was all DOG.
J & J CHristmas Grinch (Nusia) non-registered, was also tested and her results were she was all DOG.

Please keep in mind to the UC Davis disclaimer, that just becasue there is a lack of wolf genetic markers, does not exclude wolf content. In my opinion, both Blaze and Nusia were 100% dog, and that is what matters to me.
Did you test Sequoia or Kana?

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by arianwenarie » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:27 pm

Tarheel wrote:
AZDehlin wrote:
Kylievr wrote:I'm curious as to how many of the pups from the golden litter (and the others debby mentioned) have been tested. I would like to know if any of these dogs results were "not a wolfdog"
I was also wondering How many dogs have been tested? Has it only been the three that came up positive or there other's that have come back negative?
I have had Alba Daer at Tarheel (Blaze) tested through UC Davis, and his results were he was all DOG.
J & J CHristmas Grinch (Nusia) non-registered, was also tested and her results were she was all DOG.

Please keep in mind to the UC Davis disclaimer, that just becasue there is a lack of wolf genetic markers, does not exclude wolf content. In my opinion, both Blaze and Nusia were 100% dog, and that is what matters to me.
Thank you for posting this, John. I am happy to hear that the US line that I am most interested in has a lesser chance of being 'affected'.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:32 pm

I would like to see Heidi tested too..
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:38 pm

Unfortunately Blaze and Nusia are no longer around to influence the genepool but I hope that Sequoia and Kana also have good wolf-free results so that nothing becomes a problem should any future generation pups start behaving wolfish in such a way and the police gets involved.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by arianwenarie » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:44 pm

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:Unfortunately Blaze and Nusia are no longer around to influence the genepool but I hope that Sequoia and Kana also have good wolf-free results so that nothing becomes a problem should any future generation pups start behaving wolfish in such a way and the police gets involved.
That may be the case, but their relatives are still around. ;) Nusia's full brother (from a previous litter), J&J Devil of Piru at Hawthorne (Darwin) will be used as stud to sire White Elk's first litter with their Saxon girl, Sophie.

And we all know about the pups out of Blaze that went to breeding homes (Wave, Freyja and Kana).

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Gaby » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:59 pm

Nino wrote:I would like to see Heidi tested too..
Testing all foundation dogs would be best. The ones from Blustag that I suspect will contain wolfgenes would be Jodie, Bodie, JJ, Skye (although he isn't with us any more) and Heidi regarding their temperaments and looks.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by arianwenarie » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:25 pm

Gaby wrote:
Nino wrote:I would like to see Heidi tested too..
Testing all foundation dogs would be best. The ones from Blustag that I suspect will contain wolfgenes would be Jodie, Bodie, JJ, Skye (although he isn't with us any more) and Heidi regarding their temperaments and looks.
I do not think that Susi nor Dingo will need to be tested as it may be sufficient to only test Jackal. Since Skye is no longer with us, then maybe we could test Summer, who is the full sister to Skye? There's also Charlyn's Tala (Blustag Little Big Wolf) in Texas...though, I don't know if she is still in contact with the Tamaskan community... :?

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:30 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
Gaby wrote:
Nino wrote:I would like to see Heidi tested too..
Testing all foundation dogs would be best. The ones from Blustag that I suspect will contain wolfgenes would be Jodie, Bodie, JJ, Skye (although he isn't with us any more) and Heidi regarding their temperaments and looks.
I do not think that Susi nor Dingo will need to be tested as it may be sufficient to only test Jackal. Since Skye is no longer with us, then maybe we could test Summer, who is the full sister to Skye? There's also Charlyn's Tala (Blustag Little Big Wolf) in Texas...though, I don't know if she is still in contact with the Tamaskan community... :?
As to my knowledge the Germans have split off, so i dunno if they will do test... then again maybe they have already done the test.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:49 pm

Actually I would say testing Dingo would make more sense than testing Jackal.. since he is from a Father Daughter mating on Oskari he is 75% what ever Oskari is (Czech?)
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:59 pm

AZDehlin wrote: As to my knowledge the Germans have split off, so i dunno if they will do test... then again maybe they have already done the test.
Not knowing the reasons behind the Germans splitting, but assuming it had something to do with what is being discussed here, is there any chance for reconciliation. Surely we must be stronger with them than without and vice versa?
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Dallas » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:03 pm

As to my knowledge the Germans have split off, so i dunno if they will do test... then again maybe they have already done the test.
I think I've read somewhere that they tested Summer, though I could be wrong :?
memory fails me once again lol
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by PeterFalk » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 pm

What is the procedure with ones behind this ?
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:58 pm

nivenj wrote:
AZDehlin wrote: As to my knowledge the Germans have split off, so i dunno if they will do test... then again maybe they have already done the test.
Not knowing the reasons behind the Germans splitting, but assuming it had something to do with what is being discussed here, is there any chance for reconciliation. Surely we must be stronger with them than without and vice versa?
I would hope they would come back as I think they have a lot to offer with the dogs they have but, I don't think they will after the denial of possible wolf content, and all the other false stories and lies. I "think" it would take some radical changes beyond what has been made light to day for them to consider, but then again I don't know as my German is not very good and I have not approached them myself.

