WOLF CONTENT

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tarheel » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:07 am

martinbernstein wrote:Right. But unfortunately in some countries, such as my own native Norway, any dog that contains a drop of wolf, with the odd exception of the Saarloos breed, is illegal.

So if someone in Norway or a country with similar laws gets a Tam, they'd better be prepared to face a legal battle should a test for either American wolf or other subspecies be demanded by the authorities.

I've come to terms with the fact that I can never travel with Froya to Norway. Which sucks because she'd frikkin' love it there.
Have you had Froya tested through UC Davis? Why do you say she could never travel to Norway?
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by martinbernstein » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:32 am

Because the UC Davis tests only test for North American wolf markers. If and when a test for European wolf markers is created Froya will very probably test positive given the Czech vlcak (Oskari at least) in her lineage.

Furthermore, if what Tigerstedt writes is accurate, one look at her at the airport in Norway and she will certainly be singled out by toll agents. They will ask for proof that she does not have wolf in her and I have no proof of that. On the contrary, her pedigree documents show Oskari in her lines from both parents. It doesn't take a genius researcher to google Tamaskan origins and find out all that is needed to know to deem Froya an illegal animal and deny her entry and possibly worse.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Nino » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:14 am

We cannot actually prove 100% that Oskari is Oxbow Léva-Neve as he is now unfortunately diseased.. A parental DNA test can as far as my research goes only be done on a dog and it's parents, but both Jackal's (in my case I've been focussing on Jackal as he is the father of my bitch) parents is dead and so far I have not found anything suggesting that a sibling or the like can be used instead.

As this is Oskari's origin however sure we do feel about it - will always be speculations...

I suggest you talk with Tigerstedt about the possibility to take Frøya to Norway with you, he has as far as I have been told a pretty strong case on the legality of his Tam in Norway.. He might also be able to tell you if you should be able to bring in Frøya legally..
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by martinbernstein » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:15 pm

Nino, yes actually Tigerstedt just gave me a bit of good news about it on a other thread. I'll have to look into it.

Regarding Oskari, I agree with you it can not be 100% proven (until a European wolf marker tear is developed), but I think the anecdotal and circumstantial evidence speaks volumes. And he is not the only suspected wolfdog to have been used.

A DNA test for european wolf markers will be useful in putting any doubt to rest, though I personally have no doubt.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by weylyn » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:17 pm

martinbernstein wrote:Nino, yes actually Tigerstedt just gave me a bit of good news about it on a other thread. I'll have to look into it.

Regarding Oskari, I agree with you it can not be 100% proven (until a European wolf marker tear is developed), but I think the anecdotal and circumstantial evidence speaks volumes. And he is not the only suspected wolfdog to have been used.

A DNA test for european wolf markers will be useful in putting any doubt to rest, though I personally have no doubt.
It can't be proven no but everyone that know the breed know for sure there is a CwD used in that line.
And even than better save than sorry is my opinion........
I just think with all lines it is better to be save, many warned about it and because people didn't listen it can be that some tams are in countries that they do not allowed wolfcontent no matter how low. Of course people think if the test come back that they do not have it they are clear.....but I just will not bet my own doggie kids on that

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by martinbernstein » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:30 pm

Exactly.

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:18 am

I'm wondering since the German Shepherds are said to have European wolves from very far back, would a mutt bred between a GSD and a Siberian husky show up on the European wolf marker test as positive. The GSD does exist in the Tamaskan, Utonagan, some Northern Inuit, and many other northern spitz type mutts as far as I've read and I have the feeling that even though the wolves are many generation removed in the GSD, it might still be detectable in some GSD. I think if many GSD show up to be positive for European wolves once that wolf marker test for European wolves become available despite the breed being no longer considered wolfdog, it might be possible to reference the GSD in the Tamaskan's heritage in order to explain the positive result for European wolves in the Tamaskan and that might be able to in a way prove that the dog is a dog without any recent wolf ancestry and make it a legal breed to take into places where true wolfdogs are banned.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tarheel » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:54 pm

This is from Page One of this thread and is directly from UC Davis Lab.
The population analysis uses 38 DNA markers for the subject which are compared against populations of known wolves and dogs. The dogs in our database are Alaskan Husky, Siberian Husky, Alaskan Malamute, Inuit dogs and German Shepherd dogs. We have wolf samples collected from across North America (Alaska, Canada and assorted populations in the contiguous USA). The population analysis program determines the statistical likelihood of inclusion within the dog or wolf populations. It also calculates the probability that a parent, grandparent or great grandparent is from another population. In the case of XXXXX (name hidden to protect the individual dog) there is wolf contribution detected, but not likely within 3 generations.

