Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

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Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by martinbernstein » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:11 am

I am saddened by all the negative comments about Aatu/TBA folks on this forum and I feel the need to add some Aatu positivity to the forum.

The TDR/TBA relationship is clearly a loaded and complicated one. I make no claim to know all the details or all parties involved, but I have had the pleasure of speaking with both Aatu and TDR Tamaskan owners and breeders. I am the owner of a TBA registered Tam and am a member of the TBA, but I still love getting to know and sharing info and advice with TDR dog owners.

I've read far too many negative comments about Aatu and TBA members, many of which have little to no truth to them, some of which are highly speculative, and others which are downright malicious.

The TBA is made up of several individuals, each with their own personal styles, ethics and values. I hope that folks on this forum recognize this and that they consider this when reading about Aatu in the "Scams" section and other threads with unflattering content. I plan to become an Aatu breeder and am very excited about the future breeding plans of the TBA. Though the Aatu shares much of the same ancestry as the original Tam, it will also likely be influenced by two or three other foundation breeds.The Aatu breed will, when it is fully developed, look and behave quite different from the TDR Tamaskan, and should thus be considered an entirely separate breed from the original Tamaskan. Though the word "Tamaskan" is in the Aatu name, the breed standards differ in several ways. I understand that the TBA's use of the word "Tamaskan" is a major source of annoyance, but isn't this a relatively minor offense in the grand scheme of things?

The point I want to make is, if we are talking about two different breeds, do we need to act as rivals? Can we not learn from each other, and even be excited for each other's progress? I for one am always excited to hear about new TDR litters and am happy for those of you lucky enough to receive a pup. I am also very interested to read about changes and developments in the Tam breed. The "black phase tam" thread is particularly engaging. I hope you wonderful TDR members will be excited when the TBA announces its developments. I can promise that many of you will be intrigued by the Aatu's progress within the next few years. Exciting things are happening and I believe the Aatu will develop into a truly magnificent wolf look-alike breed with many similar but also many different physical and behavioral qualities to the original Tam.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by wen » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:34 am

I think that if the Aatu "tamaskan", was only called "aatu", it would be a great thing.
Using the name of a breed in another, different one, cannot be without consequences. It's not a minor offense.

I really think that the only way to have better relationship would be if the Aatu group take its responsabilities and chose a name without mention of "tamakan" (in another place than in the pedigree of some of their dogs).

You cannot spit on a breed and use it's name for your own, it's completly crasy...excepted if you want to fool people who could buy an aatu, thinking it's a real tam.

If their breed has nothing to do with the tamaskan, excepted the origines, then I don't see why the relationship couldn't improve.
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Misaya » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:11 am

I think the point is if you were setting out to produce a 'new and improved' version, you would want to show confidence in your own ability to do so by picking a completely different name. As it stands, it must appear to people that the only reason to keep using the Tamaskan name is to ride on the coat-tails of an already established breed and thereby sell more puppies. I think it is doing the breed a disservice now that there will be ANCD bred in as it may well change the temperament. If they do schuzhund, I would imagine that they must have more aggression (maybe I'm wrong but I think it takes more than just basic prey drive). If this is channelled wrongly it may have an adverse effect. Now, if there are incidents of aggression, the majority of the public wont bother to make the distinction between Aatu and Tamaskan and they will all be tarred with the same brush. It is unfair to the TDR Tamaskan breeders that another group is using the name, but breeding in lines over which the TDR have no control.

I think there may be too much water under the bridge for the TDR/Aatu to build many bridges. However, they could co-exist peaceably but I think it would be up to the Aatu to make the first move by dropping Tamaskan from the name.

Just my opinion.
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Rahne » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:17 am

To be honest i'm not very impressed with the Aatu so far... breeding back-to-back litters, breeding from (very young) dogs with epilepsy in the lines and not fully health tested, repeated matings, etc. They left because they weren't happy with how things were run in the TDR but I don't see what they are doing better??

I must say that I do think Reggie is doing well with the health testing and taking it seriously. I also like the fact that Reggie is focused on her own dogs and breeding and not badmouthing others the whole time, unlike some others..

If they want to go into a different direction then why not drop the Tamaskan name?? That's not so much to ask right ;)
I can promise that many of you will be intrigued by the Aatu's progress within the next few years. Exciting things are happening and I believe the Aatu will develop into a truly magnificent wolf look-alike breed with many similar but also many different physical and behavioral qualities to the original Tam.
I hope you're right, at the moment all I see is a big mess and not a good start of a 'new breed'..

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by blufawn » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:02 pm

Having had many dealings with both Reggie and Kim, I dont think I could ever forgive them for what they have done to me personally and the reputation of the Tamaskan breed.

They were not happy with the way things at the TDR were run, well thats fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the fact that they went behind everyones back, sneaking around gaining information (I know I spent many many hours of my life I can never get back helping them both, answering questions, providing pedigrees, health info and other such things) and the whole time they were planning on leaving and had already been speaking to breeders of Utonagan, Czech Wolfdog and ANCD without our knowledge.

Kim in particular before she left tried to have several people thrown off the committee including Lynn (Blustag), myself and I think I am right in saying John (Tarheel) as well. It was almost as if they tried a mutiny, but it didnt go the way they planned so they left.

They announced their resignation from the club (because they simply couldnt get on with the rest of the committee) to start their own breed. Well of course we were a bit put out and felt betrayed, but that wasnt the last thing they did.

