Registered Tamaskans

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
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Registered Tamaskans

Post by nivenj » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:13 am

Apologies if I posted this elsewhere, I thought I did but cant find it :-S

I'm curious as to how many registered Tamaskans there are worldwide currently? I ask as the Wiki entry says fewer than 3000, which could really mean 0-3000 although i suspect the entry is eluding to closer to the 3000. If it is 3000 and we only started registering Tam's since 2006 thats 500 a year (50+ litters a year?). Is this correct? Or are there Tams born prior to 2006 that are in the register?
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by blufawn » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:38 am

The total number of Tamaskan in the world is a closely guarded secret, but I can tell you that it is much closer to the 1000 than it is to the 3000
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
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Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by nivenj » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:40 am

blufawn wrote:The total number of Tamaskan in the world is a closely guarded secret
:lol:

1000 seems a more realistic number, thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Nikola1985Ghaeltacht » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:41 am

blufawn wrote:The total number of Tamaskan in the world is a closely guarded secret

Why :?:
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by blufawn » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:51 am

It was basically done for breeders (and owners) moral in the beginning. If people thought there were too few Tamaskan they may believe the breed was not as established as they had hoped or panic that more outcrosses were needed. If they thought there were too many Tamaskan they may think we have been overbreeding to get the numbers up.
I think people would find there are a lot less Tamaskan in the world than they imagine, but there is no need to panic, we are still an established breed with enough lines to keep us going for years to come.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
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And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Nikola1985Ghaeltacht » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:53 am

blufawn wrote:It was basically done for breeders (and owners) moral in the beginning. If people thought there were too few Tamaskan they may believe the breed was not as established as they had hoped or panic that more outcrosses were needed. If they thought there were too many Tamaskan they may think we have been overbreeding to get the numbers up.
I think people would find there are a lot less Tamaskan in the world than they imagine, but there is no need to panic, we are still an established breed with enough lines to keep us going for years to come.

Cool. Cool cool cool :D
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by nivenj » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:59 am

I wasn't really asking out of concern or anything, its just people are asking me about the breed when I tell them about them. Seems to be a common question I get asked. The wiki number did seem high, hence my question :-)
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by AngieH » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:49 pm

Nikola1985Ghaeltacht wrote:
blufawn wrote:It was basically done for breeders (and owners) moral in the beginning. If people thought there were too few Tamaskan they may believe the breed was not as established as they had hoped or panic that more outcrosses were needed. If they thought there were too many Tamaskan they may think we have been overbreeding to get the numbers up.
I think people would find there are a lot less Tamaskan in the world than they imagine, but there is no need to panic, we are still an established breed with enough lines to keep us going for years to come.

Cool. Cool cool cool :D
:shock: "Cool" :? Really?

Um.... Am I reading this correctly? Am I the only one seeing this?
How is this not "lying to manipulate public opinion" exactly?
I'm sorry to put it so harshly, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Your heart may have been in the right place (a harmless obfuscation to encourage prospective breeders and owners) but is this an example of responsible, ethical practice? I think I'm beginning to see how contraversies, betrayals, bad feelings and rumors might have had the opportunity to come about.

Sincerity, honesty and transparency are often difficult. They can leave you open to questions and criticisms. (about being established, about needing outcrosses) But at least they only leave you open to *legitimate* questions and offer opportunity to confront sincere criticisms. (As opposed to having to confront "lies" born of conjecture, rumor and and suspicion... like wolves with fake records and all that.)

"How many are there?" "What breeds of dogs did you use and why?" Are really simple, basic, questions any prospective owner or breeder might have. I would think there should be no need to obscure or manipulate the answers to such basic questions of such general interest.

No one can deny the value, the uniqueness or the desirability of these lovely dogs. They stand in testamony to your good work. There is *nothing* to be embarrassed about regarding their rarity or ashamed of in respect to their make-up and background.
Transparency can only be your friend.

I thank you for hearing me.
Here I stand,

-Angie

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by nivenj » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:03 pm

AngieH wrote:
Nikola1985Ghaeltacht wrote:
blufawn wrote:It was basically done for breeders (and owners) moral in the beginning. If people thought there were too few Tamaskan they may believe the breed was not as established as they had hoped or panic that more outcrosses were needed. If they thought there were too many Tamaskan they may think we have been overbreeding to get the numbers up.
I think people would find there are a lot less Tamaskan in the world than they imagine, but there is no need to panic, we are still an established breed with enough lines to keep us going for years to come.