We use the 4 sections (or 3 in the case of females) listed above to determine our final analysis of dog, wolf or hybrid.
Is it possible that European Wolves and North American wolves share many of the same DNA Markers? Yes. Is Wolf Content detected in the German Sheperd Dog? No. UC Davis has population of samples from various dogs listed and they can compare them to their population of wolf DNA. THis is how they determine Wolf, Dog, or Wolfdog (Hybrid).

The best way for people to proceed if they are in a wolfdog restricted area, or planning on going to one with their Tamaskan is to beproactive, get a DNA alalysis through UC Davis and look at the results. Otherwise, be proactive and contact your local authorities, show them pictures of your Tamaskan, take them your Registration and pedigree, and show them you have a dog. Get their Ok, and permission, and fill out needed paperwork so you and your Tamaskan are protected in the future. This way you know you are safe, and if not, you have the opportunity to get your dog out of a breed ban area.

In the USA, nobody can come and take your animal without a search warrant, so do not voluntarily give up your dog. Dogs are considered personal property and you can exercize your rights by making them get a warrant. To many times, people are asked by the animal control officer to surrender their dog, and unknowing to the animal owner, they surrender the dog without a fight.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by weylyn » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:05 pm

For a few years back we wanted to go to Australia
We could take our dogs with us but at that time we needed indeed papers for the wolfdogs. Also the rules than was that we could take them if all paperwork was ok but we could only keep them on our own ground.
I do not know how those rules are now........
But like John says no matter where you are, take care of all what is necessary for your doggie kids

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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Tiantai » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:52 pm

Alright, thanks for clearing some confusions John
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by Sylvaen » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:10 pm

weylyn wrote:For a few years back we wanted to go to Australia
We could take our dogs with us but at that time we needed indeed papers for the wolfdogs. Also the rules than was that we could take them if all paperwork was ok but we could only keep them on our own ground.
I do not know how those rules are now........
But like John says no matter where you are, take care of all what is necessary for your doggie kids
I feel so sorry for the Australian owners who will be getting Tams that MIGHT test positive for wolf content (with the UC Davis test) - what a horrible situation. :(

However, as I posted in the Norway thread, perhaps it could be feasible to obtain a special license to own a wolfdog? I suppose it could be quite expensive and probably has relatively strict requirements, but it might be a good alternative option for those who have no other solution at hand. Certainly it would be preferable to confiscation / euthanasia (as a worst case scenario).
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by weylyn » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:12 pm

Sylvaen wrote: I feel so sorry for the Australian owners who will be getting Tams that MIGHT test positive for wolf content (with the UC Davis test) - what a horrible situation. :(

However, as I posted in the Norway thread, perhaps it could be feasible to obtain a special license to own a wolfdog? I suppose it could be quite expensive and probably has relatively strict requirements, but it might be a good alternative option for those who have no other solution at hand. Certainly it would be preferable to confiscation / euthanasia (as a worst case scenario).
Like I said I do not know if the rules about wolfdogs are still the same in Australia but I do think they have to ask about it all before they import their Tams...... As for the people in Norway I agree with you that they have to search for information on this all.

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Wolf Content

Post by Tiantai » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:55 am

It shocked me very much when I was told by someone on facebook that Lynn tried to hide some of these dogs.
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Tatzel » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:54 pm

Tiantai wrote:It shocked me very much when I was told by someone on facebook that Lynn tried to hide some of these dogs.
Honestly? Nothing shocks me about her anymore. Not since I know that she sold a F2 wolfdog to Kirsten and Karsten under the impression that there was no wolf in the breed. Especially because you may not own a wolfdog in Germany which hasn't passed the F5 generation marker. Not without special permission, proper containment and lots of paperwork, anyway.
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Tiantai » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:58 pm

Tatzel wrote:
Honestly? Nothing shocks me about her anymore. Not since I know that she sold a F2 wolfdog to Kirsten and Karsten under the impression that there was no wolf in the breed. Especially because you may not own a wolfdog in Germany which hasn't passed the F5 generation marker. Not without special permission, proper containment and lots of paperwork, anyway.
Off topic but I don't believe that Summer is an F2. Boogie wasn't even a "pure" wolf and the Lockwoodarc where he came from stated in an email forwarded to me that even his parents weren't pure wolves and they don't know exactly how far from the pure wolves he was removed from. We can only speculate but may never know, but we do know that Boogie was indeed a high-content wolfdog. That's something none of us deny.
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Tatzel » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:14 pm