Next they started up the no-wolf-tamaskan website (as well as hate rants on Kims own website), slandering the names of the founder of the orginal Tamaskan and other TDR committee members. They also visited wolf dog and dog forums spreading links to their hate website. THIS is what they did that was so unforgiveable. They could not leave the group quietly, take their dogs and try to go out on their own, something we would not like, but we would not bother them again.

Then of course they have committed several ethical crimes in their breeding practices, most notably breeding two dogs that are carriers of DM, breeding dogs with close epilepsy in their lines, breeding from dogs with untested hips, from terribly young dogs and back to back breedings.
They also still continue to use the Tamaskan name, its like another kick in the teeth to everything the TDR stands for.

I do not see any hate info on the TDR website, nor do those most affected by the no-wolf-fable websites post slander about the Aatu breed on their personal websites, we also havent started a Aatu-health-test-fable.com website, which we easily could have done.
I truly believe the TDR is superior to the TBA, if only because the people running it have higher standards of behaviour, better ethics and because it is run by professional, educated people with over 60 years experience in dogs, not just in breeding or working with rare breeds, but also showing, working (which includes schuzhund, although we call it working trials) , racing and judging, all to a championship level.

Of course its up to everyone to make their own minds up, but I know if it was me I would want to go with the group with the highest standards for health, the least amount of bitchiness and of course those with the most experience (such as the founders) and the TDR have ALL of those things, the TBA has nothing to offer but a small handful of dogs all of whom have health issues themselves or in their lines....... and a bunch of loud mouthed, hate spreading, back stabbing idiots. ok, rant over.
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by TerriHolt » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:01 pm

martinbernstein wrote:I am saddened by all the negative comments about Aatu/TBA folks on this forum and I feel the need to add some Aatu positivity to the forum.

The TDR/TBA relationship is clearly a loaded and complicated one. I make no claim to know all the details or all parties involved, but I have had the pleasure of speaking with both Aatu and TDR Tamaskan owners and breeders. I am the owner of a TBA registered Tam and am a member of the TBA, but I still love getting to know and sharing info and advice with TDR dog owners.

I've read far too many negative comments about Aatu and TBA members, many of which have little to no truth to them, some of which are highly speculative, and others which are downright malicious.

The TBA is made up of several individuals, each with their own personal styles, ethics and values. I hope that folks on this forum recognize this and that they consider this when reading about Aatu in the "Scams" section and other threads with unflattering content. I plan to become an Aatu breeder and am very excited about the future breeding plans of the TBA. Though the Aatu shares much of the same ancestry as the original Tam, it will also likely be influenced by two or three other foundation breeds.The Aatu breed will, when it is fully developed, look and behave quite different from the TDR Tamaskan, and should thus be considered an entirely separate breed from the original Tamaskan. Though the word "Tamaskan" is in the Aatu name, the breed standards differ in several ways. I understand that the TBA's use of the word "Tamaskan" is a major source of annoyance, but isn't this a relatively minor offense in the grand scheme of things?

The point I want to make is, if we are talking about two different breeds, do we need to act as rivals? Can we not learn from each other, and even be excited for each other's progress? I for one am always excited to hear about new TDR litters and am happy for those of you lucky enough to receive a pup. I am also very interested to read about changes and developments in the Tam breed. The "black phase tam" thread is particularly engaging. I hope you wonderful TDR members will be excited when the TBA announces its developments. I can promise that many of you will be intrigued by the Aatu's progress within the next few years. Exciting things are happening and I believe the Aatu will develop into a truly magnificent wolf look-alike breed with many similar but also many different physical and behavioral qualities to the original Tam.
well, since someone has mentioned it...

i don't think you added any Aatu positivity to the forum.... just stated the fact that it is 2 seperate breeds and the 2nd breed is still clinging to the tam name... maybe it would work better if they dropped the tam name. if a load of pups turn out sick and they say they are tamaskans it will look so bad for the TDR who have nothing at all to do with them. just like RPK... his bad breeding looks bad for the tams unless a person can actually be bothered to look thru all the dif breeds with the same name... there are not 3 seperate types of golden labs but with the same name huh? because most breeders are confident enough to put their own name to it and not go off the back of someone elses hard work and well earned name... any thing bad happend, EVERYONE will get tared and feathered with the same brush. that is what i don't think is fair... risking the rep of the innocent. are they just too lazy to think of a name or is that the intention?

i'm happy that you are happy with them but i just hope that you have better breeding stands. a few dogs will suffer a few years down the line with devastated humans. i have gone back over the posted stuff and all the negativity that is there, they brought on them selves with poor breeding standards...

if they were to seperate breeds with seperate names then they may be able to co exsist but the fact of all the false websites and all the tdr bashing in their website (i saw all that before finding the TDR, it almost put me off tams... with that and RPK) still remains. the TDR have done nothing like that so why did they have to?

they are too childish to be taken seriously...
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Sugalba » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:40 pm

