WOLF CONTENT

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:44 pm

Nino wrote:I think it might be a good Idea to ask UC Davis if they are interested in doing on different breeds with known European wolfdog in the background, they might be willing to do this for free..
Good point. It'd be 'supporting scientific research' after all :D
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by pagan » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:58 pm

Why use two dogs doesnt make sense.you can use same dog for multiple matings to same bitch ,but why use two dogs and the sperms lives for more than 48 hrs.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Hawthorne » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:19 pm

[Off topic]
pagan wrote:Why use two dogs doesnt make sense.you can use same dog for multiple matings to same bitch ,but why use two dogs and the sperms lives for more than 48 hrs.
I'm not sure I understand your question. Yes, on an AI you would use one male but the sample has to be large enough (I think it was 400 million sperm for a successful pregnancy) to be effective. If you would split a sample of such size, you'd have two failed AI attempts. I think this was the fear of some folks who were / might be against AI--that the sample sent out would be split to try and inseminate more than one female...and essentially try and get "more bang for your buck." This would be foolish, obviously.

Sperm does not live for 48 hours if you freeze it. Or even if it is chilled. As found in Myra Savant Harris' text (Canine Reproduction and Whelping) the lifespan of sperm is as follows:

Frozen: 1-2 hours after thawing
Chilled with extender: dependable for about 12 hours after rewarming
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by arianwenarie » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:27 pm

@Hawthorne

I think pagan was questioning why two on-site males would be used on the same female. I'm also assuming pagan meant sperm live for 48 hours if it's live cover...? :?

I can only assume breeders would do a double mating using two males on one female if it was the female's last litter and/or they wanted to see what a male would throw with that particular female to help speed up their breeding goals...? If the pairing didn't produce desirable offspring, then the pairing will not be done again - sort of speeding up the process of elimination, I suppose.

Not sure if I made any sense... I was trying to summarize what I had read on the internet years ago about why breeders might use two males on the same female. :oops:

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Mamallamak » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:15 am

I don't have time to get on the site as much as I would like. I decided at lunch today to "catch up".....yea right! Boy am I behind! Ask me how much work I got done this afternoon...sshhhh ;-) I'm still trying to catch up on everything. I think I saw something about a publishing that has a bunch of historical lineage info that I need to find. Can someone tell me where to look? Anyway, I just wanted to put in a little note about Moose since he owns me now.....

As most know, Moose, aka Blustag Wanderer, lives with me now. I did some searching around on the internet before getting Moose since I really didn't know anything about the breed until NC State was looking for a new mascot. I did find documents published that showed his lineage to include wolf content, but wasn't sure whether it was accurate or not since there was so much going around. In the end, it doesn't matter much to me. We love Moose cause he is Moose......if anything though, being a Wolfpack family, my husband loves the idea ;-) But,, I would be more than happy to have him tested if anyone from his lineage would like to know. Since I don't care, I personally don't want to spend the money, but since Moose was one of the first to come to the US I am more than happy to let him be tested and post the results once I verify if I can legally keep him either way. There is no law statewide here, but rather by county. I'm in Johnston County, NC now, but will be moving probably early next year to Craven County due to my husband's business.

As far as his personality goes, while I can see where there may be possible personality traits of being skiddish, pacing, etc, he is the sweetest dog and I have no worries about him harming anyone intentionally. He the dog version of Forest Gump for those who have seen the movie :lol:

PS, how in the world do you post pictures on this site? I can't ever get them to load........ :?:

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AZDehlin » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:27 am

Nice to see you here again, it will probably take you a week or two to catch up... I have a hard time catching up if I am gone for a day or two.

As for the test, I am unsure if the TDR wants more dogs tested at this time, think they want a verification on the tests accuracy before they ask people to spend that kind of money.

As for your pictures they may be too big if they wont load, try down sizing them?

