WOLF CONTENT

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:11 am

BinBin wrote: I have a feeling that with these new revelations you will also have a new TDR to support you and your dogs.
I don't really know what you mean exactly by a "new TDR" but thanks anyways and oddly enough I noticed you've waited for a very long time to finally post here for the very first time as well. Gotta say that's pretty sneaky, to be honest. No offence!
Image

User avatar
BinBin
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:35 am
Location: Keuruu, Finland

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by BinBin » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:14 am

AZDehlin wrote:
BinBin wrote: Nice to "meet" you all, and feel free to ask me here or on FB if I can help you with anything! :)

Tuuli Salmi
Nice to meet you, do you race sled dogs? I like your profile picture :D
We (my husband and I) own 8 siberians, and our main leader just had our first litter with three puppies. :) So now we have 11 siberians, as all are going to stay home. We have for a few seasons now mainly mushed for recreation and to exercise the dogs but I'm hoping to enter more trials and races next season (I'm not competitive at all but I would like to do it to test my dogs and see who's got and who doesnt). The light coloured female on wheel is by the way a Polar Speed breeding. ;)
fangjingtuanlucas wrote:
BinBin wrote: I have a feeling that with these new revelations you will also have a new TDR to support you and your dogs.
I don't really know what you mean exactly by a "new TDR" but thanks anyways and oddly enough I noticed you've waited for a very long time to finally post here for the very first time as well. Gotta say that's pretty sneaky, to be honest. No offence!
Haha, none taken! :lol: I tried posting here when we got the paternity test analysis back but my messages were deleted asap. So I have just lurked... I'm hoping I'm more welcome now. :) If not, please do tell. I wont get offended, I only wanted to welcome you to see what we have online.

With new TDR I ment this more open and transparent attitude and perhaps - like some of you have already mentioned - a third party pedigree system with a database accessible to everyone. I.e. no mysterious booklets that cost owners and are not open to all, and no secrets and no monopoly.

[edited to ad a reply to Lucas]
Image

User avatar
Ciaobella
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:51 am
Location: South Carolina, USA

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Ciaobella » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:30 am

Tuuli, firstly welcome & thank you for offering your help! That is very kind of you & very needed at this time as you can see :)
Can I ask which paternity analysis you are referring too. If you'd rather not answer I understand I'm just being nosy :)

And as for being welcomed, I'm hoping that you are more welcomed as well. Debby/Sylvaen has made it a point to ask the moderators to refrain from deleting post as these are all open discussions so I'm sure you are free to speak now :)
Katurah

User avatar
BinBin
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:35 am
Location: Keuruu, Finland

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by BinBin » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:13 am

Ciaobella wrote:Tuuli, firstly welcome & thank you for offering your help! That is very kind of you & very needed at this time as you can see :)
Can I ask which paternity analysis you are referring too. If you'd rather not answer I understand I'm just being nosy :)
Thanks! :)

Debbie already pointed to this paternity test. Blustag Little Moon ("Nuuk") ("Whitefang" x Paloose at Blustag) lives in Finland and his owners had had problems with his behaviour. He has bitten several people and acts "snappy" towards children. Nuuk's owner Anni had asked Lynn about his behaviour and received no help. She also asked about Nuuk's father, if she could get pictures. One was sent of a pure white male that looks like Valko the white wolfdog male (Boogie/Ivan x Blondy av Vargevass/Dixy) Lynn previously owned (with his sister Henki/Jodie) while she lived in Finland and later sold to a wolfdog breeder here. As Valko was alive at that time, we asked his owner to take a sample and send it to Finnzymes laboratory here in Finland. Anni took a sample from Nuuk and sent that sample to Finnzymes as well. This test was positive (I.e. "Valko may be the father of Nuuk"), although one must remember it is not 100% certain without the sample from the mother. When asked the lab told Anni that this basically means there is less than 1% chance that Nuuk's father is someone else.

When this analysis was presented here and several other places as well, it was not believed as Lynn claimed it had been forged. Nuuk has a microchip, Valko does not, so she said we had sampled some other dogs. However she forgot that the person who paid for the analysis was Anni, and all she wanted was proof of the real father of her dog. I.e. she had no motive for forge anything. THe file is on the FB group files. I tried to upload it along with this message but pdf is not allowed. Let me know if you want a copy, I can email it as well.

[edit, cant write]
Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:29 am

hi tuuli :D

yes, thanks fir the help and info you are able to provide...
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
muensterland
Tamabulous (Promoter)
Tamabulous (Promoter)
Posts: 674
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 8:57 pm
Location: Germany-Gescher
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by muensterland » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:44 am

Hi together

In this post people asked for the reason the Germans seperated themselves from the TDR.
Before I describe the reason, I would like to say thank you to the TDR Comitee, in the name of the Tamaskan Germany Club, for the publication of these topics. Fiona, John and Debbie do a great job and they are certainly not the reason why we broke up.
The Tamaskan is a fantastic breed and we want to continue building up this breed and support the Tamaskan. Whether the Tamaskan has wolf content or not does not change anything at our dogs and their character.
Everyone who knows Tamaskans, knows why we love them. What ever happens in the future....the Love to the breed won't change!!!