If the Germans are reading this what would need to be done for you to stick with this breed, many of us wish you wouldn't go your separate way. Well at least I would like to see you stick around and maybe one day have the chance at a pup from your lines.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:03 pm

I also would like to know what it would take. Maybe these could be included (where it makes sense) in the action plan. Our common ground is that we have the best interests of the breed at heart and have been fighting for the same things.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Vuokko » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:13 pm

This issue doesn’t belong to me personally, but I would like to tell you a Finnish perspective to this matter. Now you have evidense that some Tamaskans have wolf in them.

I have been reading this forum just for some days now. I don’t know what you have been told by Finnish people, but these issues haven’t been any kind of secrets here….

Reijo Jääskeläinen (kennel Polar Speed) breeds good working/racing siberian huskies. There is no reason to mix wolf or ceskoslovensky vlcak to siberian huskies to improve working ability, because it doesn’t do that. However he does these mixtures… Why? These wolfdods have been acting wolf in many movies and advertisements. For example Finnish movie ”Suden arvoitus” (The riddle of the wolf) http://www.innerbling.fi/film/02_suden_arvoitus.jpg There was Reijos dogwolves acting wolves in this movie. These pups were mixters: CsV Oskari ( http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoir ... 4/01&R=332 ) X Polar Speed Pauliina wich was pure breed siberian husky ( http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoir ... 1/00&R=270 ) Jackal is one of these puppies. A picture of mother and puppies:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... m=1&itbs=1

He has also a wolfhybrid, Boogie from Alaska. How he got it is another story. He mated Boogie with pure breed siberian husky Blondy av Vargevass ( http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoir ... 0/03&R=270 ) From this combination is Jodie (in Finland called Henki) and Whitefang (in Finland called Valko)

You don’t have to believe me, but I wrote this to clear my conscience. At liest I have tried to tell you, what I know and what is wellknown true here in Finland. What do I mean with ”clear my conscience? I have worked with boobie offsprings and I know what kind of mixters they can be. Even if there was only 25% of Boogie you can see the influence of wolf. If they are sold as dogs and the owners doesn’t know what they have, it can be even dangerous. At least it would cause problems with their behavior.

I don’t wrote more now, because I’m not sure if you let this writing to stay in this forum. Lynn and Jennie are blaming me as a liar, that’s for sure. I don’t care. Now I know, that at least I have tried. If you want to know more what I know, ask me. Lynn knew all about this, when she was buying "dogs" from Reijo

Vuokko

PS. Sorry my english ;)

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AZDehlin » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:21 pm

Vuokko wrote:This issue doesn’t belong to me personally, but I would like to tell you a Finnish perspective to this matter. Now you have evidense that some Tamaskans have wolf in them.

I have been reading this forum just for some days now. I don’t know what you have been told by Finnish people, but these issues haven’t been any kind of secrets here….

Reijo Jääskeläinen (kennel Polar Speed) breeds good working/racing siberian huskies. There is no reason to mix wolf or ceskoslovensky vlcak to siberian huskies to improve working ability, because it doesn’t do that. However he does these mixtures… Why? These wolfdods have been acting wolf in many movies and advertisements. For example Finnish movie ”Suden arvoitus” (The riddle of the wolf) http://www.innerbling.fi/film/02_suden_arvoitus.jpg There was Reijos dogwolves acting wolves in this movie. These pups were mixters: CsV Oskari ( http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoir ... 4/01&R=332 ) X Polar Speed Pauliina wich was pure breed siberian husky ( http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoir ... 1/00&R=270 ) Jackal is one of these puppies. A picture of mother and puppies:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... m=1&itbs=1

He has also a wolfhybrid, Boogie from Alaska. How he got it is another story. He mated Boogie with pure breed siberian husky Blondy av Vargevass ( http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoir ... 0/03&R=270 ) From this combination is Jodie (in Finland called Henki) and Whitefang (in Finland called Valko)

You don’t have to believe me, but I wrote this to clear my conscience. At liest I have tried to tell you, what I know and what is wellknown true here in Finland. What do I mean with ”clear my conscience? I have worked with boobie offsprings and I know what kind of mixters they can be. Even if there was only 25% of Boogie you can see the influence of wolf. If they are sold as dogs and the owners doesn’t know what they have, it can be even dangerous. At least it would cause problems with their behavior.