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:20 am

AZDehlin wrote:As for the test, I am unsure if the TDR wants more dogs tested at this time, think they want a verification on the tests accuracy before they ask people to spend that kind of money.
On the contrary, the TDR would like to see more dogs tested, as that is one way to verify the accuracy of the test (and to collect true statistical data) - if only a handful of dogs have been tested, it is not a true or accurate representation of the breed overall. However, the TDR is NOT asking people to "spend that kind of money" - merely, if individuals can spare the cash and want to do the test (and share the results) then it would be welcomed... but there is certainly no pressure since it is such a new test and we still have much to learn about it.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:13 pm

I kindda think this is part of why Jennie was getting defencive to do the test in that topic that's now locked. Not necessarily because of the possible wolf-content but rather the amount of money it would cost. I'm not going to pressure anyone either and probably won't bother doing the test myself when I have my dogs.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Mamallamak » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:13 pm

.....Of the Tamaskans that were DNA sampled, several tested positive for wolf content (the results thus determined that those Tamaskans are 'wolf hybrids') while others tested negative (thus, those Tamaskans are simply regular dogs without any wolf genes). Obviously this only affects particular bloodlines...

.....
- Skye (Whitefang x Paloose) X Nevada (Banjo x Tumanra) = at least one offspring from this combination tested positive as a 'wolf hybrid'
......
Still trying to catch up.......was up REALLY late last night and then been peaking around at work most of the day......ssshhhh ;-)

Well, after looking at the original post from Debbie in this thread and around the internet and finding as much as I could find on Moose's lineage since I do not have his pedigree paperwork (I am getting this information from Juneau's pedigree paperwork found online since Moose is his father), it seems that in his lineage is Paloose, Banjo, and Tumanra (Banjo and Tumanra being his parents, and Paloose being a gr-grandparent). Based on the above statements, I am going to take a wild shot in the dark here and fathom a guess that he will test positive.

I also do not plan on spending my money to test Moose for myself. If someone wants him tested, and I find no legal issues, then they are more than welcome to contribute to his test. I can totally understand if someone else has concerns, and if Moose is in the lineage and I can help without endangering him or my family, I will. Like I said above, I can pretty much guess it'll be positive. How far removed, who knows.....

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Hawthorne » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:23 pm

d93nc9 wrote:Good post! I think the last part is very important, we better be 'safe then sorry'. I will have my doggies tested as soon as I have the money for it and will make sure all the puppy buyers are aware of the results
Are you a breeder? If so, welcome! We're glad to have more Tam owners and breeders here.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by tigerstedt » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:49 am

Nino wrote:it is 150$ I have just done one and handled the paper work today..
Well, thats one down. Got my answere today, and no wolf content in Bow (Dame: Heidi@Blustag, Sire: Jackal@Blustag, same as Sølve). I no longer need my lawyer on speed dial. Phu...
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by TerriHolt » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:32 pm

tigerstedt wrote:
Nino wrote:it is 150$ I have just done one and handled the paper work today..
Well, thats one down. Got my answere today, and no wolf content in Bow (Dame: Heidi@Blustag, Sire: Jackal@Blustag, same as Sølve). I no longer need my lawyer on speed dial. Phu...
Congratulations :mrgreen:
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by claireyclaire » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:55 pm

tigerstedt wrote:
Nino wrote:it is 150$ I have just done one and handled the paper work today..
Well, thats one down. Got my answere today, and no wolf content in Bow (Dame: Heidi@Blustag, Sire: Jackal@Blustag, same as Sølve). I no longer need my lawyer on speed dial. Phu...
That's great news! How old is Bow? I don't know if she is from the same litter as Elska or the latest litter? Can it be assumed if one pup is clear them they all are from the same parentage?
“You can take the dog out of the Wolf Pack, But you can't take the Wolf Pack out of the dog"

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:11 pm

claireyclaire wrote:
tigerstedt wrote:
Nino wrote:it is 150$ I have just done one and handled the paper work today..
Well, thats one down. Got my answere today, and no wolf content in Bow (Dame: Heidi@Blustag, Sire: Jackal@Blustag, same as Sølve). I no longer need my lawyer on speed dial. Phu...
That's great news! How old is Bow? I don't know if she is from the same litter as Elska or the latest litter? Can it be assumed if one pup is clear them they all are from the same parentage?
Bow is from the same litter as Sølve - the latest litter..
Since genes aren't inherited the same in all pups this shouldn't be assumed.

I am awaiting Sølve's result within 6-11 days at the moment
>> Nino <<
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Czertice » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:53 pm

Congratulations!
I don't want to spoil the party, but I'm really curious - doesn't the wolf content testing laboratory state that they test only for markers of american wolves?
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:10 pm

Czertice wrote:Congratulations!
I don't want to spoil the party, but I'm really curious - doesn't the wolf content testing laboratory state that they test only for markers of american wolves?
Yes - and the wolfdog "in question" is born in America.
Unless European and American wolves have the same markers (which is unclear, but they probably don't I'm guessing) this test ought not to react on European wolves and heritage, ex. Saarloos, Czech and other European based wolfdogs.