At the end of the day they have made up lies about their 'competition' to promote their own breed. They did the same as RPK with his false newspapers and his site they are no better than him.
I dont know why anyone would want to work with them they are not to be trusted. If you were a breeders of Aatu and they decided they dont like you God help you and your dogs because you may end up with a website of your own, just like the TDR people.
Like Terri says the TDR only dont want to be associated because they feel that the Aatu will give the real Tamaskan a bad name and I agree. In a few years time when the epilepsy and monorchism comes back to haunt them it will be the REAL Tamaskan that suffer too but they dont care about that.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Blustag » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:35 pm

martinbernstein ... I wish you well with your dog and your forthcoming trek across USA....BUT... I just want to point out to you that you have NO knowledge at all of what took place a few years ago between Reggie and Kim and the TDR. I am 500% convinced that IF you were to see all the mails that these two have sent to both Jenny and myself and some other members of the TDR you would have an entirely DIFFERENT opinion of them. You would not touch them with a barge pole. I have never met more vicious, nasty, disgusting people in my life especially Kim. One only has to read through her website to see just what kind of a person she is. She even went so far as to attack my grandson For God's Sake and he is just a child. I wont go on here as enough has been said above. I for one certainly wont be interested in what they do for the future but one thing is for sure. They only kept the name Tamaskan so that they could sell their puppies. With their breeding practices they are no better than Right Puppy Kennels.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Taz » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:32 pm

I'd say as an outsider looking in, that there is no way the TBA and TDR are ever going to be friends.

I find it absolutely non-sencicle that a group that claims they want to start their own breed, would continue to use another breeds name, whilst also slagging that breed off.

I also find it non-sencicle that a group who constantly go on about health, would do some of the things they have.

There's also the matter of them claiming the use of csvs etc in tamaskans, and how bad that was, but yet, they tried to use csvs themselves.

In short, their obvious hypocrisy isn't something I'd want any association with.

But as I say, I'm an outsider here, so what does it matter what I think.
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by TerriHolt » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:00 pm

Taz wrote:

But as I say, I'm an outsider here, so what does it matter what I think.
it matters because outsiders need to see them for what they are which goes to show some of us do. i'm sorry you got such a rsponse martin but you really didn't point out any good bits to go on besides the future... what future do the poor DM pups have to look forward to?

may i ask why you chose to breed with their Aatu's and not the TDR? their must have been something good to go on for you to have made your mind up (that everyone else fails to see)? if the TDR allowed it, would you consider? or is it more the fact the TDR will only allow Tam to Tam breeding? i'm not been mean or anything, i was just curious and words fail me right now...
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Blustag » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:41 pm

Im sorry to put this so bluntly...NO Im not!.... ANYONE with an ounce of intelligence can see these people for what they are... .whats more there is proof!! Look at all the people here on this forum who have seen them for what they are.... NEED I SAY MORE!

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Katlin » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:52 pm

As another outsider looking in I'd say there's not a chance in hell the TDR would ever forgive the TBA. I've seen some of the things the TBA has said and personally talked with Kim (back when I believed the no-wolf tamaskan tale :? :oops: :roll: ) and let's just say hard feelings still exist. The TBA may have some friendly members but from the TINY bits of evidence I've seen I wouldn't forgive them, let alone what Jenny or Lynn or anyone else have had to deal with.
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Tarheel » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:31 pm

Martin,
Are you also saddened by the bile that is on the Takari Tamaskans website? http://www.takari-tamaskans.com/id13.html
I can forgive and forget, but when people act like children with their blatant name calling that never ends, it is hard to forgive.
Kim Monagas has been a major instigator in this rift which started back when she was a member of the NTCA and a TDR Breeder. Kim began bad mouthing and name calling other members and breeders. This is what got her removed from the TDR and NTCA. As Kim writes in her hate blogs that she resigned, well let her believe that. She was warned and given 30 days to remove the hateful content from her site, she refused and a letter of removal was sent to her. She sent the letter back unopened.
Now we introduce the ANCD to the Aatu. What the heck is this? How does this make a Tamaskan bigger, better, healthier, and wolfier? If you mix a Tamaskan and an Alaskan Noble Companion Dog, how come it is called an Aatu Tamaskan? How come it is not an Aatu Companion Dog? The thing with the TBA is they are riding the coat tails of the people they disparage, yet keep the name of the breed they created as part of their breed they are creating. It just doesn't seem right. They spread rumors as how unhealthy the Tamaskan dogs are, how much wolf content, yet they use these same dogs as foundation stock for their Aatu's.

Why does the TBA use the ANCD as an addition to the Aatu stock? Well the TBA looked high and low for CWD, Northern Inuits, Utonagons, etc. No legitimate breeder would use their stock with the TBA stock. In comes the ANCD, a very interesting dog, virtually unheard of and certainly not talked about on the web. In fact, you can hardly find any information publicly on the Internet until just recently. From what I can find, this is a one breeder dog breed, yet people write that this breed has been in the making for 20 years, If this has been a 20 year secret, why all of a sudden is this ANCD breeder, providing breeding stock to the Aatu breeders?
I could really care less about what the TBA mixes with their dogs to create their breed, but leave the Tamaskan name alone and leave the people associated with the Tamaskan breed alone.

Martin,
This forum is an open public forum which anyone can join. The TDR is a Registry and the Registry has clubs associated with it such as the National Tamaskan Club of America (NTCA). You will not find negative comments toward the TBA or its breeders on the TDR or club sites. Any negativity here is coming from individuals, and not from certian breed clubs or the Registry. I seriously doubt that you will find negative comments directed towards the TBA on the TDR breeders sites.
Any time you need more information please feel free to PM me or email me directly. I have known the founders of the TBA for as long as they have had Tamaskans.
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by AngieH » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:10 pm

martinbernstein wrote:I am saddened by all the negative comments about Aatu/TBA folks on this forum and I feel the need to add some Aatu positivity to the forum.
----- edit for space-----
I hope you wonderful TDR members will be excited when the TBA announces its developments. I can promise that many of you will be intrigued by the Aatu's progress within the next few years.
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by WhiteElkDoe » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:06 am

Taz wrote:I'd say as an outsider looking in, that there is no way the TBA and TDR are ever going to be friends.