Cool. Cool cool cool :D
:shock: "Cool" :? Really?

Um.... Am I reading this correctly? Am I the only one seeing this?
How is this not "lying to manipulate public opinion" exactly?
I'm sorry to put it so harshly, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Your heart may have been in the right place (a harmless obfuscation to encourage prospective breeders and owners) but is this an example of responsible, ethical practice? I think I'm beginning to see how contraversies, betrayals, bad feelings and rumors might have had the opportunity to come about.

Sincerity, honesty and transparency are often difficult. They can leave you open to questions and criticisms. (about being established, about needing outcrosses) But at least they only leave you open to *legitimate* questions and offer opportunity to confront sincere criticisms. (As opposed to having to confront "lies" born of conjecture, rumor and and suspicion... like wolves with fake records and all that.)

"How many are there?" "What breeds of dogs did you use and why?" Are really simple, basic, questions any prospective owner or breeder might have. I would think there should be no need to obscure or manipulate the answers to such basic questions of such general interest.

No one can deny the value, the uniqueness or the desirability of these lovely dogs. They stand in testamony to your good work. There is *nothing* to be embarrassed about regarding their rarity or ashamed of in respect to their make-up and background.
Transparency can only be your friend.

I thank you for hearing me.
Here I stand,

-Angie

(I yeild the floor. You are all free to reply un-rebutted
A bit Harsh dont you think?

I dont think there is anything underhand or unethical, but I also dont necessarily see the need for secrecy. Its just a policy at the end of the day. Lots of organisations keep certain data under wraps, for lots of reasons.
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Molly » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:15 pm

Severe ? absolutely not ! I find this reaction instead purely logical and quite adult ...
Do you have not fed breeders' Tamaskans always want to hide things ?
Even the number of born Tamaskans held in the shadow ! .... it's really amazing this perspective .... All livestock constantly conceal .... And then you wonder that so many rumors ?

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Molly » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:18 pm

AngieH wrote:
"How many are there?" "What breeds of dogs did you use and why?" Are really simple, basic, questions any prospective owner or breeder might have. I would think there should be no need to obscure or manipulate the answers to such basic questions of such general interest.

No one can deny the value, the uniqueness or the desirability of these lovely dogs. They stand in testamony to your good work. There is *nothing* to be embarrassed about regarding their rarity or ashamed of in respect to their make-up and background.
Transparency can only be your friend.
Je suis tout à fait de cet avis, vous avez parfaitement raison ! Bravo !

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by nivenj » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:40 pm

Molly wrote:Severe ? absolutely not ! I find this reaction instead purely logical and quite adult ...
Do you have not fed breeders' Tamaskans always want to hide things ?
Even the number of born Tamaskans held in the shadow ! .... it's really amazing this perspective .... All livestock constantly conceal .... And then you wonder that so many rumors ?
LOL

Its hardly a conspiracy :-). I don't get the hostility here. I asked how many registered Tamaskans there are, the TDR (who own the database) say its not policy to disclose that. Where's the problem in that?

I've not been a member here long, but the vast majority seem level headed and are purely here in the interest of the breed and the love of their Tams. I dont quite understand why people with an axe to grind just dont move on? If I didnt like the way things are run I wouldnt stick around I'd just move on. Wierd :-S
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:55 pm

nivenj wrote:I dont quite understand why people with an axe to grind just dont move on? If I didnt like the way things are run I wouldnt stick around I'd just move on. Wierd :-S
i have thought that for quite sometime now... just couldn't think of the right way to phrase it without sounding rude :D

keeping the number of dogs quiet while in low numbers will also protect the owners if they wish to remain private ...

say there are 1489 pups out there... it will be easy thru shear process of elimination to find where all the dogs are... the number of dog thefts have risen in the uk dramatically, don't know about the other corners of the world and staying quiet with a rare breed will keep the owner and dogs somewhat safer... it's not just theft either... look at what happened to the tarheel pack... it could happen to anyone in theory...

anyone hear could ask around where i live and Sam could be found with in the hour...

while the numbers remain low... it kinda makes sense and it's not as if it is a dire need to know piece of valuable data :roll: it just could be misused by others...
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by skyedream » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:09 pm

I'm not sure how knowing the amount of tamaskan in the world would lead to a spate of dog thefts and poisonings but to be honest I don't see how guarding this secret or coming clean about it would make any difference to anyone at all. It's fairly useless but slightly interesting information to anyone outside of the TDR and possibly breeding community.