The thing is with this test that there isn't false positives, only "false negatives" (since it is genes it is only false in the way that they aren't present, but it does not tell us why they aren't present like if the dog isn't related to a wolf or simply did not inherit those genes/markers)

Also I am pretty sure to those of you that was unsure about doing the test, that the result of the test is totally private and that the Lab does not post it anywhere or give the result to anyone else but yourself
>> Nino <<
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:00 pm

That's good to know, thanks for sharing this info! :D
claireyclaire wrote:
tigerstedt wrote:
Nino wrote:it is 150$ I have just done one and handled the paper work today..
Well, thats one down. Got my answere today, and no wolf content in Bow (Dame: Heidi@Blustag, Sire: Jackal@Blustag, same as Sølve). I no longer need my lawyer on speed dial. Phu...
That's great news! How old is Bow? I don't know if she is from the same litter as Elska or the latest litter? Can it be assumed if one pup is clear them they all are from the same parentage?
Bow is from Jackal X Heidi (although, there is a chance that Rann *might* be his sire) - it would be good if Bow could be DNA profiled so that we can conclusively verify parentage.
Elska is from Jackal X Jodie. I would say that there is more likelihood that she would test positive for wolf content. Will you be doing the DNA test, Claire?
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by claireyclaire » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:02 pm

Elska is Heidi x Jackal too! Annette's Annu is out of Jodie x Jackal :D

That is why I wonder if I can assume that Elska would be clear too, although with some of her behaviour I do wonder!
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Czertice » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:04 pm

Nino wrote:
Czertice wrote:Congratulations!
I don't want to spoil the party, but I'm really curious - doesn't the wolf content testing laboratory state that they test only for markers of american wolves?
Yes - and the wolfdog "in question" is born in America.
Unless European and American wolves have the same markers (which is unclear, but they probably don't I'm guessing) this test ought not to react on European wolves and heritage, ex. Saarloos, Czech and other European based wolfdogs.

The thing is with this test that there isn't false positives, only "false negatives" (since it is genes it is only false in the way that they aren't present, but it does not tell us why they aren't present like if the dog isn't related to a wolf or simply did not inherit those genes/markers)

Also I am pretty sure to those of you that was unsure about doing the test, that the result of the test is totally private and that the Lab does not post it anywhere or give the result to anyone else but yourself
It still is better than having nothing in hand.
Also, I think I have heard that in Saarlooses there might have been arctic wolves used at the beginning. Plus there were at least two instances of crossing Vlcaks: with an arcticwolf/GSD cross and with a Saarloos, faking a Vlcak pedigree. But that would have to be a spectacular coincidence, if such Vlcak were to figure in Tamaskan pedigree:D
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Czertice wrote: It still is better than having nothing in hand.
Also, I think I have heard that in Saarlooses there might have been arctic wolves used at the beginning. Plus there were at least two instances of crossing Vlcaks: with an arcticwolf/GSD cross and with a Saarloos, faking a Vlcak pedigree. But that would have to be a spectacular coincidence, if such Vlcak were to figure in Tamaskan pedigree:D
It certainly would be quite the coincidence!
and I agree with you that it is better than having nothing in hand (Which is why I do the test myself)
>> Nino <<
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:08 pm

claireyclaire wrote:Elska is Heidi x Jackal too! Annette's Annu is out of Jodie x Jackal :D

That is why I wonder if I can assume that Elska would be clear too, although with some of her behaviour I do wonder!
Ahhh I thought Annu and Elska were full siblings! :oops:
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by tigerstedt » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:21 pm

Nino wrote:Since genes aren't inherited the same in all pups this shouldn't be assumed.
But less of a chance and it greatly improve ones sleep (and is cheaper than a spa :D ) On the DNA-profiling part: one thing at a time :) But motherhood is likely in the future with a NoWolf-scoored male (if he's handsome, of course. Only the best for my little girl, now bigger than a large GSD, but still puppy in daddys eyes :D )

The result came a bit faster than expected, Nino, so not long to wait now :)
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:39 am

tigerstedt wrote: The result came a bit faster than expected, Nino, so not long to wait now :)
Well I'm excited to hear about it :D
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by weylyn » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:26 am