There were told many lies in the past and people have been cheated. Many questions haven't been answered and help hasn't been given. Everybody who asked for answers has been poorly publicized. We tried to find out the truth and were insulted. A collaboration on this basis was not possible for us. This resulted in a separation and we build up our own association. We have debated long and hard about it before we decided to make this step.
Cooperation with the TDR in the future is not excluded, but first there must be some fundamental changes. Traceability, honesty and openness must be the principle for the new TDR. The first step is made ​​with high hopes and we are pursuing the further development.
The Tamaskan Germany club wishes everybody luck and a stress free future.

best wishes the Tamaskan Club Germany
best wishes from Kirsten and Karsten
http://www.tamaskan-vom-muensterland.de
Image

User avatar
Dallas
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 10:19 pm
Location: Austria

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Dallas » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:46 am

great to see you here again :)
Men who consistently leave the toilet seat up secretly want women to get up to go the bathroom in the middle of the night and fall in

User avatar
Vroni
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:26 pm
Location: Germany / Belgium
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Vroni » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:59 am

I only want to say that I am also a proud member of the Tamaskan Germany Club and I wish that the TDR and we are able to work together. But like Kirsten said there are many changes needed and I hope our wishes become true.
My Tamaskan Jack
ImageImage

My Shiba Inu Jim
ImageImage

Akim
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:16 pm

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Akim » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:01 am

]Hello from Germany

Yes, we went about all the lies! Lynn do not want health of our dogs and puppies but will have enough puppies - so to have enough money! I was clear as she tried to mate Tumanra with Akim. Akim was tested DM and he is a carrier. She said everything is ok with Tumanra - weeks later she says that even Tumanra is DM carrier. That would be the next accident matting!!!!

I'm glad that everything has not worked that time! I trust Lynn for nothing - and certainly not her papers that she offers with her puppys!! Trust in such a breeder! HA Ha Ha

Greetings from Akim

User avatar
Sylvaen
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 5202
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:30 am

Thank you all for your input. At the same time, I don't want to see these comments dissolve into nastiness and a hate campaign / witch hunt aimed at any one particular individual - this is not the time or the place, but I will address it (and the solutions) in my upcoming list of proposals. We need to stay constructive and positive, to make the most out of this situation, not to be consumed by negativity and resentment, which is only doing more damage in the long term. We need to think about rebuilding and moving forward all together, not singling people out, forming ally groups, splitting off, etc... we are already too fragmented with too little cooperation. Above all, it is a time for change... positive changes in the right direction for the sake of the breed as a whole.
Image
The future lies before you, like a path of pure white snow...
Be careful how you tread it, for every step will show.

User avatar
Gabriele58
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:31 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Gabriele58 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:37 am

Welcome, Tuuli, and welcome back to the German group. It really would be wonderful if all issues can be addressed to everyone's satisfaction and we could have a united Tamaskan family.
~Gabriele~

Image

User avatar
Gabriele58
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:31 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Gabriele58 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:41 am

fangjingtuanlucas wrote:
BinBin wrote: I have a feeling that with these new revelations you will also have a new TDR to support you and your dogs.
I don't really know what you mean exactly by a "new TDR" but thanks anyways and oddly enough I noticed you've waited for a very long time to finally post here for the very first time as well. Gotta say that's pretty sneaky, to be honest. No offence!
Lucas, I know for a fact that Tuuli HAS attempted to post here prior to this and did have her post deleted. I think the work she has done is admirable and I now have a picture pedigree of my dog, thanks to the FB page Tuuli mentioned. :D
~Gabriele~

Image

User avatar
claireyclaire
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 3:59 pm
Location: Wiltshire, UK

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by claireyclaire » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:42 am

Sylvaen wrote:Thank you all for your input. At the same time, I don't want to see these comments dissolve into nastiness and a hate campaign / witch hunt aimed at any one particular individual - this is not the time or the place, but I will address it (and the solutions) in my upcoming list of proposals. We need to stay constructive and positive, to make the most out of this situation, not to be consumed by negativity and resentment, which is only doing more damage in the long term. We need to think about rebuilding and moving forward all together, not singling people out, forming ally groups, splitting off, etc... we are already too fragmented with too little cooperation. Above all, it is a time for change... positive changes in the right direction for the sake of the breed as a whole.
Very well said Debby
“You can take the dog out of the Wolf Pack, But you can't take the Wolf Pack out of the dog"

Akim
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:16 pm

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Akim » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:04 am

Hello again
I agree with you all! But there are not many opportunities as it could go positive. If I had not Tamaskan I would not buy into this situation- no! It is a wonderful breed - we can not change the past but we can not continue! I'm happy with Akim! If it is not cracked down harder on breeders I do not see any improvement. Transparency alone is not everything! The origin of Tamaskan is a lie. The breed must be set up almost new! But that's just my opinion

Greetings Akim

romy
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:52 pm
Location: lienden

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by romy » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:19 am

Hi All

in the past I have reacted here.
First I want to say I have respect for Debby, John and Fiona.
And great that Debby gave you all information she knows. I know she place herself with this in a very hard position

I never mentioned it before and sometimes even denied to some that have asked but yes I am Miran aka Weylyn.
I know some still do not want me here and I respect that
I only want to say that I am open for it if you want to have tested Bobbi or what so ever Debby.

so sorry this was my Hi again but also my goodby again.
Wish you all the goods and hope you all make the right changes so the Tamaskan can shine as never before :D

User avatar
nivenj
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:33 pm
Location: UK

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:44 am

Akim wrote:Hello again
I agree with you all! But there are not many opportunities as it could go positive. If I had not Tamaskan I would not buy into this situation- no! It is a wonderful breed - we can not change the past but we can not continue! I'm happy with Akim! If it is not cracked down harder on breeders I do not see any improvement. Transparency alone is not everything! The origin of Tamaskan is a lie. The breed must be set up almost new! But that's just my opinion

Greetings Akim
It is an opinion which I am sure you will not be alone in. It is an incredibly emotive subject. Lets keep in mind here that the Breed has been developed over many many years and some of these revelations have been talked about for nearly as long. The confirmation of these revelations do not change what we have today, nor detract from the many wonderful, intelligent dogs that we have as a result. They do however allow us to re-evalute how the Breed develops from now, and how we can best present the Breed to ensure it grows from strength to strength.