Tiantai wrote: Off topic but I don't believe that Summer is an F2. Boogie wasn't even a "pure" wolf and the Lockwoodarc where he came from stated in an email forwarded to me that even his parents weren't pure wolves and they don't know exactly how far from the pure wolves he was removed from. We can only speculate but may never know, but we do know that Boogie was indeed a high-content wolfdog. That's something none of us deny.
You sure?
According to one of the users (who appearently helped Lynn getting some of the foundation dogs) of the wolfdog.org forum, the whole "little" litter are F2 wolfdogs.
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14592 (scroll down to the first post of the user Tuuli Salmi)
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by caninesrock » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:19 pm

So, I know that anything after F5 is supposedly no longer considered a hybrid according to most wolfdog people,but if there was an F6 dog that was the result of breeding only high content wolfdogs together and not pure wolves, shouldn't it still be considered a hybrid since it would still need special care and a special enclosure as it would probably still be like a high content? (P.S. I know wolfdogs aren't technically hybrids.)

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Tiantai » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:49 am

Tatzel wrote: You sure?
According to one of the users (who appearently helped Lynn getting some of the foundation dogs) of the wolfdog.org forum, the whole "little" litter are F2 wolfdogs.
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14592 (scroll down to the first post of the user Tuuli Salmi)
Well, I don't have permission from Tuuli to "quote" that private message we had about Boogie and Valko plus I already got yelled at this morning for making a bad mistake here and on facebook (my fault for being sleepy and forgetting the rule about private messages) but as I recall, when Tuuli wrote that post in 2010 on the wolfdog forum, I think that she might have thought Boogie was a pure wolf back then. According to the email that she forward to me sent to her from the Lockwoodarc, Boogie was actually one of 29 wolfdogs from Wolf Country USA brought in to that rescue shelter and that none of these wolfdogs were pure wolves. However, they did speculate that there were at least four pure wolves they know about whose genetic did contribute to the lines of the 29 wolfdogs, Boogie included but they are still unclear about his full heritage from generations back other than that he's a high-content wolfdog. It's possible Boogie MIGHT be F2 or F3 but until we get more informations on his mysterious background, we may never know for sure. But IF Boogie is F2 like how I'm suspecting (once again, I'm not too sure so don't take it as fact) then that would make Valko an F3 and Summer an F4.
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by weylyn » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:59 am

well clear or not clear about Boogi I know one thing by having a son of Summer. Her kids are all DOG.
From all the dogs I have here he is the one with no showing genes from that part of his pedigree ;)

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Sylvaen » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:51 am

Tiantai wrote:According to the email that she forward to me sent to her from the Lockwoodarc, Boogie was actually one of 29 wolfdogs from Wolf Country USA brought in to that rescue shelter and that none of these wolfdogs were pure wolves.
Boogie was NOT taken to a rescue center in the US. He was shipped to Finland (via Texas) when he was a pup many years ago, long before Wolf Country USA was closed down.
weylyn wrote:well clear or not clear about Boogi I know one thing by having a son of Summer. Her kids are all DOG.
From all the dogs I have here he is the one with no showing genes from that part of his pedigree ;)
Not ALL of her offspring... I know of at least one dog from that litter that has tested positive as being a 'wolf hybrid' according to the DNA test by UC Davis.
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by weylyn » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:12 pm

Sylvaen wrote:
weylyn wrote:well clear or not clear about Boogi I know one thing by having a son of Summer. Her kids are all DOG.
From all the dogs I have here he is the one with no showing genes from that part of his pedigree ;)
Not ALL of her offspring... I know of at least one dog from that litter that has tested positive as being a 'wolf hybrid' according to the DNA test by UC Davis.
That is why I said "showing" ;) Because yes maybe they can test positive but show all her of spring on a wolf/wolfdog forum where lots of people are with high contents/ mid/low etc and they all will say that they do not see any wolf in the dogs.... I do not know how many genes they must have to let this test be positive but in my eyes it is so small amount that I consider them as totally dog
Yes mine can also test positive but he has all the outside marks of a dog...

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by caninesrock » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:39 pm

Well,if Summer is an F4, that would make her offspring F5 and supposedly,anything F5 or above is not considered a hybrid anymore but all dog I think if I'm not mistaken. (Or maybe it's anything above F5, so like F6 and above. I can never remember.)Though,technically, wolfdogs aren't true hybrids anyway since they are the same species.