I don’t wrote more now, because I’m not sure if you let this writing to stay in this forum. Lynn and Jennie are blaming me as a liar, that’s for sure. I don’t care. Now I know, that at least I have tried. If you want to know more what I know, ask me. Lynn knew all about this, when she was buying "dogs" from Reijo

Vuokko

PS. Sorry my english ;)

Many of us are open minded and willing to listen, do you have access to documents or pictures that you can share?

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by TerriHolt » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:25 pm

Share as much as you are permitted to... I can't see posts been removed :D
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There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by WhiteElkStag » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:26 pm

I've been looking around for anything discussing the science behind the wolf-hybrid test, and I can't find any independent research. I can only find what UC Davis is saying about it themselves. I wouldn't recommend that anyone use this test until we can find more information about it.
Ben Premack
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tarheel » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:29 am

WhiteElkStag wrote:I've been looking around for anything discussing the science behind the wolf-hybrid test, and I can't find any independent research. I can only find what UC Davis is saying about it themselves. I wouldn't recommend that anyone use this test until we can find more information about it.
This is the ONLY test available publicly. I have even checked with the Lab (Scidera) who does the Tamaskan DNA analyis. The two labs are located in the same town and they could not provide any information about the UC Davis Lab. If and when more Labs conduct testing on Wolf content in dogs, the price of testing should come down and we would have something to verify these tests as a back up confimation.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Ciaobella » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:35 am

I will hopefully have time to read through this whole post thoroughly tonight (I have only read Debbie's post & some on the first page). I'm conserned about what will happen with those that test positive. This puts owners in such a tight spot. Who knows how this could affect owners and dogs now. Only time will tell but it's such a tragedy that such people can put a wrench on so many lives.
Katurah

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Booma » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:18 am

I know the tests aren't 100%, but how accurate are they? It's a lot of money to pay if it was only 50% accurate for example.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by WhiteElkStag » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:24 am

Kylievr wrote:I know the tests aren't 100%, but how accurate are they? It's a lot of money to pay if it was only 50% accurate for example.
That's the problem Kylievr, there doesn't seem to be ANY information out there about the accuracy or veracity of the tests. This test could theoretically come out positive on a 100th generation Pug while testing negative on a F1 wolfdog, it all seems to be based on random genetic drift and there is no published information about which gene they're looking for or any statistical analysis of their results. Way too much potential to ruin dog's and owner's lives without the proper review.
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www.Facebook.com/WhiteElkTamaskan
Rhea (Saxon Aquila at White Elk), Sophie (Saxon Canis Venatici at White Elk), and Auri (Blufawn Sunshine on My Shoulders at White Elk)

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:25 am

Kylievr wrote:I know the tests aren't 100%, but how accurate are they? It's a lot of money to pay if it was only 50% accurate for example.
This is what I was wondering, cause I wanna know how this will effect Rook going to Australia... Since one of his siblings has tested positive.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:55 am

The test is Only to conclude if wolf markers is present, the risk/chance of wolf markers ia half from every generation, therefore it is unlikely that a pug of 100 generations shows markers.. While an F1 is very likely to do so..
There will most likely always be some tiny risk/chance that a pure bred domestic dog can test positive, but within lets just look at F1 - F5 (bred to dog) if we work with normal simple genetics and marh, which may not be accurate but is good enough to get the idea
F1: 50% risk/chance
F2: 25% risk/chance
F3: 12,5% risk/chance
F4: 6,25% risk/chance
F5: 3,125% risk/chance (this is the generation which my most authorities are considered a domestocated dog)

So as toy see only in normal 5 generation, the risk/chance of wolf content in a dog (without knowing if any of the parents have tested positive) is very slight, which is why it is fair to assume that the dogs who have tested positive (whom are not from the same parents) have at least a high content wolfdog within their last 1-5 generations..

At least that is how I see it..