Undoubtedly, part of this evaluation will and must include safeguards and controls to ensure the likelihood of a re-occurence of either of these issues in the future, but that will come in time.

Will the changes being presented to achieve this be perfect? Probably not, and is to be expected, however, as with all change, there should be a process of constant evaluation to see what is working and what is not, and that is why the committee exists. To act in the best interests of the Breed and to be our representatives in these cases and suggest and implement change. I think the problem up until now has been that the wider committee's hands were tied, which thankfully is no longer the case.

Lets not focus on the negatives, and lets focus on the great possibilities that now exist that we are free from the doubt that has been hindering the Breed.

I would like to say one last thing to those that are concerned about the potential wolf content of any particular dog. Perspective is crucial here. Do not look at your dog as a potential wild animal that is going to turn on you when your sleeping in your bed. Your dog, that you know and love, is still the dog you know and love. The information is being presented to allow you to make informed decisions on the course of action that is relevant to your situation and seek assistance with knowledge that will help you.

I'm sure an F1 wolfdog can still be a Joy to own, as long as you know what and how to deal with it :D
Image
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.” --Aristotle *

MelB
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 290
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 11:01 am
Location: Kent, UK

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by MelB » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:50 am

malinois wrote:Hi together

In this post people asked for the reason the Germans seperated themselves from the TDR.
Before I describe the reason, I would like to say thank you to the TDR Comitee, in the name of the Tamaskan Germany Club, for the publication of these topics. Fiona, John and Debbie do a great job and they are certainly not the reason why we broke up.
The Tamaskan is a fantastic breed and we want to continue building up this breed and support the Tamaskan. Whether the Tamaskan has wolf content or not does not change anything at our dogs and their character.
Everyone who knows Tamaskans, knows why we love them. What ever happens in the future....the Love to the breed won't change!!!

There were told many lies in the past and people have been cheated. Many questions haven't been answered and help hasn't been given. Everybody who asked for answers has been poorly publicized. We tried to find out the truth and were insulted. A collaboration on this basis was not possible for us. This resulted in a separation and we build up our own association. We have debated long and hard about it before we decided to make this step.
Cooperation with the TDR in the future is not excluded, but first there must be some fundamental changes. Traceability, honesty and openness must be the principle for the new TDR. The first step is made ​​with high hopes and we are pursuing the further development.
The Tamaskan Germany club wishes everybody luck and a stress free future.

best wishes the Tamaskan Club Germany
I'm really glad to see the German contingent here again. I strongly hope that fundamental changes can be made to allow the breed and community to flourish and become stronger in the the future without breakaway groups.

I also think it is good that "outsiders" with potential information are now being listened to calmly without being screamed down at face value. The offer to carry out more tests is also a positive move, more DNA tests are the way forward.

Vuokko
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:33 pm
Location: Finland

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Vuokko » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:37 am

Hello

Ofcourse I don't want to hurt Tamaskan people and I wish you all the best in the future. Very beautiful dogs you have and I believe, that you love them very much. That's the way it must be. Otherwise there is no reason to own dogs. I own 14 siberians and I race with them. Last winter I had only one race. It was 100km with 6 dogs. Near Easter I spent one week up in hills in Finnis Lapland with own dogteam. Thats's the best :) I also work with my dogs during seasons. I love every dog I own and have owned.

I have shared pics in FB-group Tuuli mentioned. I don't know Tamaskan dog novadays, but I know these Finnish "dogs" where this whole thing started. With this information I can help you.

Vuokko Liimatta
www.lapinvuokonkennel.fi

Akim
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:16 pm

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Akim » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:27 pm

But we all should always remember that we are not talking about a computer game which is not ok. We are talking about dogs and for them the past might be dangerous. if anything would happen with Akim because of his past - then I would go with him and for him to hell! I personally can not understand why there was always talk of trust and friendliness? We have trusts and what we have of this? I want to stay friendly - OK - but it was kind what has been done to us and our dogs? If you lie to the world you must not be surprised if the world is angry! I can not imagine that all my mind like it - but it's my personal opinion!

Greetings from Akim

User avatar
nivenj
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:33 pm
Location: UK

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:50 pm

Understood Akim, and your anger is absolutely expected and warranted. We are all angry of course. No one is asking or expecting people not to be angry, just to bear with those that are facing the challenge ahead. I am sure there will be guidance and advice to help people through their concerns.
Image
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.” --Aristotle *

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:52 pm

Thanks Tuuli,
:lol:
Yes I was worried about the situation as it was heating up for all of last week (and I took no sides of that debate partly because I did not want to make enemies with anyone) and until yesterday but I am glad that with the help of John and Debby things are starting to work out after all the crap that was flying in the air. I was skeptic about the no-wolf content back in 2008 when I first got into the breed but overtime I didn't care anymore if the breed has wolf far back or not as I've met and occasionally hung around with some true wolfdogs and a pack of pure Eastern wolves before and they make the Tamaskan look more puppyish in comparison. I still see the Tamaskan as a domestic dog much like how I see the Czech and Saarloos and I hope that with the transparency that a lot of people have been waiting for, we may finally get back some of the former breeders (not including puppy millers like RPK) who left us and rebuild the already torn apart community and hopefully all this demonizing of certain people like yourself will all be in the past. There are numerous people including some of my cousins in the far east interested in the breed, not for breeding but for companionship and I hope that more people will start to look at the TDR in a more positive light.
Image

User avatar
Hawthorne
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1817
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 11:07 pm
Location: Pennsylvania | USA
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Hawthorne » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:59 pm