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Nino » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:03 am

Tuuli herself have actually said she does not know the content of Boogie in the "No-Wolf History" facebook group.
An experienced wolfdog owner and breeder (who I was recommended to contact) said that he would guestimate Boogie to be a well bred F3 or F4...
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Tiantai » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:19 am

I wonder if it's possible for a high-content wolfdog to display pied-bald colours if the grandparent dog that was used was affected or at least a major carrier of the gene. :geek: So far I've never seen any yet
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Nino » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:19 am

Tiantai wrote:I wonder if it's possible for a high-content wolfdog to display pied-bald colours if the grandparent dog that was used was affected or at least a major carrier of the gene. :geek: So far I've never seen any yet
Just as unlikely as white born high contents.. but they happen too.. rarely..
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Valravn » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:41 am

Nino wrote:
Tiantai wrote:I wonder if it's possible for a high-content wolfdog to display pied-bald colours if the grandparent dog that was used was affected or at least a major carrier of the gene. :geek: So far I've never seen any yet
Just as unlikely as white born high contents.. but they happen too.. rarely..
Aren't those usually inbred?

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Nino » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:30 am

Valravn wrote:
Nino wrote:
Tiantai wrote:I wonder if it's possible for a high-content wolfdog to display pied-bald colours if the grandparent dog that was used was affected or at least a major carrier of the gene. :geek: So far I've never seen any yet
Just as unlikely as white born high contents.. but they happen too.. rarely..
Aren't those usually inbred?
I have no idea.. in theory they don't need to. it just need to be lucky genes..
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by caninesrock » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:45 am

Tiantai wrote:I wonder if it's possible for a high-content wolfdog to display pied-bald colours if the grandparent dog that was used was affected or at least a major carrier of the gene. :geek: So far I've never seen any yet
I don't think it's possible. High contents are distinguished by looking pretty much exactly or almost exactly like pure wolves. If it was a very wolfy looking piebald dog,then it might be considered an upper mid-content though,but more than likely, any piebald wolfdog would be a lower mid or low content in my opinion as piebald is a dog coat color only.

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Nino » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:47 am

caninesrock wrote:
Tiantai wrote:I wonder if it's possible for a high-content wolfdog to display pied-bald colours if the grandparent dog that was used was affected or at least a major carrier of the gene. :geek: So far I've never seen any yet
I don't think it's possible. High contents are distinguished by looking pretty much exactly or almost exactly like pure wolves. If it was a very wolfy looking piebald dog,then it might be considered an upper mid-content though,but more than likely, any piebald wolfdog would be a lower mid or low content in my opinion as piebald is a dog coat color only.
High content is above 75-80% as far as I remember, and it is just as possible as it is with white born wolfdogs, which DOES happen (rarely, but it does!)
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by TerriHolt » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:15 am

Nino wrote:Tuuli herself have actually said she does not know the content of Boogie in the "No-Wolf History" facebook group.
An experienced wolfdog owner and breeder (who I was recommended to contact) said that he would guestimate Boogie to be a well bred F3 or F4...
I don't think it will ever be known for certain unless somebody starts owning up to things and telling the truth which is very unlikely...
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Karen » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:33 am

If you have 2 high-content parents who both carry the piebald genes... ?Pups can still be high content,but have ink pattern.
You wont find it easily I guess.

I don't know exactly how this specific coloring sets on the genes. :?

I have a midcontent piebald here. I love my little cow :mrgreen:

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by caninesrock » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:45 pm

High content is above 75-80% as far as I remember, and it is just as possible as it is with white born wolfdogs, which DOES happen (rarely, but it does!)
It is impossible to tell the exact percentages of wolfdogs. From my understanding, content of wolfdogs is judged by the phenotype (looks).

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Tiantai » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:23 pm

caninesrock wrote:
High content is above 75-80% as far as I remember, and it is just as possible as it is with white born wolfdogs, which DOES happen (rarely, but it does!)
It is impossible to tell the exact percentages of wolfdogs. From my understanding, content of wolfdogs is judged by the phenotype (looks).
I think an 80% affected with the pied-bald gene would easily be mistaken for a 60% at first glance since as Line and Karen have stated above that it's very unlikely for a high-content to show pied-bald. But on the other hand, the percentage is usually just an estimate thing itself and even the phenotype of a wolfdog can cause deceptions, especially among mid-contents in which some lower and upper mid-contents when bred together tend to have pups, including those affected with the pied-bald gene, whose temperaments can jump around up until the F7 generation of by then they are already legally considered domestic dogs.
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Tatzel » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:50 pm

I always thought the percentage thing is kind of bogus, because genes don't work that way. Parents don't pass either 50% of their genes down to their offspring, so it's not like you could do simple maths on it.