Also, I think I have heard that in Saarlooses there might have been arctic wolves used at the beginning.
Don't know where you heard this bullshit but it is not true. In the beginning Leendert used 3 female wolves all had the name Fleur. And they where NOT artic. From all the real pure Saarloos aren't many left anymore and because the genepool is to small and other problems etc etc later on( most started in the 80/90 years) other breeders did indeed mixed allot in but not in the beginning when all things where still in the hands of the Fam. Saarloos.....
When Marijke read this i bet her eyes will role :roll:

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Czertice » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:04 pm

weylyn wrote:
Also, I think I have heard that in Saarlooses there might have been arctic wolves used at the beginning.
Don't know where you heard this bullshit but it is not true. In the beginning Leendert used 3 female wolves all had the name Fleur. And they where NOT artic. From all the real pure Saarloos aren't many left anymore and because the genepool is to small and other problems etc etc later on( most started in the 80/90 years) other breeders did indeed mixed allot in but not in the beginning when all things where still in the hands of the Fam. Saarloos.....
When Marijke read this i bet her eyes will role :roll:
I don't know Marijke, but if this person knows more about Saarlooses I'll be happy to hear what s/he has to say about this.
There were several she-wolves used, some say four, some say six, all named Fleur, he did import an Arctic Wolf and did not document the breeding too much. That's probably why I concluded that there might have been Arctic wolf included. I'm sorry for spreading unfounded claims.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Karen » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:22 pm

Marijke is Marijke Saarloos... So yes, she knows the dogs her father gave his name to ;)

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:22 am

Well in an email that was forwarded to me by another user here, Boogie who was a known high-content wolfdog was from the Lockwood Rescue Shelter in California, US. Luckily we have been told that Boogie was not a pure wolf, I just don't know exactly how far back are the wolves in his genepool.
Nice to "meet" you and thank you for your email. Yes, the ones we got
from Wolf Country USA appear to be high content wolfdogs except for
three which did not appear to have any wolf lineage (that we can tell
from the very confusing DNA results). None of them were pure wolves
but there did appear to be four pures whose genetics contributed (at
some point down the line) to the heritage of the 29 animals we got.

I'm sorry I don't know anything about Boogie or his parents.

Hope this helps and good luck!

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Based on what Lorin wrote, I honestly do not know how far away from the pure wolves in his line is Boogie removed but from the photos on facebook he didn't look "pure" wolf to me either so in my opinion (not fact!) he looks like he's at least two generations away from a pure wolf but agains I'm not sure! I THINK that it should be safe to call all of the current Tamaskans with Boogie in their lines "dogs". Looking at photos of Summer (Blustag Little Sunshine) who was sired by Whitefang (a wolfdog from Boogie x Blondy av Vargevass if my memory from the photos in the facebook group is correct), she looks more dog to me than wolf-like and all of the dogs that she gave birth to such as Jaeger are clearly dogs to my eyes. Overall, I personally don't care about the wolf-contents since from where I live any canine over 5 generations removed from the pure wolf is legally considered a domestic dog :)

I personally lean against calling the breed a wolfdog (partly for the sake of those dogs living in places where wolfdogs are banned) other than acknowledging the wolfdogs used in the past. Of course, this is all just my personal opinion
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:02 am

Tiantai wrote:Well in an email that was forwarded to me by another user here, Boogie who was a known high-content wolfdog was from the Lockwood Rescue Shelter in California, US.
Boogie is of Wolf Country USA (Alaska) bloodlines.
He was exported from Texas to Finland. He was NEVER in California.
Tiantai wrote:I THINK that it should be safe to call all of the current Tamaskans with Boogie in their lines "dogs". Looking at photos of Summer (Blustag Little Sunshine) who was sired by Whitefang (a wolfdog from Boogie x Blondy av Vargevass if my memory from the photos in the facebook group is correct), she looks more dog to me than wolf-like and all of the dogs that she gave birth to such as Jaeger are clearly dogs to my eyes.
Lucas, it doesn't matter what YOU think or how these dogs look to YOU... the DNA test CONFIRMED that offspring of Summer x Bobbi ARE "wolf hybrids" according to the UC Davis lab.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:10 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
Tiantai wrote:Well in an email that was forwarded to me by another user here, Boogie who was a known high-content wolfdog was from the Lockwood Rescue Shelter in California, US.
Boogie is of Wolf Country USA (Alaska) bloodlines.
He was exported from Texas to Finland. He was NEVER in California.
Tiantai wrote:I THINK that it should be safe to call all of the current Tamaskans with Boogie in their lines "dogs". Looking at photos of Summer (Blustag Little Sunshine) who was sired by Whitefang (a wolfdog from Boogie x Blondy av Vargevass if my memory from the photos in the facebook group is correct), she looks more dog to me than wolf-like and all of the dogs that she gave birth to such as Jaeger are clearly dogs to my eyes.
Lucas, it doesn't matter what YOU think or how these dogs look to YOU... the DNA test CONFIRMED that offspring of Summer x Bobbi ARE "wolf hybrids" according to the UC Davis lab.
I thought the test only confirmed there was wolf content in the DNA and not the generation the DNA came from, or did I miss some revelation?