WhiteElkStag wrote:
Kylievr wrote:I know the tests aren't 100%, but how accurate are they? It's a lot of money to pay if it was only 50% accurate for example.
That's the problem Kylievr, there doesn't seem to be ANY information out there about the accuracy or veracity of the tests. This test could theoretically come out positive on a 100th generation Pug while testing negative on a F1 wolfdog, it all seems to be based on random genetic drift and there is no published information about which gene they're looking for or any statistical analysis of their results.
I just want to share some additional information with folks that might help a little. I work for my state wildlife agency, and as an agency our law enforcement division does testing on dogs for wolf content because wolf hybrids are illegal here in PA (and I say hybrid as in wolf x dog cross--as opposed to the wolfdog breeds as in Czech and Sarloos). This testing is contracted out to a state university. East Stroudsburg University conducts a similar test to the one at UC Davis that looks for wolf content. I contacted the lab technician myself and asked her questions about the test. I asked if her test would come out positive for the Sarloos or Czech wolfdogs. She didn't know. I asked how many generations it would take if you took an F1 and kept crossing back to dog only, she didn't know. If one pup tests positive in a litter, will they all? I doubt it but she didn't know. If both parents are tested and come back negative, is there any chance that a pup will test positive? This is also an unknown. This is why participating in this test could be important. I mentioned to her that many shelters would love a definitive test for wolf content so that lives could be saved (because here in the US, if it looks like a wolf they cannot adopt out). Her lab is too inundated to take on testing on this scale, and I understand that. It's just her, as a professor, and her graduate students.

My point is that these tests are new and they need more data to give more accurate results. You have to start from somewhere--and we're involved in this testing with UC Davis at the beginning. There may not be reviews of this procedure because they have not published results yet (?). I am excited to see what happens if Sarloos or Czech are tested, or if other wolf subspecies could be added to the database.

I also don't think that the appearance or lack thereof of these markers in Tamaskan should result in people looking to their dogs for poor behavior. Just because those markers are there doesn't mean that you'll have an uncontrollable dog. I am happy that this is public information now, too and so far I am quite pleased that folks are not flying off the deep end in a panic.

And also, I just want to say that here in PA if you have your Tamaskan's dog license then you're safe. It's registered with the Dept. of Agriculture as a DOG. Just a thought but folks in other states might want to research if a license will protect you.
Tracy Graziano
http://www.hawthornetamaskan.com

bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
lick like there's no end to kissing
sleep on a sofa nearby
jump like the sky is the limit
sit by the fire with friends
stay with the ones who love you
run like the road never ends

User avatar
TeresaC
Tamabulous (Promoter)
Tamabulous (Promoter)
Posts: 720
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 4:30 am
Location: WI USA
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by TeresaC » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:36 pm

I also don't think that the appearance or lack thereof of these markers in Tamaskan should result in people looking to their dogs for poor behavior. Just because those markers are there doesn't mean that you'll have an uncontrollable dog. I am happy that this is public information now, too and so far I am quite pleased that folks are not flying off the deep end in a panic.

And also, I just want to say that here in PA if you have your Tamaskan's dog license then you're safe. It's registered with the Dept. of Agriculture as a DOG. Just a thought but folks in other states might want to research if a license will protect you.
Thank you Tracy for this. I also wanted to share I had a long conversation with some of my friends who are behavorists. I discussed in broad terms some of the conversations I have been seeing in various forums, Facebook groups, emails, etc. about behavior in this group.

While temperment is genetic, we can't blame it all on the fact that there may be wolf content in the history of some lines. It also has other genetic factors, envioronmental factors, dietary factors and more.

Lines that show issues with dog-dog issues or lines that would have dog-people issues should be watched closedly. This type of reactivity is often genetic. I am working to get my hands on some of the recent studys. Hopefully in time for the US show. Thought it could make for a good book club :D

However, I was told that they are seeing increased numbers these past years in reactivity in dogs. The question is why. They are stumped. Kind of like why are we seeing so much more autism all of a sudden?

I don't these always the best dogs for first time dog owners. When I tell people about how smart Luna is and how she can open closet doors, kitchen cabinets, kitchen drawers, get on top of the refrigerator and open up all the treat dispensers, they think we are nuts for having her. She also has seperation anxiety and a ton of energy. This is probably not a great combo for a first time owner.

So to stop rambling, we know there are some behavior things. Let's not jump to conclusions. The last Reactive Rover class we were in had a lab, a border collie and a poodle. Not exactly breeds known for their dog-dog agression issues.
Teresa Cutler
Moondance Tamaskan, Wisconsin
US Tamaskan Dog Club, Secretary

User avatar
arianwenarie
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 5:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by arianwenarie » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:48 pm

TeresaC wrote:
I also don't think that the appearance or lack thereof of these markers in Tamaskan should result in people looking to their dogs for poor behavior. Just because those markers are there doesn't mean that you'll have an uncontrollable dog. I am happy that this is public information now, too and so far I am quite pleased that folks are not flying off the deep end in a panic.

And also, I just want to say that here in PA if you have your Tamaskan's dog license then you're safe. It's registered with the Dept. of Agriculture as a DOG. Just a thought but folks in other states might want to research if a license will protect you.
Thank you Tracy for this. I also wanted to share I had a long conversation with some of my friends who are behavorists. I discussed in broad terms some of the conversations I have been seeing in various forums, Facebook groups, emails, etc. about behavior in this group.

While temperment is genetic, we can't blame it all on the fact that there may be wolf content in the history of some lines. It also has other genetic factors, envioronmental factors, dietary factors and more.

Lines that show issues with dog-dog issues or lines that would have dog-people issues should be watched closedly. This type of reactivity is often genetic. I am working to get my hands on some of the recent studys. Hopefully in time for the US show. Thought it could make for a good book club :D

However, I was told that they are seeing increased numbers these past years in reactivity in dogs. The question is why. They are stumped. Kind of like why are we seeing so much more autism all of a sudden?