I've also read in Erik Zimen's book "Der Wolf" that looks don't matter wether the wolfdog will be acting more on it's wolf genes or not. He was crossbreeding poodles with wolves and some of the F2 offspring were looking wolfier but were acting more like dogs, opposed to some of the more dog-looking offspring which some of them were more timid, skittish and aloof.
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Nino » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:15 pm

Tatzel wrote:I always thought the percentage thing is kind of bogus, because genes don't work that way. Parents don't pass either 50% of their genes down to their offspring, so it's not like you could do simple maths on it.
Actually that is not exactly true.. Parents ALWAYS pass down 50% to their offspring..
Dogs and wolves have 39 pairs of chromosomes (78 in total) one of these pairs determines the sex (and features that follows that if I am not mistaken) and the rest determines other stuff, genes are what the chromosomes are packaging.

Every sperm contains 39 chromosomes, one selected at random from each pair of chromosomes of the father, exactly like every egg also contains 39 chromosomes, one selected at random from each pair of the mothers 39 chromosomes.
This means that 50% of the chromosomes comes from the father (he is also the one who determines the sex of the puppy as he is the only one carrying both a female and a male chromosome) and 50% comes from the mother, therefore the conclusion must be that Parents DO both in fact pass 50% of their chromosomes (which we are often mistakenly classify as and call genes) to their offspring...

Or at least this is what I have always been taught anyway..
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by caninesrock » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:34 pm

@Nino:Wolfdog genes don't work that way though since wolves and dogs are the same species and not true hybrids. There's a good site that explains it like pulling marbles out of a jar. Eh, it's hard to example. Here's the site:
http://www.wolfdogproject.com/percent.htm

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Nino » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:46 pm

I did not say that it was not the same species?

Of course it works that way no matter the species, whether it is the genes from the dog or the wolf grand parents this does not say, it only states that it will always be 50% of each parents, and that which combination of genes are of the outcome is random..

but in a 100% wolf to 100% dog mating there will always be 50% wolf in the offspring, it will never be more or less as this is what it got from each of the parents..
Just like if it was a mating between a 100% German Shepherd Dog and a 100% poodle, all the offspring would be 50/50
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Tatzel » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:53 pm

Nino wrote:
Tatzel wrote:I always thought the percentage thing is kind of bogus, because genes don't work that way. Parents don't pass either 50% of their genes down to their offspring, so it's not like you could do simple maths on it.
Actually that is not exactly true.. Parents ALWAYS pass down 50% to their offspring..
That goes for the first generation of wolf x dogs, but the second and the following generations are really showing a wide varitey of passed down genes even within the same litter.

F1 "Puwos" (poodle x wolf):
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F2 "Puwos":
http://www.genesisnet.info/bild.php?ID=96

And I wouldn't say that the same goes for mixing different dog breeds with one another.
How come that designer-dogs always look different (even within the same litter) and have not a single set look?
I have seen so many Husky/Shepherd mixes and none of them looked the same or had a single, even look like these F1 Puwo dogs
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by weylyn » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:03 pm

It goes always. There is always an inheriting of 50% genes of mam and 50% genes of dad.
But indeed if you go behind the first generation and it is always the question witch 50% they will inherit because if your mam is 50% dog and 50% wolf you can inherit 50 % of dog or 50% of wolf or any combination in between...... That is why it is indeed always hard( not impossible) to work with percentages but there are other things where they set it on like behavior in combination with looks.

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by caninesrock » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:20 am

@Tatzel:Oh, really interesting. Thanks for the pics. I had heard of that poodle-wolf experiment on wikipedia,but hadn't found any photos from it before. The F1's are really interesting looking dogs. Ironically, they kind of remind me of Irish Wolfhounds a little. The F2 are kind of ugly in my opinion though. The one with its mouth open looks like it's teeth are too big for its jaw or something.

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Nino » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:36 am

Tatzel wrote: That goes for the first generation of wolf x dogs, but the second and the following generations are really showing a wide varitey of passed down genes even within the same litter.
This actually makes a LOT of sense, since there is 78 different chromosomes determine how a dog will look and it is always random then each dog will always have a random combination of the each of the parents 78 chromosomes.

This also means that when breeding two different stocks that both have uniquely pool of features that the other stock is likely not to have not only on 1 of the two chromosomes that determines the look of the dog but both of them which also is what makes the breed somewhat uniform.
That is why when breeding the first generation of the Wolf x Poodle mix the dogs all have just around the same looks, the things like the softer ears, Black color and kinda scruffy looking coat around the same length, the "beard" etc. this is because all of these are dominant traits. When the two stocks are bred together the offspring gets 50% of the chromosome from each parent only showing the one that is most dominant (like the Dominant black of the poodle), this does NOT mean that each of the offspring does not have have the other half of the chromosome pair because we can not see it.