I find it absolutely non-sencicle that a group that claims they want to start their own breed, would continue to use another breeds name, whilst also slagging that breed off.

I also find it non-sencicle that a group who constantly go on about health, would do some of the things they have.

There's also the matter of them claiming the use of csvs etc in tamaskans, and how bad that was, but yet, they tried to use csvs themselves.

In short, their obvious hypocrisy isn't something I'd want any association with.

But as I say, I'm an outsider here, so what does it matter what I think.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a csvs? None of the online acronym dictionaries have an entry for it. :oops:

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by HiTenshi16 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:13 am

WhiteElkDoe wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but what is a csvs? None of the online acronym dictionaries have an entry for it. :oops:
The csvs is the czechoslovakian wolfdog.
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by jyotin » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:24 am

I don't even know these people but SOMEHOW their viciousness has managed to affect me all the way in Canada. When people ask me what kind of dog Odin was or what type of dog I am now getting, I've had to endlessly defend the breed as their minds have already been filled with the poison that these horrible people have spread. Many "dog people" that I have spoken to, when told I am getting a Tamaskan think I am crazy to get a "mutt bred with no standards" all the way from the UK - they think that I am insane...and come to think of it if I truly believed what they believe...I would have thought the same too. Of course there are many people who changed their mindset once I was able to explain RPK and Aatu to them, but I feel that we as REAL Tamaskan owners will always face some type of prejudice against our choice in dogs as long as RPK and Aatu continue their hate rampage. It's so sad because a breed that is SO beautiful, so well tempered, and so carefully bred by honest and responsible people, has suffered so much against its name and it worries me how difficult it will be to rid the Tamaskan breed of any association with RPK and Aatu.

I've experience nothing but KINDNESS and RESPECT by so many members of the TDR, I have not one bad thing to say about any of them...which I believe is nothing close to what many people have experienced with these Tamaskan spin-off breeders. I just don't understand how people can be around dogs all of the time and yet still somehow be able to abuse them by knowingly bringing puppies with serious health risks into this world. It makes me so sad.
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by TerriHolt » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:49 am

jyotin wrote:but I feel that we as REAL Tamaskan owners will always face some type of prejudice against our choice in dogs as long as RPK and Aatu continue their hate rampage. It's so sad because a breed that is SO beautiful, so well tempered, and so carefully bred by honest and responsible people, has suffered so much against its name and it worries me how difficult it will be to rid the Tamaskan breed of any association with RPK and Aatu.

I've experience nothing but KINDNESS and RESPECT by so many members of the TDR, I have not one bad thing to say about any of them...which I believe is nothing close to what many people have experienced with these Tamaskan spin-off breeders. I just don't understand how people can be around dogs all of the time and yet still somehow be able to abuse them by knowingly bringing puppies with serious health risks into this world. It makes me so sad.
couldn't have been said any better 8-)

in the uk, i still get
"it's a husky isn't it..." (not asking, telling)
"no, he's a tamaskan"
"... huh?..."
then into long explanation, including(but not into detail) that there are fake wannabe's... so it's not too bad hear. but i fear that if they google, they will be conned into the fakes (british are lazy and ignorant there for lack of effort will go into looking to buy one) because most people won't want to wait and don't understand the concept of suply and demand (which is where over breeding, mutts and full rescue's shows up). which got me thinking... i could create 'business' cards with lynn's e-mail address on and this website so i can keep it with sam's treat bag for when we come into contact with people who are genuinly interested... *rushes off to do example*

Edit:

Image

obviously smaller and more rectangle (it was a 2 min rush job)... and i left your e-mail address off lynn, didn't know if you wanted it on display or not... could add all breeders websites on... location etc...

i know it's kinda on a par with RPK's "buy it now button" but giving people all the info on a silver plate will by pass them putting up the tam truth, RPK and Aatu's hit rating up... all the info is readly available hear and on breeder websites... just a thought :oops: , i have those sometimes :D (kinda got off topic too but it kinda follows on...).
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by blufawn » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:58 am

We also take (homemade) business cards out with us sometimes when we are taking the dogs to events (agricultural shows or sometimes car boots) That way we can try to hand them a card and keep walking, otherwise we end up taking forever to get round because people stop to ask us questions. Ive pretty much banned mum from taking Yogi (Kenai) anywhere now because he is the worst (or best) for drawing a crowd.

@ swake
Thats the RPK one, the Aatu have their own, quite similar on its slander.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by JulieSmith » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:38 am

Great idea for the cards, I have thought the same thing. What about putting on the forum, club and TDR web addresses that would give them enough to start with. I think I will have to do that.

Most people I meet have never heard of Tamaskan good or bad, I usually get asked is she GSD or husky, occasionally NI and once Utongan as there is one round here, but never met them.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by AZDehlin » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:49 pm

blufawn wrote:We also take (homemade) business cards out with us sometimes when we are taking the dogs to events (agricultural shows or sometimes car boots) That way we can try to hand them a card and keep walking, otherwise we end up taking forever to get round because people stop to ask us questions. Ive pretty much banned mum from taking Yogi (Kenai) anywhere now because he is the worst (or best) for drawing a crowd.