I don't these always the best dogs for first time dog owners. When I tell people about how smart Luna is and how she can open closet doors, kitchen cabinets, kitchen drawers, get on top of the refrigerator and open up all the treat dispensers, they think we are nuts for having her. She also has seperation anxiety and a ton of energy. This is probably not a great combo for a first time owner.

So to stop rambling, we know there are some behavior things. Let's not jump to conclusions. The last Reactive Rover class we were in had a lab, a border collie and a poodle. Not exactly breeds known for their dog-dog agression issues.
I work and intern with a canine behaviorist and the reactive class is quite popular. There's always a multitude of breeds that we see in the class. Yes, even a chihuahua and a pomeranian. We've even had a maltese! I must say that, imo, it's not so much the breed (never), but moreso the dog's drives (influenced by environmental and sometimes, genetic factors). The owner's energy also plays a role and would be classified as an environmental factor.

I tell you with confidence that my lab girl, Abby, is a nervous nelly when she's around me and has separation anxiety (from me only). When I am taken out of the equation, she's the perfect calm, confident and stable dog with my roommate (a dog trainer) and with my boss. Reason behind this is because, sub-consciously, I fear the unknown and that translates to nervousness (unstable in my dog's eyes).

We've had a GSD/CSV mix attend a class with us and he guarded the owner and has a human bite history. We've also had what we believe to be a mid-content (F1 or 2) wolfdog that took classes with us - I don't remember if the outcome was positive or not, but I do remember the dog constantly fighting the owner for control.

In my boss's research on dog aggression and a public survey, she did not find strong evidence that breed had something to do with displays and/or acts of aggression.

User avatar
Hawthorne
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1817
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 11:07 pm
Location: Pennsylvania | USA
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:22 pm

And I think we can all admit, on some level, that when you're out there walking your new Tamaskan pup--the new love of your life--and a stray dog with no owner in site comes running around the corner and isn't looking too friendly...well, let's say I struggle to hold it together. None of us want bad things to happen to our babies. And I think it's one of the most difficult things to get over (running into strays). But these events have lasting impacts on our dogs. Having been attacked several times, I know that Freyja thinks it's her "job" to protect the others. She goes to class next...Obedience level 2--or maybe a remedial class :D
Tracy Graziano
http://www.hawthornetamaskan.com

bark as if no one can hear you
catch the ball on the fly
lick like there's no end to kissing
sleep on a sofa nearby
jump like the sky is the limit
sit by the fire with friends
stay with the ones who love you
run like the road never ends

User avatar
arianwenarie
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 5:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by arianwenarie » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:31 pm

Hawthorne wrote:And I think we can all admit, on some level, that when you're out there walking your new Tamaskan pup--the new love of your life--and a stray dog with no owner in site comes running around the corner and isn't looking too friendly...well, let's say I struggle to hold it together. None of us want bad things to happen to our babies. And I think it's one of the most difficult things to get over (running into strays). But these events have lasting impacts on our dogs. Having been attacked several times, I know that Freyja thinks it's her "job" to protect the others. She goes to class next...Obedience level 2--or maybe a remedial class :D
Yup, I hear that every day from many dog owners. Stray/loose dogs is an issue no matter what city we live in. I believe I sent you an email a while back about this, Tracy, and what you could do. lol.

Since I've moved out of my sister's house, I have come across a few loose dogs in my neighborhood. I panic at first, but due to my training, everything just kicks into gear... almost like reflex. :?

User avatar
AngieH
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:29 pm
Location: Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AngieH » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:54 pm

nivenj wrote:
Blustag wrote:Would people please think carefully before assuming that their dog has wolf behaviour. A lot of dogs in fact most dogs
exhibit wolf behaviour of some description daily. The fact that 'some' people think that there is wolf in their dogs makes
for paranoia and little things that their dogs do automatically to them make them think that it is the 'wolf' coming through.
High percentage wolfdogs can act like normal dogs whilst others from perhaps the same litter can act like the wolf.
Please keep this all in perspective. Whilst some of the tests being done by the USA company are showing wolf content
we do not and will not ever know just how far back this so called 'wolf' is. It could be years back. I will be sending in my
samples next week for testing and will announce the results as and when I get them. I am just curious as to what they will
find in CED,Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky and some of my Tamaskan from different bloodlines.
Lynn, might be an idea to get someone independent to do this for you. As someone who is targeted as being behind the secrecy and denials, I am sure there will be many who will question the validity of the results from DNA swabs taken by yourself :|
I am having my girls done with the help of my vet. The vet will scan the chips, take the swabs and receive the results from UC Davis on my behalf keeping the results in my girls' vet record and call me to pick of a copy for my personal records.

Even as a just a private owner, I want *no one* to have even the most remote suspicion about the results.
One's horizon shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.
~Nin

tigerstedt
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:32 am
Location: Norway

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by tigerstedt » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:00 pm

AngieH wrote:I am having my girls done with the help of my vet. The vet will scan the chips, take the swabs and receive the results from UC Davis on my behalf keeping the results in my girls' vet record and call me to pick of a copy for my personal records.

Even as a just a private owner, I want *no one* to have even the most remote suspicion about the results.
Doing the same with my solicitor.
A home without a dog
- is just a house

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:15 pm

tigerstedt wrote:
AngieH wrote:I am having my girls done with the help of my vet. The vet will scan the chips, take the swabs and receive the results from UC Davis on my behalf keeping the results in my girls' vet record and call me to pick of a copy for my personal records.

Even as a just a private owner, I want *no one* to have even the most remote suspicion about the results.
Doing the same with my solicitor.
I will be using my vet too..
>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:16 pm

tigerstedt wrote:
AngieH wrote:I am having my girls done with the help of my vet. The vet will scan the chips, take the swabs and receive the results from UC Davis on my behalf keeping the results in my girls' vet record and call me to pick of a copy for my personal records.