I also agree with Terri and nivenj, if I wasn't happy with the TDR's methods then I would just forget about them. Buy a malamute or husky and get on with my life...
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Sylvaen » Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:04 am

TerriHolt wrote:say there are 1489 pups out there... it will be easy thru shear process of elimination to find where all the dogs are... the number of dog thefts have risen in the uk dramatically, don't know about the other corners of the world and staying quiet with a rare breed will keep the owner and dogs somewhat safer... it's not just theft either... look at what happened to the tarheel pack... it could happen to anyone in theory...
I think a lot of people are also forgetting that it is simple and easy to just say 1000-3000 Tamaskans in total - that way we don't have to constantly update the number every time a new litter is born: 1489, 1490, 1491... it would get really tedious and someone would have to update it regularly. Then what happens if someone forgets to update it on (for instance) Wikipedia and (oh noes!) there's a different number on the TDR website: CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!!!"!"!!!!!!11 :roll:

Another thing to keep in mind, the number of REGISTERED Tamaskan Dogs is much less than the number of UNREGISTERED Tamaskan Dogs worldwide BUT many of those dogs, even without registration, are still PURE Tamaskan (J&J's recent litter, Conchur's litters, etc etc). The problem is, who actually knows the TOTAL number of unregistered Tamaskan Dogs when there are so many breeders out there who are just 'doing their own thing' and mass producing / cross breeding 'Tamaskans' (Ratliff / RPK / etc). So when someone asks: 'how many Tamaskan Dogs are there?' do you really want to split hairs and say... weeeell, there are XXXX registered dogs and XXXX unregistered dogs (which would be a wild guess anyway, since no one really knows how many unregistered Tamaskans there are worldwide... we can only keep track of the ones that ARE registered)... and then that would lead you into the whole conversation of why some dogs are registered and others are not (same with breeders) and what the differences are, etc etc... in the end a simple answer can save a lot of hassle and time so when I bump into random people when I'm out walking my dogs, I don't bother going into the full story; I just keep it short and simple: "between 1000-3000 dogs worldwide" - the end. Does it mean there's some huge conspiracy going on to purposefully dupe and mislead the public? lol... no... but not everyone is interested to hear the whole long-winded explanation. :lol:
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Nikola1985Ghaeltacht » Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:43 am

AngieH wrote:
Nikola1985Ghaeltacht wrote:
blufawn wrote:It was basically done for breeders (and owners) moral in the beginning. If people thought there were too few Tamaskan they may believe the breed was not as established as they had hoped or panic that more outcrosses were needed. If they thought there were too many Tamaskan they may think we have been overbreeding to get the numbers up.
I think people would find there are a lot less Tamaskan in the world than they imagine, but there is no need to panic, we are still an established breed with enough lines to keep us going for years to come.

Cool. Cool cool cool :D
:shock: "Cool" :? Really?

Um.... Am I reading this correctly? Am I the only one seeing this?
How is this not "lying to manipulate public opinion" exactly?
I'm sorry to put it so harshly, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Your heart may have been in the right place (a harmless obfuscation to encourage prospective breeders and owners) but is this an example of responsible, ethical practice? I think I'm beginning to see how contraversies, betrayals, bad feelings and rumors might have had the opportunity to come about.

Sincerity, honesty and transparency are often difficult. They can leave you open to questions and criticisms. (about being established, about needing outcrosses) But at least they only leave you open to *legitimate* questions and offer opportunity to confront sincere criticisms. (As opposed to having to confront "lies" born of conjecture, rumor and and suspicion... like wolves with fake records and all that.)