@ swake
Thats the RPK one, the Aatu have their own, quite similar on its slander.
Haha, it's his smashing good looks...

Business cards are a good idea so your not tied up all day

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by martinbernstein » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:34 pm

Oh well. Guess that attempt back fired... This can of worms was not what I was hoping to open. I'm not prepared to defend the TBA against all of the comments in this thread. Many comments are clearly regurgitations of information from single-source online literature. So I'm going to leave it be. But again, I hope that both those who have and those who have not been directly affected by soured relations with certain TBA members will be open to those of us new to the TBA who have recently joined and have no history with the TDR. I only have good intentions for both the dogs, the breed and those who choose to own an Aatu, and as a dog lover and owner, and as an Aatu breeder I will strive to reach the highest ethical standards.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by blufawn » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:07 pm

I do not have anything against the Aatu dogs or any new breeders, its not their fault that the people that run the TBA are, well, less than professional. It does worry me that even knowing that Takari bred with a dog whose grandmother died from epilepsy (when the TDR removed the lines) and Conchur breed from a monorchid (when the TDR does not allow this...ie Kenai) and these are the foundation dogs of the breed, coupled with the fact that these people openly and viciously attacked TDR members on their no-wolf-fable website, forums and their own websites, even insinuating that Lynn kills puppies that dont fit the breed standard, just because they have never seen a piebald. They have lied, cheated and falsified emails and documentation just to slander the original breed for their own gain. This sort of information is not regurgitations of information from single-source online literature but actual facts, backed up with proof seen on their own websites.
I just dont understand how anyone would want to work with people with personalities like that. They have lost the respect of not only the TDR and Tamaskan owners, but the majority of the wolfdog and wolf look a like world as well.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
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And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by JulieSmith » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:40 am

As someone new to the breed and not knowing all the facts behind the fallouts this is how I see it.

First there was the Northern Inuits, a falling out occurred and some breeders broke away and started the Utonagans, again a falling out occurred and the Tamaskan was created. If when the breeders who fell out with the TDR had just called their dogs Aatu and moved on I do not think anyone in the TDR would be bothered with what they were up to or saying. If you look in the Scams and warning section it is mainly concerned with anything with Tamaskan there is only one thread on a none Tamaskan name and that is more curiosity.

The only reason that the Aatu Tamaskans are talked about on this forum is because they are still called Tamaskan and their image will have an impact on the image of all Tamaskan,s Aatu or not. Since they are different dogs now, different breed standard and different out crosses it makes sense to me to have different names, just like the breeders that broke away from the NI and then Uts, they did not keep the original name in the new name or expect the ones left behind to change their name.

The most important thing to me for any breed is that the parent dogs are looked after correctly and their health and that of the puppies health is the top priority. There are as many opinions of how a wolf dog should look and act as there are people so there is room for all the different looks and temperaments, just as long as they all have different names so people can make their choices without being confused.

I think that there are some members of the TBA that are their own worst enemies, I side with the TDR because of what the Aatu have put on their web sites and the no wolf fable site. I came across it when researching Tamaskans before I got mine and it put me off the Aatu breeders. I tried to work out why they would put such stuff up on their home page, was it a case of attack is the best form of defence, but I could see no attack, or is it a case of those who shout the loudest often have something to hide and they are trying to deflect peoples attention away from them. Whatever their reason, it made me distrust them, and that was before I read anything on here.

Just my thought on the situation.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Sugalba » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:36 am

I think you will see many people not wanting to get involved in this discussion because the people on this forum are non aggressive. They want to leave the bitching to the bitches so to speak.
In your first post you write
I've read far too many negative comments about Aatu and TBA members, many of which have little to no truth to them, some of which are highly speculative, and others which are downright malicious.
I have looked for these comments but I have not found them.
The TDR and the admins of this forum have tried their hardest to make sure that talk about the Aatu breed is kept factual and not just opinion. When you compare what is written here to what is written on the no-wolf-fable website and kims own page you will see some HUGE differences mostly that what is written on their site is guess work and rumor what is written here is mainly defense against what they write rather than rumors about what they are doing. I dont know if you think that the Aatu is the victim and the TDR are the attackers if you do then you could not be more wrong. It is a shame you have not been here from the beginning because then you would know more. My advice would be not to listen to just what they are telling you which I have no doubt are many very long emails as is Reggies style but ask others here on the forum who have been here from the very start and then wonder why only 2 owners and a disgraced ex breeder broke away and formed the TBA and why the rest stayed?

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Blustag » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:12 pm

Sorry Martin I just dont understand your logic!!!!! As stated above 'we' the founders of the Tamaskan started in NI and as there. was much back stabbing going on in that breed and 'some' breeders were introducing crossbreeds among others into their bloodlines... and didnt wish to know ...at that time... about health testing. 'we' the founders of the Tamaskan decided to break away and start up from scratch.... 'we' the founders in order to do this correctly changed the name of the NI to Utonagan. This was MY personal idea by the way regardless of what you may read elsewhere. Having changed the name to disassocate we then set up a club. BUT.... as you will read in the history of the Tamaskan.... things didnt work as planned and quite a number of the Utonagan breeders were not prepared to be choosy about what they mated together OR about getting all their dogs health tested i.e. hips etc...and we then found out that a number of pedigrees had been faked and so on.... SO what did we do....'we' the founders of the Tamaskan decided this was no way to move forward but in order to create the dog we were heading towards we had to take another strong action and that was to select the very best of what we had and move on. This we did by moving to Finland and introducing the very best ....see the History.... What did we do then.... WE CHANGED THE NAME again for the last time. We have started from scratch and look where we are now. What we DIDNT do was to continue with the name either NI or Ute and ride on their coat tails to sell puppies. We wanted NOTHING to do with them or their dogs for reasons we all know about.