Just because UC Davis lab has found markers does not mean they are not dogs. Boogie is in Aydens bloodline and even if Boogie was a pure wolf, Ayden would still be a "Dog". I recieved the following from DEFRA:-
"With regard to the definition change from wolf-dog to plain old dog, I am afraid I cannot provide an answer because I don’t know it! This is presumably a scientific, legal or Kennel Club question….although presumably there are people out there calling their animals wolf-dogs when they only have 1% wolf in them. For our purposes the important word is “hybrid” and the fact that mammal hybrids (with the exception of cat hybrids when its F2 and beyond) that are F3 and beyond do not require a licence, whether you call them wolf-dogs or just dogs…"
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:42 pm

nivenj wrote:I thought the test only confirmed there was wolf content in the DNA and not the generation the DNA came from, or did I miss some revelation?
Correct. :)
Thus, if a dog tests positive for wolf gene markers, it implies that the wolf content exists within a couple of generations (and that individual dog is listed as a "wolf hybrid"). If a dog of the same bloodline, further generations removed, tests negative then it means that the wolf genes have been 'bred out' over subsequent generations (even though we can see the same wolfdogs further back in the pedigree).
nivenj wrote:Just because UC Davis lab has found markers does not mean they are not dogs.
According to UC Davis, if a dog tests positive for wolf content, that's exactly what (they say) it means: that the 'animal' is a "wolf hybrid" (not a dog). In this case, the dogs that Lucas mentioned DID test positive for wolf content; despite their appearance, the wolf content exists within several generations.
nivenj wrote:Boogie is in Aydens bloodline and even if Boogie was a pure wolf, Ayden would still be a "Dog".
If Ayden were Boogie's son (direct descendant) it is likely that Ayden would test positive for wolf gene markers, and thus be listed as a 'wolf hybrid' - however, as Ayden is several generations removed, the probability of testing positive for wolf content decreases with each subsequent generation, which means (as you say) that Ayden is just a 'dog' (he is far enough removed from the 'source'). Considering that a Jackal X Heidi offspring (Ayden's aunt from his maternal line) just tested NEGATIVE for wolf content, it is safe to say that Ayden would probably test clear too.

What makes ME curious (on a personal level) is that I plan to breed Zora with Akim. Considering the new info about Zora's aunt testing negative for wolf content, this implies that Zora is also likely to be negative for wolf content (though I will have her tested to confirm it). Akim, however, is likely to test positive for wolf content as his brother (full sibling from the same litter) tested positive... so that makes me wonder: will SOME of their pups test positive and others negative (depending on gene inheritance) OR will they all be negative OR will they all be positive? Obviously the only way to find out for certain would be to test all of the puppies... but if she has 10 puppies it will cost $1500! (on top of the price of testing each puppy for DM, I think it would be prohibitively expensive).
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Karen » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:29 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
What makes ME curious (on a personal level) is that I plan to breed Zora with Akim. Considering the new info about Zora's aunt testing negative for wolf content, this implies that Zora is also likely to be negative for wolf content (though I will have her tested to confirm it). Akim, however, is likely to test positive for wolf content as his brother (full sibling from the same litter) tested positive... so that makes me wonder: will SOME of their pups test positive and others negative (depending on gene inheritance) OR will they all be negative OR will they all be positive? Obviously the only way to find out for certain would be to test all of the puppies... but if she has 10 puppies it will cost $1500! (on top of the price of testing each puppy for DM, I think it would be prohibitively expensive).
What wonder me more: Why would you want to test the pups?
You know what and who the parents are. You can inform the future owners correctly and so the owners have to choice to take a pup and do the testing if they want to.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:17 pm