"How many are there?" "What breeds of dogs did you use and why?" Are really simple, basic, questions any prospective owner or breeder might have. I would think there should be no need to obscure or manipulate the answers to such basic questions of such general interest.

No one can deny the value, the uniqueness or the desirability of these lovely dogs. They stand in testamony to your good work. There is *nothing* to be embarrassed about regarding their rarity or ashamed of in respect to their make-up and background.
Transparency can only be your friend.

I thank you for hearing me.
Here I stand,

-Angie

(I yeild the floor. You are all free to reply un-rebutted.)
I hope one day you will understand why I wrote what I wrote :|
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Katlin » Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:49 am

I think there are merits to what Angie has said...although it is harsh. We DO need to pick up and move on. The breed is expanding, and therefore the number would be hard to calculate exactly for the reasons Debby has said. We are brining up an old argument that does not need to be brought up...again!
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by nivenj » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:38 am

Katlin wrote:I think there are merits to what Angie has said...although it is harsh. We DO need to pick up and move on. The breed is expanding, and therefore the number would be hard to calculate exactly for the reasons Debby has said. We are brining up an old argument that does not need to be brought up...again!
....and if I had known the discord it was going to cause I wouldn't have asked. I honestly had no idea and thought it was an innocuous question. Its a shame as its going to make me think twice about asking things now in case it inflames fragile sensibilities. Its always the few that spoil it for the majority, isnt it.
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Rahne » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:35 am

I'm all for transparency but sometimes people are overreacting a bit.. Right now if people ask me how many Tamaskan there are in the Netherlands I will tell them 6. But if there would be 96 Tamaskan I would most likely say around 100 and in the case of 876 I would say just under 1000. There is nothing behind that, for me it would make more sense to say it like that then to give an exact number.

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by blufawn » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:45 am

I can't understand how the public not knowing the exact amount of Tamaskan alive on this day is somehow a cover up?
I think some people are searching for conspiracy now.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
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And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by AZDehlin » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:54 am

nivenj wrote: ....and if I had known the discord it was going to cause I wouldn't have asked. I honestly had no idea and thought it was an innocuous question. Its a shame as its going to make me think twice about asking things now in case it inflames fragile sensibilities. Its always the few that spoil it for the majority, isnt it.
It is and innocent question, don't let a few people's opinions stear you away from asking questions.

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by blufawn » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:55 am

Totally agree...... we dont mind questions and will try to answer them as calmly as possible in future... ;)
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Lilli » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:55 am

blufawn wrote:I can't understand how the public not knowing the exact amount of Tamaskan alive on this day is somehow a cover up?
I think some people are searching for conspiracy now.
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Booma » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:19 am

I don't really get why it's a big deal?? Is it that the breed is relatively new? Noone would ask how many German shepherds are in the world, or great Danes or huskies etc
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Rahne » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:23 am

I wonder if you would ask this question to any other breed club they would give you an exact number? Somehow I think this will not be the case..

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Booma » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:43 am

nivenj wrote:
Kyliedelonge wrote:I don't really get why it's a big deal?? Is it that the breed is relatively new? Noone would ask how many German shepherds are in the world, or great Danes or huskies etc
Its not a big deal, some people are just jumping on this thread to score points in my opinion. I wish it would be locked so we can move on. (Edit: Not you Kyliedelonge, others)

Oh I didn't mean you for asking the question, I meant the people being all funny because not everyone knows how many there are in the world.
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Czertice » Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:18 pm

I think you are too cautious, it doesn't make a difference if you say "between a thousand and two thousand" or "1234" anyway:] You just make people ask why are you keeping it secret. Secrets breed mistrust, unnecessarily.
In my opinion: not keeping the more precise number secret would be a better PR.

Noone can deduce where you live with your dogs just from such abstract number.
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Gaby » Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:44 pm

I think people are not surprised that the number isn't exact, but I think they react to this: "The total number of Tamaskan in the world is a closely guarded secret". Of course I see that you say "around 1500" if there would be exactly "1458" Tamaskans and other people do too, but I don't understand why it has to be a closely guarded secret. So I agree with Czertice.