That a dog shows no wolfmarkers is however not a promise that there is no wolf within the last few generations
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:58 am

That's true Nino, but as far as I recall, the Saarloos is many generations away from the pure wolf so I don't know if any testing from a crossing between that to a pure dog would show any wolf DNA in a saliva test. And like John said, the German Shepherd also had wolves used ages back when the breed was first started. In my opinion, if a positive result for wolf-content found in any mutt was from a known Saarloos or Czech and everyone knows that both of those breeds are now officially domestic dogs, then that mutt should NOT be labelled as a wolfdog regardless how wolf-like it may behave. Honestly, I no longer see those breeds as true wolfdogs anyways.Compared to the Wolf/poodle and many other true wolfdogs owned by several of my friends, those two breeds that many people keep on calling them wolfdogs are dogs and I personally think the "wolf" part should be removed from their names.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sfernan1 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:26 am

I am trying to keep an open mind here. What I am not understanding is that people involved with the foundation dogs don't know if their animals are wolfdogs? I am probably missing something. But whoever owned Jackal, Boogie, Whitefang et al. surely must know about the lineage of their dogs, no?

I feel like the information is still being held back. Where were the foundations dogs purchased / found? where are they now, who do they belong to? What did the owners sell / present them as? I doubt anyone starting a breed would be happy buying " Mutty 5" and "Mongrel 7" off a seller who cannot even begin to estimate what sort of mixes he is dealing with. Also, wolf content doesn't normally just sneak in.

Personally, I am losing a lot of faith here, and cannot help but think how this will affect the owners and breeder who are not privy to a lot of information that is still being withheld. The legal ramifications are too many to get into, none of which leave the owners on good standing with the law.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:11 am

Sfernan1 wrote:I am trying to keep an open mind here. What I am not understanding is that people involved with the foundation dogs don't know if their animals are wolfdogs? I am probably missing something. But whoever owned Jackal, Boogie, Whitefang et al. surely must know about the lineage of their dogs, no?

I feel like the information is still being held back. Where were the foundations dogs purchased / found? where are they now, who do they belong to? What did the owners sell / present them as? I doubt anyone starting a breed would be happy buying " Mutty 5" and "Mongrel 7" off a seller who cannot even begin to estimate what sort of mixes he is dealing with. Also, wolf content doesn't normally just sneak in.

Personally, I am losing a lot of faith here, and cannot help but think how this will affect the owners and breeder who are not privy to a lot of information that is still being withheld. The legal ramifications are too many to get into, none of which leave the owners on good standing with the law.
Debby already helped exposed as much as she knows about for us to see and promised newer information later today on how the community will work on these issues and move forward. Give her some times to write but I am confident that progress is being made.
I still support the breed as a whole. I just hope that the new informations won't spark anymore paranoia.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by BinBin » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:21 am

Hi all,

And first of Debbie, my hat goes off for you. Well done! :) Same goes for John of course.

Now, this may be new to some of you, and rumours for others and some of you kinda knew already. I feel like it is a new dawn and wish you all the best with your breed; like I have said many times before, I have had no sides besides the side of the truth. Tamaskan is a lovely breed and you deserve to know and you deserve to ask. I have a feeling that with these new revelations you will also have a new TDR to support you and your dogs.

I am the person who helped Lynn get her dogs from Reijo, went to Reijo to take pictures and translated their sales. I'm sure you know me by name, and I know what kind of information was usually given when my name came up. :D All in all, this is a long story and will tell you the whole tall tale if you want. But some of it is on the No-Wolf Tamaskan History FaceBook group files already. Like Debbie hinted, we will have hopefully more DNA evidence for you in a short while and all information we get, you will get too. We have some of it already up on the group (e.g. Valko's parental analysis to Blustag Little Moon "Nuuk"). More uploads will follow. In the meantime, you are all VERY welcome to join the group and view the gallery section of the group. There are pictures of Boogie, Blondy, Valko, Oskari and their offspring and relatives, as well as Heidi's relatives in Finland and also pictures of the pure bred siberians used in the CsV mixes. VUokko has worked with Reijo for several seasons so she can tell you more about the individuals than I can. We also have Finnish wolfdog people there so you can ask them more about Valko's offspring here. And we also in contact with Reijo, and can pass your messages to him if you want to ask him something.

Here is the group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/176807493391/ Feel free to use the photos and files for your purpose on this forum too, just mention name of the photographer if you do. If you need larger file size, the photos usually have the name who took it so PM them and it should be available!

Nice to "meet" you all, and feel free to ask me here or on FB if I can help you with anything! :)

Tuuli Salmi
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:44 am

BinBin wrote:Hi all,

And first of Debbie, my hat goes off for you. Well done! :) Same goes for John of course.