Karen wrote:What wonder me more: Why would you want to test the pups?
You know what and who the parents are. You can inform the future owners correctly and so the owners have to choice to take a pup and do the testing if they want to.
Well, we will keep a male for future breeding so it would be good to know. :)

However, the main reason is that people on the waiting list could make an informed decision about whether or not their particular pup would test positive (or not) - which could be an important factor if they live in an area where wolfdogs are illegal. If I didn't test the pups individually it would make sense to err on the side of caution, and not allow ANY of those pups to go to homes where wolfdogs are illegal. However, it would also be a bit silly for me to preemptively dismiss people (based on their location) IF, in fact, all the pups would test negative (and are far enough generations removed from actual wolf content) so that there was no danger. The only way to find out for certain is to have all of the puppies tested.

Either way (if the puppies were tested or not) I would still make sure that the new owners were aware of all the 'risks' and the potential for wolf content, even if it doesn't show up on the DNA test. Maybe the UC Davis test is something that I could include as an optional 'extra' so that the new owners could make up their own minds about whether I should have their pup tested or not.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:35 pm

The easiest would of course always be to test parents of certain litters - ex. I would really like to see Summer tested, I would also like to see Frigga tested, especially to see if it is even necessary to test her offspring - as she has now already have 2 full sisters (different litter) tested negative for wolf markers the chance of her being negative is getting even higher.
I would have loved to have Heidi tested too, if she tested negative for wolf markers it would have saved all of us that has offspring of hers from wasting money on unnecessary tests, I am sure that all the owners of the pups of hers would gladly have thrown in 5-10 dollars each to save the 150 dollars themselves in the other end..
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:54 pm

I know that multiple people have already told me that Jaeger had tested positive for wolfcontent but since I do plan to get a pup from his line I think I'll still want to get my further future pups (not my dog but rather the pups from my dog assuming IF I am going to breed). That way, we can then know for sure how diluted the wolf-content has become from that line should any of the pups still test positive or some negative for wolf-content. But that's going to be a very long time from now, I'm just planning it ahead of time. Hopefully by then the wolf content will have been bred out of most of the dogs so that there is little risk of sending them to places where wolfdogs are forbidden.

Of course, I STILL recommend not sending dogs of known wolf-contents to States where many wolves are still being persecuted as a result of those State's ill-handling of the (in my opinion, over-exaggerated) wolf problems like Wyoming and Montana. Not to get off-topic but there has already been cases of domestic northern spitz in these places getting shot as a result of being "mistaken for wolves" and a case of few camper's agouti-coloured huskies have been mistakenly trapped by hunters. I'll post the video in another thread. And even if the dog is negative, anyone owning them in these States should still be careful when on the hike or campsites.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:44 pm

Tiantai wrote:Of course, I STILL recommend not sending dogs of known wolf-contents to States where many wolves are still being persecuted as a result of those State's ill-handling of the (in my opinion, over-exaggerated) wolf problems like Wyoming and Montana. Not to get off-topic but there has already been cases of domestic northern spitz in these places getting shot as a result of being "mistaken for wolves" and a case of few camper's agouti-coloured huskies have been mistakenly trapped by hunters. I'll post the video in another thread. And even if the dog is negative, anyone owning them in these States should still be careful when on the hike or campsites.
This is something that ALL Tamaskan owners everywhere have to keep in mind, and it is something that I'm sure every owner DOES keep in mind. The 'legality' issue doesn't really matter when a Tamaskan could be harmed by any idiot who mistakes it for a wolf, regardless of location (the same goes for huskies etc). You could be in the most 'wolf friendly' place but if one mean-spirited person wants to do harm then it doesn't make much difference - heck, some people shoot and poison 'regular' dogs here in Croatia. People all over the world hurt dogs, and dogs that look like wolves make a good target. However, wolves are a protected species here in Croatia so Tamaskans might be MORE safe here than regular dogs, or people might be encouraged to 'defend' themselves if they see a 'wolf' coming toward them... it all depends on circumstance. Nonetheless, this topic derailment doesn't really have anything to do with the subject at hand (documented wolf content within the Tamaskan breed).
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:27 pm