How do we know this? That we do because the four offspring of the second generation does not look exactly like the first generation which they are offspring off.
The first generation is not uniform in its Chromosomes, because it have half of the characteristics chromosomes comes from the Wolf and the other from the poodle, and therefore there is a wide variety of chances that each second generation can end up having, since it also can be assumed that several chromosomes can have impact on different characteristics then getting different combinations of chromosomes can give different looks even if one dog is only slightly different set of chromosomes than another dog/sibling.

This means that in the first generation of two very different but still uniform stocks it makes sense that the dogs have the looks of in between the two, but in the second generation it is likely to have any combination of the two stocks characteristics and therefore will look very different from each other.

Also it makes a lot of sense that the second generation looks quite different from each others because there is 39^3 possible combinations of chromosomes that each of the second generation pups can have if we assume that both the wolf and the poodle came from stock so uniform that each Chromosome in each 39 pairs were the same.. this makes a possible Chromosome combination of 59319 probably more! Of course we cannot assume that all of the Chromosomes represents physical traits but even if it is only half that does this it would still be quite a few combination possibilities..
Tatzel wrote: How come that designer-dogs always look different (even within the same litter) and have not a single set look?
A lot of these dogs can be considered the same combination as the second generation of the wolf x poodle mix because their original breeding stock is not as uniform and different as that of the poodle and the wolf.
Tatzel wrote: I have seen so many Husky/Shepherd mixes and none of them looked the same or had a single, even look like these F1 Puwo dogs
Well you really cannot compare Husky/Shepherd mixes with Wolf/Poodle mixes.. eg. the Husky have quite a wider possible physical traits than the wolf, and the Poodle quite a slim possible physical traits than a lot of breeds..
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Nimwey » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:42 am

Well, just because mixed offspring look more like one parent than the other, and they look very different from each other, doesn't mean one has 20% of its fathers genes and 80% of its mothers, while another has 55% of its fathers genes and 45% of its mothers.

It still has 50/50, the genes have just been used for different things than what can be seen on the surface (such as coat or basic shape of the head or body), am I right?
I mean, there are other things that genes make up than that. Everything from temperament to building bones, muscle and intestines, have to do with genes. And those things (the latter), you can't really tell which parent it comes from. :P

I may be a complete n00b at this, but...
Of course it works that way no matter the species, whether it is the genes from the dog or the wolf grand parents this does not say, it only states that it will always be 50% of each parents, and that which combination of genes are of the outcome is random..
...makes the most sense.
If I don't look or behave anything like my mother (for example), but almost exactly like my father, that still doesn't mean I don't have 50% of my mothers genes. ;)
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Ryphen » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:27 pm

I don't think anyone is arguing that each parent doesn't contribute 50% of the genetic material to its offspring. But when you're talking about intercrosses that aren't F1 progeny, they will receive differing amounts of the original parents alleles.

Let's take a GSD/husky cross as an example. Let's say the father is GSD and the mother is husky. Cross them together for your F1 generation and all the pups in the litter are going to look and act more or less the same because all of them contain 50% GSD (from dad) and 50% husky (from mom). What they're going to look like and how they're going to act will be based on whichever allele of the pair that makes up each gene is more dominant.

Now let's say you cross two of the F1s to make an F2 generation. This is where you have to start tracking where the specific alleles go. I'm going to use a hypothetical example just to illustrate how it works. Let's say we're looking at ear size. Each of the F1 offspring had one GSD allele for ear size and one for husky ear size, so they all had relatively the same size ears compared to each other. But now when you cross the two F1s, there are more possibilities. The F2 can get either two GSD alleles, one GSD and one husky allele (like the F1 has), or two husky alleles. So the F2 can look more like its parents, or like one of its grandparents (the husky and the GSD).

Now do this for every gene in the F2, and you'll see why people talk about different percentages of the original breeds that went into a cross. I hope that makes sense. Still way too early on a Sunday to be typing about genetics.

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by caninesrock » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:02 am

Nino wrote:I did not say that it was not the same species?

Of course it works that way no matter the species, whether it is the genes from the dog or the wolf grand parents this does not say, it only states that it will always be 50% of each parents, and that which combination of genes are of the outcome is random..

but in a 100% wolf to 100% dog mating there will always be 50% wolf in the offspring, it will never be more or less as this is what it got from each of the parents..
Just like if it was a mating between a 100% German Shepherd Dog and a 100% poodle, all the offspring would be 50/50
Oh. Sorry. I misunderstod what you said. And yes, pure wolf to pure dog cross would be 50 % of each,but wolfdog to wolf or wolfdog to dog or wolfdog to wolfdog can have varying percentages per litter. In an F2 litter, you could have siblings where one animal is 80% wolf due to inheriting more wolf genes and it's brother is only 20% wolf due to inheriting more dog genes.