Even as a just a private owner, I want *no one* to have even the most remote suspicion about the results.
Doing the same with my solicitor.

I'm not brave enough :( :oops:
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
Nino
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 am
Location: Aalborg - Denmark

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:19 pm

TerriHolt wrote:
tigerstedt wrote:
AngieH wrote:I am having my girls done with the help of my vet. The vet will scan the chips, take the swabs and receive the results from UC Davis on my behalf keeping the results in my girls' vet record and call me to pick of a copy for my personal records.

Even as a just a private owner, I want *no one* to have even the most remote suspicion about the results.
Doing the same with my solicitor.

I'm not brave enough :( :oops:
Will it be a problem with the government if he checks out with wolf markers?

I don't think it is in UK anymore is it?

if not I will quote Nike "Just Do it" ;)
>> Nino <<
Image

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:32 pm

Nino wrote:
Will it be a problem with the government if he checks out with wolf markers?

I don't think it is in UK anymore is it?

if not I will quote Nike "Just Do it" ;)

I'm not sure, i need to look into it more. I have a trusted vet friend i can talk to... I wouldn't have had any boubts and done it but then i think of Lennox... That has changed the way i look at everything... A tape measure said he measures to be pit 'type' even tho he is lab x american bull x staffie... no pit in the lines at all. So i don't know what will happen if there are markers but i can't prove how far back... I know he is legal and not that close, everyone hear may know he is legal and not that close... but i don't trust (or like) the law or the authorities one little bit. Chances are, nothing will happen but i'm not sure if i wanna risk it until i can be sure.

I wouldn't have to tell anyone the results that come back would i? I mean if i do it for my own piece of mind on the off chance of proving he is all dog (which is what i would expect to happen).
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
AngieH
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:29 pm
Location: Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by AngieH » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:10 pm

TerriHolt wrote:
tigerstedt wrote:
AngieH wrote:I am having my girls done with the help of my vet. The vet will scan the chips, take the swabs and receive the results from UC Davis on my behalf keeping the results in my girls' vet record and call me to pick of a copy for my personal records.

Even as a just a private owner, I want *no one* to have even the most remote suspicion about the results.
Doing the same with my solicitor.

I'm not brave enough :( :oops:
I can't Immagine what you must be going through. :shock:
I do have the luxury of knowing a littermate of Paka and Fable tested 100% dog and have the additional reassurance of not living in a breed restricted state (though my condo community is another story)

Perhaps you could do as above only have the vet call *you* when results arrive and *you* open them. Then, depending on the results, you can ask for them to be attached to Sam's records or taken home with you privately depending on which action would best protect Sam.
One's horizon shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.
~Nin

User avatar
nivenj
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Tamtastic (Apprentice)
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:33 pm
Location: UK

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by nivenj » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:16 pm

TerriHolt wrote:
Nino wrote:
Will it be a problem with the government if he checks out with wolf markers?

I don't think it is in UK anymore is it?

if not I will quote Nike "Just Do it" ;)

I'm not sure, i need to look into it more. I have a trusted vet friend i can talk to... I wouldn't have had any boubts and done it but then i think of Lennox... That has changed the way i look at everything... A tape measure said he measures to be pit 'type' even tho he is lab x american bull x staffie... no pit in the lines at all. So i don't know what will happen if there are markers but i can't prove how far back... I know he is legal and not that close, everyone hear may know he is legal and not that close... but i don't trust (or like) the law or the authorities one little bit. Chances are, nothing will happen but i'm not sure if i wanna risk it until i can be sure.

I wouldn't have to tell anyone the results that come back would i? I mean if i do it for my own piece of mind on the off chance of proving he is all dog (which is what i would expect to happen).
Terri, Just to put your mind at rest. The UK is even more liberal than others. You are allowed to keep an F3 without needing a license. This is directly from the DEFRA website.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Image
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.” --Aristotle *

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:39 pm

Yer, i know i'm probably over reacting :oops: I'd just like to have the proof (always with the proof) i need that he is in the legal status before i do anything (any moron can tell just by looking at him)... Correct, non home made (mine look pretty pathetic :lol: ) papers would be an awesome start (not rushing anyone, just saying :D ). The TDR functioning correctly with the right knowledge of which dog is sire/dam of the correct litters, original kennel names restored etc (i'm a tad behind on how that has progressed :oops: )...
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

tigerstedt
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:32 am
Location: Norway

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by tigerstedt » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:55 pm

I suspect people are working their butt of on the proof side :) (even with me naging several people in the committee to the brink of anger :roll: ) I'm pretty sure we'll have what we need soon enough, although I personally appreciate that they take the time needed. We've apparently had to many quick and dirty short cuts in our (it seems not to transparant) past.

Hang in there, Terri :)
A home without a dog
- is just a house

User avatar
TerriHolt
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 3274
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:56 am
Location: UK, East Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by TerriHolt » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:13 pm

I'm hanging :D I'd rather it go right the 1st time than wrong a few times 1st...

I also appreciate all the hard work everyone is doing to clear the mess left behind... It can't be easy to sort through everything... Gratitude hear :D
Image

There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

User avatar
Tiantai
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2558
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:16 pm
Location: Canada (North York, Ontario)

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:53 am

I thought since the topic is titled wolf-content I would ask, and it's going to be long.

If you breed an upper high content wolfdog who is F3 on one parent (3 generations away from the pure wolf) and the other is a pure wolf (thus making it F1 due to the directly introduced fresh wolf on the other side in this animal) with another F1 of the same status as your first one and then you breed their offsprings with other high F2 wolfdogs with the same contents as your F2 pups (assuming their parents are also an F3 and Pure wolf) and you continue to breed these high-contents with other high contents sharing similar high-content lines down repeating the pattern after 5 generations, would the 6th generations (still high-content as a result of the high-content breeding but without introducing anymore pure wolf genes) now removed from that pure wolf over 5 generations still be considered as wolfdogs?