What the Aatu people have done is to breed from the only dogs that they had i.e. Reggie has a monorchid and Kim a bitch with epilepsy in her bloodlines. They also breed back to back... this means every 6 months and they say the reason for that is that it is 'good' for the bitch.... DO ME A FAVOUR!!!!!
They were both thrown out of the TDR because of their continued badmouthing other breeders amongst a whole load of other reasons. What did they do... They continued their ways still breeding from unhealthy dogs and all the things that they have accused the TDR breeders of doing they are now doing!!!! AND kept the name of Tamaskan which was thought up by Jenny and myself a few years back. WHY!!!!!! Because if they hadnt they wouldnt sell their puppies. Also not to mention all the vicious attacking going on from their websites, lies and slander and so on and so on and so on.

YES we are worried that the reputation that they are getting is going to 'spoil' the reputation that we as registered breeders with the TDR have worked long and hard to get.

Do you really want to be a part of that community!!! For as long as they include Tamaskan in their breed name (sorry its not a breed) we will hound them. IF you want to do them any good at all I strongly suggest that you work towards them dropping OUR breed name once and for all!!!! at the end of the day it WILL NOT benefit them!

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by wolfwannabe » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:59 pm

Blustag wrote: they should just call them Aatu then and drop the Tamaskan off altogether if they want a peaceful life but then they wont do that if our name sells 'their' crossbreed puppies!!
I agree.
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Glennz » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:31 pm

Blustag wrote:Well whatever..... they should just call them Aatu then and drop the Tamaskan off altogether if they want a peaceful life but then they wont do that if our name sells 'their' crossbreed puppies!!
I agree.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:25 am

you have yes, and i know you always will be (unless you have anymore bright ideas along the lines of "you should build bridges with the people who have tried, and failed to ruin your breed countless times and drag the neame thru mud).

but you can't surely expect the same when it comes to the Aatu? who have low breeding standards and who steal other breed names form those who worked hard for it??? it would be un fair on the breeders who have been effected by their filth, vicious behavior, vile tongue not to mention all the lies and slander to expect that of them. i think i would be very defensive if i was any of them...
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There’s a battle between two wolves inside us all.
One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by jmarino82 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:28 pm

I think it boils down to this; Kim and Reggie were extremely abusive to a great many of us-myself included, lied to us and about us(Us being TDR people, Kim has personally made a great many attacks about not just people personally but their dogs on her own site-and in emails to potential buyers, harassed people on a dog forum, created false information to suit her breeding agenda, and engaged in breeding practices that are questionable at best.

You didn't add any positivity to our forum, just made us all remember how we were abused, lied about and attacked by Kim mostly(at least me personally) and by Reggie.

The fact is that Tamaskan should be dropped from the Aatu name. It's fairly obvious simply looking at Kim's first litter(which produced the piebald) that she's not breeding Tamaskan and should drop it from her moniker. Kim can claim all she want that she's not the first to breed a piebald, but she is-which makes a great many of us question the veracity of her claim that both parents were pure bred Tamaskan, and that they were both of an age to be bred. Personally I think she should look more closely at the father but that's mho. Tamaskan litters are always much larger as well. Nothing about her first foray into breeding was up to breed standard. It seems as though she's trying to ride off of the popularity that's growing for the Tamaskan. A breed that Lynn created and she's been attacked by Kim and Reggie because she dared to own a dog(which she has never denied owning) and TBA insists was used in breeding-when she has no tangible proof. There's literally several years of things you seem to be ignorant of.

If you want to be clear, any dogs bred by the Aatu people shouldn't be called Tamaskan because they aren't. Not with Kim's(a novice breeder at best) randomly choosing "wolfy" looking dogs and hybrids to add to her bastardization of Lynn's creation. They should be 2 separate breeds with all the outcrosses that are coming or already in the mix. It shouldn't even be a breed for several generations until the outcrosses stop and you're breeding from "pure bred" parents for several generations.

You really don't know the back story with these people and the split from the TDR. While I would welcome you to stay and learn that we are a very nice group of people here, I suggest you don't judge things you don't know about it.

You really want peace? Get those of us who were attacked and abused by the Aatu founders an apology for how we were treated and then we can talk peace.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by jmarino82 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:02 pm

Martin,
I do have a few serious questions for you. Your good intentions aside, who mentors new breeders in the Aatu? What standards does one have to meet to be a breeder besides buying two dogs? What standards do these breeders have for the health of the dogs? Do they skip heat cycles between matings? Have a minimum age for breeding or a maximum? What experience do your mentors have? What criteria does a dog have to meet to be considered breeding stock? Do you have rules about eliminating dogs from the breeding pool that have close ties to dogs with monocridism, epilepsy, or other genetic problems? What other standards do you have? Do you consider the offspring or an outcross and an Aatu to be a purebred aatu-or at one generation are they considered to be a purebred aatu? How can you say a dog is a purebred aatu when there are not multiple generations of Aatu that are only bred to aatu? How can you breed aatu knowing they are going to be "changing" the breed with these outcrosses and the dogs one breeder is breeding from have the potential to be dramatically different then the dogs others are using(for example say you have two dogs that are Aatu, the another breeder has an Aatu and another breed they are adding in-are both of those litters Aatu How is that possible?!!? How is that a breed and not just a mutt? What criteria or testing are the outcrosses subject to?