Sylvaen wrote: What makes ME curious (on a personal level) is that I plan to breed Zora with Akim. Considering the new info about Zora's aunt testing negative for wolf content, this implies that Zora is also likely to be negative for wolf content (though I will have her tested to confirm it). Akim, however, is likely to test positive for wolf content as his brother (full sibling from the same litter) tested positive... so that makes me wonder: will SOME of their pups test positive and others negative (depending on gene inheritance) OR will they all be negative OR will they all be positive? Obviously the only way to find out for certain would be to test all of the puppies... but if she has 10 puppies it will cost $1500! (on top of the price of testing each puppy for DM, I think it would be prohibitively expensive).
Is there any way to test Akim prior to going to the great lengths to testing all of the puppies? I don't think that just because his sib tested positive that he would, too. Certainly a higher possibility, but not 100%. If Akim came back negative--you could save yourself a lot of trouble, money and worrying!

This was one of my major questions for the UC Davis lab: what is the chance of all siblings testing positive if one tests positive? Will all sibs test positive (I doubt!)? I just think that jumping in and using this test to reassure potential future owners is stretching the credibility of this test. Don't get me wrong, I believe genetics--but this test is still in development.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Rahne » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:06 pm

I thought I should share this info here as I feel it's important, but I won't mention the individual dogs names as the owners requested this info to be kept confidential.

One dog from the 'Golden' litter (Heidi x Bodie), bred by Blustag, has tested negative for wolf content.
One dog from the 'Golden' litter (Heidi x Bodie), bred by Blustag, has tested positive for wolf content.

So this 'proves' that litter siblings can have different results, it just depends on what genes they inherited from their parents.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tatzel » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:12 pm

Rahne wrote:I thought I should share this info here as I feel it's important, but I won't mention the individual dogs names as the owners requested this info to be kept confidential.

One dog from the 'Golden' litter (Heidi x Bodie), bred by Blustag, has tested negative for wolf content.
One dog from the 'Golden' litter (Heidi x Bodie), bred by Blustag, has tested positive for wolf content.

So this 'proves' that litter siblings can have different results, it just depends on what genes they inherited from their parents.
That's quite interessting and I didn't think it was possible, thanks for sharing!
So basically even if the parents are tested positive for wolf content, the pups could turn out not being wolfdog.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AngieH » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:27 pm

Tatzel wrote:
Rahne wrote:I thought I should share this info here as I feel it's important, but I won't mention the individual dogs names as the owners requested this info to be kept confidential.

One dog from the 'Golden' litter (Heidi x Bodie), bred by Blustag, has tested negative for wolf content.
One dog from the 'Golden' litter (Heidi x Bodie), bred by Blustag, has tested positive for wolf content.

So this 'proves' that litter siblings can have different results, it just depends on what genes they inherited from their parents.
That's quite interessting and I didn't think it was possible, thanks for sharing!
So basically even if the parents are tested positive for wolf content, the pups could turn out not being wolfdog.
Remind me if I'm off base, but isn't there an array of markers they test for and one set is only traceable through the male side while the other is traceable both male and female? Not sure if it applies but if the dogs testing positive were male and the dogs testing negative were female, that might be the reason why.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Rahne » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:02 pm

These pups are from the same gender.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:19 pm

Rahne wrote:I thought I should share this info here as I feel it's important, but I won't mention the individual dogs names as the owners requested this info to be kept confidential.

One dog from the 'Golden' litter (Heidi x Bodie), bred by Blustag, has tested negative for wolf content.
One dog from the 'Golden' litter (Heidi x Bodie), bred by Blustag, has tested positive for wolf content.

So this 'proves' that litter siblings can have different results, it just depends on what genes they inherited from their parents.
Ah ha! My suspicions were correct. Thank you 10 years of higher education. LOL
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by arianwenarie » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:45 pm

Hawthorne wrote:
Rahne wrote:I thought I should share this info here as I feel it's important, but I won't mention the individual dogs names as the owners requested this info to be kept confidential.

One dog from the 'Golden' litter (Heidi x Bodie), bred by Blustag, has tested negative for wolf content.
One dog from the 'Golden' litter (Heidi x Bodie), bred by Blustag, has tested positive for wolf content.

So this 'proves' that litter siblings can have different results, it just depends on what genes they inherited from their parents.
Ah ha! My suspicions were correct. Thank you 10 years of higher education. LOL
LOL. I was wondering if there's a possibility of a false negative...? I think I saw it mentioned before, but wasn't sure if that'd be possible for a test like this... :?