I thought that they would and should but someone on Cyworld told me that they would not no matter how pure wolfish they may look or behave. I know this is VERY HARD to do as you can hardly find 90% to do this in the first place but hypothetically.
Image

User avatar
BinBin
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:35 am
Location: Keuruu, Finland

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by BinBin » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:59 am

AngieH wrote: I can't Immagine what you must be going through. :shock:
I do have the luxury of knowing a littermate of Paka and Fable tested 100% dog and have the additional reassurance of not living in a breed restricted state (though my condo community is another story)
This is good news, can you tell me Paka's and Fable's parents? I know of a few people who are thinking of testing their Oskari-line dog to see if they show up as wolf blood. It might be a good idea perhaps to collect all the results for the TDR, if not her perhaps Rahne or someone who can relate this info to pedigrees too.

Now, I know the whole wolf blood issue can be frightening. But like someone pointed here already, Boogie is NOT a pure wolf. This much is sure from the facts we have gathered from the Alaskan officials (Wildlife Troopers who confiscated the animals from Wolf COuntry USA) and the rescue center the animals were taken into. The rescue center told me this: "Yes, the ones we got from Wolf Country USA appear to be high content wolfdogs except for three which did not appear to have any wolf lineage (that we can tell from the very confusing DNA results). None of them were pure wolves but there did appear to be four pures whose genetics contributed (at some point down the line) to the heritage of the 29 animals we got." Also, the estimates we have from wolfdog experts are that Boogie is a high content wolfdog, and the wolf/wolves are back several generations. Thus, Boogie's parents and grandparents are also most likely high content wolfdogs, not pure wolves. I.e. Boogie himself is most likely of a filial generation F3 >>. This means Valko and Jodie are NOT F1 wolfdogs, they are most likely F4 onwards, although their "wolf percentage" is near the 50% based on the outlook of the puppies with Blondy and again with puppies with his own daughter, which appear to be very wolfy looking and they behave very wolfy too. The "Little" -litter and Jodie's puppies are thus most likely regarded as F5 or more, their "wolf content" being still near 25%. But again, I'm talking about estimations, I havent contacted Boogie's breeder though as I'm not completely sure his words are to be trusted in this matter. This all also means that no conservation or CITES issues are to be worried, Boogie was bred as a wolfdog. If you want, I can post pictures here of Boogie and the rest of the animals I mentioned.

All this being said, I encourage anyone interested in this to test their dog at UC Davis. They have tested several animals of the SAME wolf blood that Boogie is from, and some Tamaskan have tested positive for wolf blood. It is thus very likely that IF your dog is from a Boogie-line, it will come out as positive. As for the legal bits, if you were sold a dog without wolfblood and this turns out to be a lie, I would assume the owner is not held responsible. And, as has been pointed out, the dogs are likely not very high in the F generations anyway.
Image

juice
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:20 pm
Location: scotland uk

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by juice » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:38 am

will uc davies put the results on a public site and if there is wolf content would they contact the relevant authorities about it. i think this is the worrying part for a lot of people and why they are hesitating in doing the dna. my own dog has boogie in her lines and i will test but i dont want it made public and the autorities contacted because as you say they cannot say what f they would be. if she did prove positive for wolf where do i stand, would it be my fault or the breeder in which case i would think there would be a case but that would mean a whole lot of work to prove that she knew what she was doing and atm everyone has to much to do with fixing all the lies and cover ups to do all the research. also it would be better if all with wolf content would stand together as we would be stronger as a whole. i think we should wait a while and then open a discussion on where we go next.

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Booma » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:57 am

BinBin wrote: Now, I know the whole wolf blood issue can be frightening. But like someone pointed here already, Boogie is NOT a pure wolf. This much is sure from the facts we have gathered from the Alaskan officials (Wildlife Troopers who confiscated the animals from Wolf COuntry USA) and the rescue center the animals were taken into. The rescue center told me this: "Yes, the ones we got from Wolf Country USA appear to be high content wolfdogs except for three which did not appear to have any wolf lineage (that we can tell from the very confusing DNA results). None of them were pure wolves but there did appear to be four pures whose genetics contributed (at some point down the line) to the heritage of the 29 animals we got." Also, the estimates we have from wolfdog experts are that Boogie is a high content wolfdog, and the wolf/wolves are back several generations. Thus, Boogie's parents and grandparents are also most likely high content wolfdogs, not pure wolves. I.e. Boogie himself is most likely of a filial generation F3 >>. This means Valko and Jodie are NOT F1 wolfdogs, they are most likely F4 onwards, although their "wolf percentage" is near the 50% based on the outlook of the puppies with Blondy and again with puppies with his own daughter, which appear to be very wolfy looking and they behave very wolfy too. The "Little" -litter and Jodie's puppies are thus most likely regarded as F5 or more, their "wolf content" being still near 25%. But again, I'm talking about estimations, I havent contacted Boogie's breeder though as I'm not completely sure his words are to be trusted in this matter. This all also means that no conservation or CITES issues are to be worried, Boogie was bred as a wolfdog. If you want, I can post pictures here of Boogie and the rest of the animals I mentioned.