I think a lot of us feel that until the outcrosses have stopped being an added and you've bred for several generations from "pure breds" it's just a mutt. I'm sorry to say that, but it's true. You don't breed a lab with a bull dog and call that first litter a new breed, that's just not how it works .

I really do look forward to your answers, as any responsible, knowledgeable breeder would have no trouble answering them and should be prepared to answer them from people interested in your breed.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by blufawn » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:36 am

I dont think that it is fair for us all to be pointing fingers or questioning Martin, its not his fault that he has been taken in by Kim and Reggie and their silver tongues, after all we were all fooled by them in the beginning.
When Reggie first joined I was happy, I thought of her as an experienced breeder and someone that had something to offer the breed. We became good friends, so I thought. I would chat to her almost everyday on MSN, sometimes for hours. Not just about dogs, but normal chit chat as well. Foolishly I trusted her. I confided in her my disappointment in not being able to breed to the male I wanted to for my first litter because I couldnt afford the stud fee. I was only young and just out of a relationship and had little money, so I chose to use my mums male instead. I also told her that I wasnt that interested in breeding, I dont count myself as a breeder because my love is showing and usually the only reason I breed is to keep something to show. I was breeding Tamaskan only to help the breed grow.
It seemed that overnight they left the TDR and their website went live, we didnt have a falling out, and I know now that I did nothing wrong, they were planning this all along. One of the things it said on that website was that I didnt want to be a breeder, that I had no money and that I was breeding to my mums males because I couldnt afford a stud dog and that I was breeding soley for money to pay off my debts.
Of course I was heart broken, I had never said these things to her and it was all taken totally out of context. She was supposed to be my friend and the whole time she was sending my personal emails on to Kim who was disecting them for her sick website.
I was embarrased and ashamed and felt like everyone would see me differently or think me a mini puppy mill, which is EXACTLY how they wanted people to view me and how they wanted people to see the TDR, this is the reason they USED me, because I was secretary and they wanted to discredit all those involved with the running of what they considered to now be a 'rival' breed. When I look back, I was doing nothing wrong, there is no shame in using a free stud dog over an expensive one, I still produced a wonderful litter, there is also no shame in not wanting to be a big breeder, I admire people for producing quality over quantity, which is what I believe I do.
But I need not have worried what others thought of me either. People emailed me to give me their support, they know that I do everything I can for my dogs and for the breed.
After all I have been involved in the Tamaskan since the start (2002) but I didnt buy my first Tamaskan until 2006 and I didnt breed my first litter until 2009 and I have only bred 3 litters, hardly the work of someone breeding for money.
They also falsified my emails, making it look like they had proof I had said the things they wrote and worse, when I didnt write those emails at all.
Now I am not sure why I was so worried, all the people involved with the TDR since Kim & Reggie supported us and condemned their actions, none of our breeders left to join them, Im pretty sure none of them even considered it, they could all see what was going on.

The only question you need to ask yourself is if you believe that the TDR committee and the 17 breeders are lying, that we have been lying all along. Lynn does kill her puppies, we do breed with wolves and that almost all our breeding dogs are Czech, Sarloos and real wolfdogs and that Kim and Reggie are reliable people who only speak the truth about everything. All our dogs will now die of hereditary diseases (which Aatu are immune to) they will all start attacking small children and other dogs because of wolf content and that the Aatu will breed with ANCD and live happily ever after despite the world knowing what they have done to another breed and its people to get to where they are.
OR that the founders of the breed have the best interest of the dogs at heart. That two breeders fell out with the TDR and went off on their own, they spread rumours about the original breed to try to promote their own, they created a website to slander all people who did not side with them and they went on to breed from monorchids, dogs with epilepsy in their lines and bred back to back litters and from dogs as young as 7 months and they searched high and low for fresh breeding dogs, but the majority of the wolfdog and wolf look a like world wouldnt sell to them because of their reputation.

This disagreement stretches beyond the TDR committee member, they emailed breeders, owners and people who dont own or breed but just agreed with the TDR, they sent nasty hate mail to anyone and everyone that didnt share their opinion, as soon as they left the TDR I started to get abusive emails from Kim, and I hadnt done anything at all but try to help them by answering questions and being a good friend, I didnt deserve the abuse I got from Kim, I had done nothing to her.
You obviously share their opinions Martin, but as Allison said, god help you if you ever disagree, you may end up with your own website. A word of advice, never mix business with pleasure, never tell them anything you dont want the whole world to know, they are not your friends and they will smile at you while they stab you in the back.