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:50 pm

Yes, false negatives are possible. But false positives are not.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by arianwenarie » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:04 pm

Hawthorne wrote:Yes, false negatives are possible. But false positives are not.
So it couould also be a possibility of the dogs that came back negative to have tested false negative? :shock:

I'm seriously not trying to open a can of worms, but that could be worrying. D:

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by gbarlow » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:21 pm

arianwenarie wrote:
Hawthorne wrote:Yes, false negatives are possible. But false positives are not.
So it couould also be a possibility of the dogs that came back negative to have tested false negative? :shock:

I'm seriously not trying to open a can of worms, but that could be worrying. D:
Directly from UC Davis Labs :-
* Because of their close genetic relationship, dogs and wolves share some alleles in the markers used for this test. Although our test is powerful to detect hybridization, absence of wolf-specific alleles is not a guarantee that there is no wolf ancestry.
not sure if thats whats meant by false negative?

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by martinbernstein » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:49 pm

Forgive me if this post is redundant, I haven't read every post on this thread.

I've seen a lot of talk about the UC Davis tests, and it seems that a lot of people are assuming that these tests alone will establish whether or not a Tam has wolf content.

But is it not the case that these tests only test for North American wolf markers? And is it not the case that many Tamaskan lines descend from Czech Wolfdog (Vlcak) and Saarloos crosses, both from Lynn's Finnish 'racing huskies' and 'Apache Horse,' which would then contain European Carpathian Wolf? And is it not feasible that there will one day be a test for European wolf markers?

My point is, are people considering the possibility that all Tams may one day be proven to be of wolf descent?

I pose these questions merely to point out that there may be little use for the UC Davis tests in establishing wolf content because even if a test comes back negative on any given Tam, that doesn't mean there is no wolf content.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:24 am

martinbernstein wrote:Forgive me if this post is redundant, I haven't read every post on this thread.

I've seen a lot of talk about the UC Davis tests, and it seems that a lot of people are assuming that these tests alone will establish whether or not a Tam has wolf content.

But is it not the case that these tests only test for North American wolf markers? And is it not the case that many Tamaskan lines descend from Czech Wolfdog (Vlcak) and Saarloos crosses, both from Lynn's Finnish 'racing huskies' and 'Apache Horse,' which would then contain European Carpathian Wolf? And is it not feasible that there will one day be a test for European wolf markers?

My point is, are people considering the possibility that all Tams may one day be proven to be of wolf descent?

I pose these questions merely to point out that there may be little use for the UC Davis tests in establishing wolf content because even if a test comes back negative on any given Tam, that doesn't mean there is no wolf content.
You're correct, and that's why the UC Davis is used, because the wolves that we're trying to detect in some lines are American grey wolves and that means that the European wolves from the Czech Vlcak would not count. However, I and probably some other members did post here saying that the Saarloos and Czech shouldn't really count since those dogs, although European wolves were used in their foundation lines, are many generations removed from the true wolves and have been considered domestic dogs long before the Tamaskan came into existence. I'm not saying that the European wolf would never be detected in them, yes if there is a test for those Carpathian subspecies in the future and I believe there will be that you mentioned then they probably would show up as positive. But at the moment, Czech Vlcaks, who do exist in some Tamaskans, do live in some states where true wolfdogs are banned and as long as they're considered domestic dogs without American wolf mixed in them, I don't think the Tamaskans with Saarloos and Czech heritage should be too much of a problem as long as it is not one of those with the true American wolfdogs mixed in the line. As long as no one spreads rumour about "recent" European wolves being added into the breed, that's where I would worry. But I do mostly agree with your point, Martin.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by martinbernstein » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:28 am

Right. But unfortunately in some countries, such as my own native Norway, any dog that contains a drop of wolf, with the odd exception of the Saarloos breed, is illegal.

So if someone in Norway or a country with similar laws gets a Tam, they'd better be prepared to face a legal battle should a test for either American wolf or other subspecies be demanded by the authorities.

I've come to terms with the fact that I can never travel with Froya to Norway. Which sucks because she'd frikkin' love it there.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:46 am

I had some discussion about your Frøya a month ago here while you were absent expressing my concern. I do feel bad for you after all this came to light but I am glad you have caught it all ahead of time.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by martinbernstein » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:19 am

Like I said. I knew what I was getting before I got her.

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