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Tiantai » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:45 am

Yep, crossing wolfdogs with other wolfdogs will definitely give varying %. Many mid-contents crossed with each other result with some pups being upper-mids and some with lower-mid contents. But from my understanding so far, the upper-mids would have a lower chance of pied-bald than the lower-mids assuming if the pied-bald gene is stilled carried in any of those wolfdogs
caninesrock wrote:@Tatzel:Oh, really interesting. Thanks for the pics. I had heard of that poodle-wolf experiment on wikipedia,but hadn't found any photos from it before. The F1's are really interesting looking dogs. Ironically, they kind of remind me of Irish Wolfhounds a little. The F2 are kind of ugly in my opinion though. The one with its mouth open looks like it's teeth are too big for its jaw or something.
They also crossed the poodles with golden jackals, dingoes, and coyotes as well as other crazy crossings like coyote-dingoes, jackal-coyotes, coyotes-grey wolves, jackal-grey wolves, and dingo-grey wolves.

(offtopic)
What I find odd though (aside from the fact that they decided to use poodles out of all the variety of dog breeds available) is that they concluded that the coyotes and jackals to be different species from the dogs, dingoes, and grey wolves based on the fact that the third generations jackal-dogs, coydogs, coydingoes, and coywolves had reduced fertility and communication issues in comparison to the F3 dingoe-dogs and dingoe-wolf hybrids. But although we now know that the coyotes and jackals ARE different species of canines based on the more recent DNA testings, there are people who still question if all the problems that occurred back then with those jackal-dogs, coydogs, coydingoes, and coywolves was really from the fact that they were inbreds and not necessarily because they're a hybrid of different species. I personally believe this theory about the problems stemming from them inbreeding to be the case as well since the wild Eastern coywolves here in Canada don't seem to have any known problems.
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Nino » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:56 am

You should try searching the forum.. I have given a nice explanation about this before.. If I have to say it myself anyway
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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by caninesrock » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:14 pm

They also crossed the poodles with golden jackals, dingoes, and coyotes as well as other crazy crossings like coyote-dingoes, jackal-coyotes, coyotes-grey wolves, jackal-grey wolves, and dingo-grey wolves.
Are there any pictures of those as well?

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Re: PIEBALD ("ink spot" color pattern)

Post by Tiantai » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:37 am

caninesrock wrote:
They also crossed the poodles with golden jackals, dingoes, and coyotes as well as other crazy crossings like coyote-dingoes, jackal-coyotes, coyotes-grey wolves, jackal-grey wolves, and dingo-grey wolves.
Are there any pictures of those as well?
They were only mentioned in this book (which is in German and unfortunately I don't know if it was ever translated into English): This is the revised version from 2004

Doris Feddersen-Petersen, Hundepsychologie, 4. Auflage, 2004, Franck-Kosmos-Verlag 2004

Basically the experiment was intended to determine if all of those animals were closely related or the same species. Based on the fact that the coywolves, wolf-jackals, and coydogs had reduced fertility after the 3rd generation, they concluded based on that alone that the Grey wolves, Golden Jackals, and coyotes are different species of canines but are still closely related while the dogs, dingoes, and wolves are the same species. However, even today there is still questions about this experiment's conclusion since they concluded that the former three are different species based on the hybrid's reduced fertility alone and not DNA analysis. For all I know, the reduced fertility could have been the result of inbreeding since the wild coywolves here in Eastern and Atlantic Canada as well as the Grey wolf/Golden Jackal hybrids in Senegal have been existing for hundreds of years and are all reproducing like normal wolves and coyote per breeding season without problems.
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by LiannaeLeagadh » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:20 pm

I ran across these sites the other day: http://the-no-wolf-tamaskan-fable.blogspot.com/ & http://tdrliesandhumor.blogspot.com/
It was on Ta-Kari Tamaskans site: http://www.takari-tamaskans.com
I know they have not been updated in awhile (2010), and while Blustag & Blufawn where still in the TDR (if i'm correct ???)