Now, this may be new to some of you, and rumours for others and some of you kinda knew already. I feel like it is a new dawn and wish you all the best with your breed; like I have said many times before, I have had no sides besides the side of the truth. Tamaskan is a lovely breed and you deserve to know and you deserve to ask. I have a feeling that with these new revelations you will also have a new TDR to support you and your dogs.

I am the person who helped Lynn get her dogs from Reijo, went to Reijo to take pictures and translated their sales. I'm sure you know me by name, and I know what kind of information was usually given when my name came up. :D All in all, this is a long story and will tell you the whole tall tale if you want. But some of it is on the No-Wolf Tamaskan History FaceBook group files already. Like Debbie hinted, we will have hopefully more DNA evidence for you in a short while and all information we get, you will get too. We have some of it already up on the group (e.g. Valko's parental analysis to Blustag Little Moon "Nuuk"). More uploads will follow. In the meantime, you are all VERY welcome to join the group and view the gallery section of the group. There are pictures of Boogie, Blondy, Valko, Oskari and their offspring and relatives, as well as Heidi's relatives in Finland and also pictures of the pure bred siberians used in the CsV mixes. VUokko has worked with Reijo for several seasons so she can tell you more about the individuals than I can. We also have Finnish wolfdog people there so you can ask them more about Valko's offspring here. And we also in contact with Reijo, and can pass your messages to him if you want to ask him something.

Here is the group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/176807493391/ Feel free to use the photos and files for your purpose on this forum too, just mention name of the photographer if you do. If you need larger file size, the photos usually have the name who took it so PM them and it should be available!

Nice to "meet" you all, and feel free to ask me here or on FB if I can help you with anything! :)

Tuuli Salmi
Nice to meet you, do you race sled dogs? I like your profile picture :D

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:02 am

Rahne wrote:
Blustag wrote:Would people please think carefully before assuming that their dog has wolf behaviour. A lot of dogs in fact most dogs exhibit wolf behaviour of some description daily. The fact that 'some' people think that there is wolf in their dogs makes
for paranoia and little things that their dogs do automatically to them make them think that it is the 'wolf' coming through. High percentage wolfdogs can act like normal dogs whilst others from perhaps the same litter can act like the wolf. Please keep this all in perspective. Whilst some of the tests being done by the USA company are showing wolf content we do not and will not ever know just how far back this so called 'wolf' is. It could be years back. I will be sending in my samples next week for testing and will announce the results as and when I get them. I am just curious as to what they will find in CED, Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky and some of my Tamaskan from different bloodlines.
This is true. BUT on the other hand fully assuming your dog is just a dog while it might be showing wolfdog behaviour could also lead to problems so I don't think it will hurt for people to talk to someone who has experience with wolfdog behaviour when their Tamaskan has 'issues' which could be due to wolf content.

It's nice to hear you will be testing some of your dogs! :)
Oh phew, no offence and sorry for butting in and for this late response but I just want to say that I'm kind of glad to see that the heated aura I've been sensing between the two of you is finally lowering a little bit. For a whole week I worried that the Yinyáng energy would never balance here. ;)

And yes I do partially agree with Lynn's opinion that just because a dog can exhibit wolf-like behaviour does not mean that it's definitely a carrier of recent wolf ancestry. I won't rule out that SOME behaviours might be from the wolfdog genes and that certain show of shyness can also be based on unknown wolfdogs (I'm not talking about the Saarloos and Czech btw) from far back but I believe that it's also important to remember that there are many breeds, and not just those of the northern breeds, that can display some forms of what many would assume to be wolf behaviours such as "hitting" (open-mouth smack at the wrist but without biting). I've been hit by a pure dog before. In the end, perhaps some of the behaviour issues may OR may not be from the wolfdog from far back and often an owner's paranoia from their wolfdog as Lynn mention is usually what causes many people to assume "that's a wolf trait!" which would only put the animal in danger even more. But I also agree with Rahne that it's also wrong to just assume that the dog is a dog IF the owner didn't know what's in the dog's ancestry and that there MIGHT be wolf in their dog's genepool going back. This can also occur with mutts with a bulldog's face (keep in mind this is just an example) in which maybe SOME unusual wild traits could have been from a wolfdog somewhere in the genepool no matter how dilute it may be. While I personally do not care if any true wolfdogs (once again I don't count Saarloos and Czech as true wolfdogs) exists in the genepool of the Tamaskan breed, as long as I'll have a wolf-like companion to marathon with and maybe teach it how to catch fish I have no regrets for choosing the Tamaskan breed. I look forward to hearing about the tests from both of you and wish all the dogs (wolfdog or not) the best.
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