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by blufawn » Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:52 pm

We have discussed the number before, a long time ago, so perhaps on the previous forum where I gave close numbers, such as between 200 - 500. Its not as closely guarded that I cannot give people a rough idea which is why I said it is closer to the 1000 than it is to the 3000.
If it helps there are 10 more this week than the week before, 15 more than the week before that and 22 more than in Feb....... that may give you some idea as to why we dont hand out the exact number, because it changes.
If anyone wanted to know how many Tamaskan existed at the time of them picking up their own puppy they need only look at the number on their registration documents and they would know, its no BIG secret, we are not hiding a terrible crime you know.
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Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
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And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Gaby » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:00 pm

Haha, no, I know. But that explanation sounds a lot better than the first post, thanks! ;)

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Katlin » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:15 pm

nivenj wrote:
Kyliedelonge wrote:I don't really get why it's a big deal?? Is it that the breed is relatively new? Noone would ask how many German shepherds are in the world, or great Danes or huskies etc
Its not a big deal, some people are just jumping on this thread to score points in my opinion. I wish it would be locked so we can move on. (Edit: Not you Kyliedelonge, others)
Sorry! I didn't mean to make it sound like I was frustrated by you, I just think that some people over-react to innocent questions, you can see now what I meant :) It's silly and childish that people should think that Jennie and Lynn are hiding it because there is something to hide... :lol: :roll:
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Blustag » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:59 pm

Gaby wrote:I think people are not surprised that the number isn't exact, but I think they react to this: "The total number of Tamaskan in the world is a closely guarded secret". Of course I see that you say "around 1500" if there would be exactly "1458" Tamaskans and other people do too, but I don't understand why it has to be a closely guarded secret. So I agree with Czertice.
Actually this all started out as a joke WAY back a closely guarded secret". I guess there are those here that just dont
have a sense of humour :roll:

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Gaby » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:22 pm

Blustag wrote:
Gaby wrote:I think people are not surprised that the number isn't exact, but I think they react to this: "The total number of Tamaskan in the world is a closely guarded secret". Of course I see that you say "around 1500" if there would be exactly "1458" Tamaskans and other people do too, but I don't understand why it has to be a closely guarded secret. So I agree with Czertice.
Actually this all started out as a joke WAY back a closely guarded secret". I guess there are those here that just dont
have a sense of humour :roll:
Sorry, I didn't know that.

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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by AngieH » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:36 pm

blufawn wrote:We have discussed the number before, a long time ago, so perhaps on the previous forum where I gave close numbers, such as between 200 - 500. Its not as closely guarded that I cannot give people a rough idea which is why I said it is closer to the 1000 than it is to the 3000.
If it helps there are 10 more this week than the week before, 15 more than the week before that and 22 more than in Feb....... that may give you some idea as to why we dont hand out the exact number, because it changes.
If anyone wanted to know how many Tamaskan existed at the time of them picking up their own puppy they need only look at the number on their registration documents and they would know, its no BIG secret, we are not hiding a terrible crime you know.

So... There is nothing to hide and when someone asks the trivial question, "So how many Tamaskan Dogs are there anyway?" an open and honest choice *could* be made to just check the last registration number and simply reply, "we are up to XXXX registered Tamaskan Dogs now. But there are others not in our registry and more being born all the time."

Your prefered choice of a vague reply, justification how an accurate answer is impossible and innitial discussion of how the number, if disclosed, may effect perceptions of breed establishment and breeders possible "panic" over the perceived need for out crosses ... is baffling.

PS - Thank you, everyone. I enjoyed this display of group dynamics in the face of cognitive dissonance. Fascinating.

PPS - Lynn, sorry I was never "in" on your joke. But even without the "closely guarded secret" comment, it still seems to be an obscure and distractive way to address such a simple question doesn't it?

PPPS - Today, as an experiment, I emailed 3 breed clubs in the USA (Beagle, German Shepherd, and Poodle) asking how many dogs they had registered. Perhaps this *is* an unreasonable question. I'll let you know how (and if) they respond. I'll give them a week before deciding they're ignoring me. Is anyone else curious? Breed club dynamics is all new to me. Again, fascinating.
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Re: Registered Tamaskans

Post by Rahne » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:26 pm

Sorry guys but this is getting out of hand! I've locked the topic for now, hope you understand. Can people please refrain from public fights and deal with these issues trough private messages!

Locked