What I'm looking at is the info on dogs themselves listed on the 1st site:

""BOOGIE Alaskan Tundra Wolf (“Ivan” on TDR pedigrees)
Boogie, an Alaskan Tundra (interior) Wolf, was imported from the United States to Finland by a woman, N.S., who also imported another wolf pup at the same time. The authorities confiscated Boogie while he was still puppy, and he was rehomed at Polar Speed in Lapland, where he remains today.  An article posted April 4, 2008 [Finnish version / English translation] regarding Polar Speed’s husky park confirms this and shows Boogie to be a “Tundra wolf”.  The most recent article dated February 27, 2009 also references Alaskan Tundra Wolf Boogie and introduces the article with a picture of him.
Boogie was mated with a 100% Siberian Husky (bi-eyed blue and brown) named Blondy av Vargevass.  They produced a litter of seven puppies at Polar Speed, including Henki and Valko.  The dam of the litter, Blondy, as well as Henki and Valko, were purchased by Blustag. ""


""BLONDY Siberian Husky (bi-eyed) (“Dixy” on TDR pedigrees) 
Blondy is a purebred Siberian Husky out of Polar Speed in Lapland.""


''VALKO F1 Wolfdog (“Whitefang” on TDR pedigrees)
Valko is an F1 wolfdog. His sire is Boogie (100% Alaskan Tundra wolf) and dam Blondy av Vargevass (100% Siberian Husky).  Valko and his sister, Henki, were both purchased by Blustag from Polar Speed at approximately eight months of age.  Valko was listed as a Wolfdog on the June 21, 2006 archive of Blustag's site.  ""


""HENKI F1 Wolfdog ("Jodie at Blustag" on TDR Pedigrees)
Henki was born of   Boogie (a pure Alaskan Tundra Wolf imported to Finland) and Blondy (a pure Siberian Husky), both of Polar Speed in Lapland.  Henki is one of the six puppies/dogs purchased by Blustag from  Lapland. Henki has a brother named Valko who was also purchased by Blustag.  ""
http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/database/do ... g=pedigree

""OXBOW LEVA-NEVE Czechoslovakian Wolfdog  ("Oskari" on TDR pedigrees) Updated 11/17/09 (below)
Oxbow Leva-Neve is listed as ”Oskari” in the TDR Foundation book as “the most influential male in the Tamaskan pedigree.”   He is also referred to as Osku in Finland, sometimes translated in English as Odie.  A forum post from May 2005 confirms that he is owned by Polar Speed [click here for English translation].   His published pedigree documents that he is a pure Czechoslovakian wolfdog, and his registered name is Oxbow Leva-Neve.  This has also been confirmed by three separate sources in Finland.  Oxbow Leva-Neve (Oskari) was not bred by Polar Speed.  [He is not to be confused with Polar Speed Oskari, who is a Siberian Husky owned by Wild Motion Kennels.  He was bred by Polar Speed and sold as a puppy with a female littermate, Olga, to Wild Motion kennels in Finland.] ""
http://www.wolfdog.org/site/dbase/d/10973

""HEIDI F2 Wolfdog (Heidi at Blustag on TDR Pedigrees)
Documentation from Finnish sources close to Heidi’s breeder (I.A.) confirms that Heidi was one of eight puppies out of Valko and Sara.  Heidi’s official pedigree from a Finnish database further confirms this.  Additionally, an email dated April 16, 2008 from Valko’s owner (rehomed from Blustag) reveals that "a puppy from Valko and Sara when to the UK and is now known as Heidi at Blustag".""
http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/database/do ... g=pedigree

Yogi  (Kenai at Blustag) -Wolfdog-
Yogi/Kenai is out of Shadow at Olderhill (shown as Taz on TDR pedigrees). Taz is a higher content, black wolfdog.  Yogi/Kenai is a full brother to Black Falcon (also on TDR pedigrees), son to Taz and uncle to Anzara .  Anzara is listed on many TDR pedigrees.  He is the sire of Blustag Menominee Owl, Blustag Inuit Crow, Blustag Pawnee Lynx, Blustag Dakota Buffalo and Blustag Apache Horse, as well as the sire of Iola/Tumanra at Blustag.""
Tumanra: http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/database/do ... g=pedigree

& this bit that's on the 2nd

""PEDIGREE INFORMATION and PUPPIES
Blustag has had several litters between late 2009 and early 2010 (and at least one other breeder has had) that have produced F2 and F3 wolfdog puppies (parents: Heidi, Skye, Summer & Jodie). Several puppies of these litters have found/are finding there way to TDR registered 'breeders' in the United States (Alabama and North Carolina are two locations).""


Summer: http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/database/do ... g=pedigree
Skye: http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/database/do ... g=pedigree

Based off of what I can find in the pedigrees, and some of the threads on this forum, and the OP in this thread, it looks like it's accurate.

Is it? :?: :?:
( And I apologize if this has been posted before )
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Re: WOLF CONTENT

Post by weylyn » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:58 pm

Boogi isn't a 100% wolf. He is a high content wolfdog

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