All this being said, I encourage anyone interested in this to test their dog at UC Davis. They have tested several animals of the SAME wolf blood that Boogie is from, and some Tamaskan have tested positive for wolf blood. It is thus very likely that IF your dog is from a Boogie-line, it will come out as positive. As for the legal bits, if you were sold a dog without wolfblood and this turns out to be a lie, I would assume the owner is not held responsible. And, as has been pointed out, the dogs are likely not very high in the F generations anyway.
Ok so If what you say is correct, and Jodie is an f4, that would make the golden litter f6, which is legally a Dog. but at least one of these pups has tested positive for wolf content. So then the test picks up content to at least an f6.
Image Image

User avatar
BinBin
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:35 am
Location: Keuruu, Finland

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by BinBin » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:11 am

juice wrote:will uc davies put the results on a public site and if there is wolf content would they contact the relevant authorities about it. i think this is the worrying part for a lot of people and why they are hesitating in doing the dna. my own dog has boogie in her lines and i will test but i dont want it made public and the autorities contacted because as you say they cannot say what f they would be. if she did prove positive for wolf where do i stand, would it be my fault or the breeder in which case i would think there would be a case but that would mean a whole lot of work to prove that she knew what she was doing and atm everyone has to much to do with fixing all the lies and cover ups to do all the research. also it would be better if all with wolf content would stand together as we would be stronger as a whole. i think we should wait a while and then open a discussion on where we go next.
I havent seen such a public database, I doubt it because they do the tests also for prosecutors (with the case of Boogie's breeder for example) and basic research. I'm not sure though, it would have to be asked from them. Also, if it comes to that, there are plenty of people here (Reijo, me, my ex, my parents, Vuokko, and plenty of other people working for Reijo and a punch of wolfdog people) than can testify what was said and agreed when Lynn was here. It is not a problem to prove she knows what she bought... But yes, I would advise to test and gather plenty of material first.
Image

juice
Tamific (Novice)
Tamific (Novice)
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:20 pm
Location: scotland uk

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by juice » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:20 am

thats great that you will offer help if anyone wants to take it further. i think this will be one for the future once we all have access to the database and can see where we stand and like i said if we all stand together as a group we will have more punch than doing it in ones and twos. i just hope that no one else is taken in by what she says, she is a mighty fine actress and liar, we should give her an oscar ;) :D :D

User avatar
BinBin
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:35 am
Location: Keuruu, Finland

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by BinBin » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:28 am

Kylievr wrote:Ok so If what you say is correct, and Jodie is an f4, that would make the golden litter f6, which is legally a Dog. but at least one of these pups has tested positive for wolf content. So then the test picks up content to at least an f6.
Yes, but there are two things to consider. One if F-generation and the other is actual wolf content. F-gen can be pretty far from the pure wolf but the animal still have almost full wolf content, act like a wolf and look like a wolf. All depends on what the wolf was mated with and the following generations. And like I said, this was based on the estimations of Boogie's appearance so only an estimation. But for sure he is not PURE wolf. But I understood your puppy if not from Boogie-line, is he? You will need to get yourself ready to give proof to the Australian customs that he does not have wolf blood, as they say it is YOUR responsibility to give this statement when he enters your country.
Image

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Booma » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:33 am

No i don't have to prove he is not a wolf dog. I've posted in the shipping section about this when Margaret and I were getting threatening pms and emails.
My dog is not out of those lines.
Image Image

User avatar
BinBin
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:35 am
Location: Keuruu, Finland

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by BinBin » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:45 am

Kylievr wrote:No i don't have to prove he is not a wolf dog. I've posted in the shipping section about this when Margaret and I were getting threatening pms and emails.
My dog is not out of those lines.
The application for import has a section where it says: "I declare that this animal is not a Pitbull Terrier or American Pitbull Terrier or Fila Brasileiro or Dogo Argentino or Japanese Tosa or Presa Canaria. Also, the animal is not a domestic animal hybrid, such as a wolf, having any
pure-bred ancestor less than 5 generations away." The top of the form says they can use the information in other departments.

I'm only saying that taking the recent developments into consideration it might be wise to get proof he is not a hybrid. :) Like I said, there is really very little chance to prove F-gen for legal uses, but the wolf hybrid test is available.
Image

User avatar
Booma
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Booma » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:27 am

Yes the declaration must be signed but I do not need to give proof. Margaret and I have asked a couple of times each.
Image Image

User avatar
BinBin
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Tamthusiastic (Newbie)
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:35 am
Location: Keuruu, Finland

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by BinBin » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:12 am

Kylievr wrote:Yes the declaration must be signed but I do not need to give proof. Margaret and I have asked a couple of times each.
OK, just wanted you both to be sure that you know what you are signing. :)
Image

User avatar
Katlin
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 2739
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am
Location: Calgary, AB
Contact:

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Katlin » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:16 pm

Kylievr wrote:No i don't have to prove he is not a wolf dog. I've posted in the shipping section about this when Margaret and I were getting threatening pms and emails.
My dog is not out of those lines.
Umm actually in light of recent events, isn't your dog out of Jodie?
Polarose Tamaskan
Polardog Outfitters
Owner of Sierra Kaweah RN RI TDI TRN TTDN CRN-MCL @ Polarose

User avatar
arianwenarie
Tamificent (Guru)
Tamificent (Guru)
Posts: 1244
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 5:07 pm
Location: USA

Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by arianwenarie » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:22 pm

Katlin wrote:
Kylievr wrote:No i don't have to prove he is not a wolf dog. I've posted in the shipping section about this when Margaret and I were getting threatening pms and emails.
My dog is not out of those lines.
Umm actually in light of recent events, isn't your dog out of Jodie?
Balto is Blufawn Glen Campbell, who is out of Gerri (Blufawn Ginger) and Shogun (Alba O'Shean). Rook, the other pup bound for Australia is out of Jodie at Blustag and Jackal at Blustag.

Balto is Kylievr's pup.

EDIT:
Blufawn Dolly Parton is Balto's littermate. Her database record is here: http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/database/dog?id=168

Post Reply