I do not even like discussing them on this forum, they DO give the Tamaskan a bad name and not because they spread lies about the breed, but because THEY use the name and continue to breed with poor ethics.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
.............................................................
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by TerriHolt » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:17 pm

I don't think anyone was pointing fingers at martin, it was more just expressing (with a passion) why the bridges would not be built or if they were, would fall down again... and maybe come curiosity as to why he want to breed a breed that won't go nowhere (due to use of many, many outcrosses, other breed names, bad breeding ethics under age breeding and breeding dogs with health problems, not due to the breed itself) instead of a tamaskan that could be KC/AKC in but 15-20 years, good breeding ethics, breeders caring about the dogs/bitches/pups... I understand they will have lied to... for lack of better wording right now, 'entrap' him, but even if it was the 'breed' he was interested in, shouldn't the breeding ethics have rang bells for him? He will have very little choice of dogs to pair and breed that will not have health problems so that it's self will be tricky. Unless it is the lower breeding standards and not having to travel to breed that enticed him, not needing to pay money for health testing etc. Lynn said it's not good for the breed for just any dogs to be bred; you have to be willing to travel.

The breed is not a rival breed but more of enemy breeders. there is no logic in breeders trying to down other breeders as they have done and even IF Lynn, Jennie, Debby etc. was willing to build bridges, forgive but not forget... would they stop all the lies, fake websites and harassment? I’m pretty sure not so the TDR would be still playing fair and they would not... I’m not sure how it would be different even if an agreement was made.

it would be wise to not upset them tho martin, only share need-to-know info and don't turn your back on them...
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One is Evil. It’s anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego.
The other is Good. It’s joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness and truth.

The wolf that wins? The one you feed!

~ Cherokee Proverb

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity... I'm not sure about the former.

~ Albert Einstein

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by jmarino82 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:20 am

Hi,
I wasn't trying to be nasty to Martin, I really truly want to know those things I asked. I think any reputable breeder of any breed would welcome questions from someone trying to learn about the dogs. I think he'd welcome the chance to answer these questions and clear up any misconceptions about the Aatu if that is indeed the case. He is the one who said there is a lot of incorrect information here, so I was offering him a chance to clear it up and tells us what is wrong and what is actually the truth. I am actually a little put off that he offered no contrary information on anything. I tried to ask respectfully and still hope that he will give us the "right" information as it were so there will be no more guessing and it'll be out there.

canadatamaskanlover1

Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by canadatamaskanlover1 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:04 pm

Hello from Canada. After following the TDR for three years I've learnt a lot more about the differences between breeding for money and for the purpose of promoting a healthy line. This may seem irrelevant here but I've assisted a former Chihuahua breeder (a relative) as a child and from my knowledge of ethical breeding, the Aatu people have completely violated it all. Sure reputable breeders, regardless of whatever breeds of dogs that they produce, make mistakes and have accidents but it's usually a one out of a million chance of that ever happening. The Aatu and the TDR have no intention of forming a bridge and I can clearly see why. Kim and Reg neither cared about health or the emotional well-being of the digs. Both of them merely befriended the TDR only to gain some informations so that they could leave to create their own versions of our Tamaskans while using the Tamaskan's name for profit. I used to watch my uncle spend huge amounts of time and money for all his chihuahuas and despite out first accident (resulting with a swarm of chihuahua pups, though we knew who the parents were), we NEVER allowed that to ever happen again. The first step of preventing such an outbreak is to prepare ahead of time before the breeding seasons including the adjustments around the house for the future pups to roam happily.

If you look at the way Alba raised their litters, the pups including Tarheel's alpha male Blaze were all confined in a prison (of course the Bannows couldn't have known about that at the time). In the past whenever visiting my relatives, I can recall all of the precautions that they did around the pups, even educating themselves about stimulating the appropriate environment for the dogs and (not counting the first accident) they NEVER allowed the one breeding pair to breed again even when they were in heat because there weren't any future owners for the remaining chihuahuas that were still living in their birth house (all the ones that were adopted by my other relatives all had to go through official health testing and have their licence registered). Also, my relatives had all dogs that showed signs of unwanted traits
(early blindness, non-standard chihuahua phenotypes) fixed in order to prevent their unwanted traits from being spread on to future generatons. Now when I look back at the first Aatu breeders, they purposely bred a 7 month old pup! You DON'T do this! In addition, although reputable breeds do occasionally cross-breed their dogs, they do it to improve their breeds and always acknowledge the lines. For one thing, reputable breeders never through in whatever they want into the gene pool and unlike the Aatu breeders who went behind the TDR's back and tossed in a few Alaskan Noble Companion mutts into their "Aatu Tamaskans". Now I don't know much nor care about what the hell those other mysterious breeds were but whatever the case is, the TBA sure did a good job forging pedigrees and we were too late when we found out about this. Reputable breeders like the TDR work around the clock when preparing for a litter, everything is taken very seriously and we are very picky about the environment that we want the dogs to live in. The Aatu people don't give a damn, they lock their dogs away much like RPK. And then they go off writing that no-wolf fable crap, how are we supposed to forgive them? They went completely out of their ways and now they're expecting people to believe that they are the good breeders when they go breeding mutts carrying epilepsy and so on.

I admit that no dog is perfect, every dog is a carrier of something nasty! But a dog carefully bred by a reputable breeder is very less likely to show signs of unwanted diseases than a dog bred out for profit with no regards for health! I will never agree with bridging the TDR with the Aatu people. They were dismissed from the TDR because of their attitudes! They may have improved on their practices a little but as far as I've seen, the Aatu people are still lying about us and recklessly introducinf mutts into their gene pools while forging pedigrees to make their Aatu Tamaskans look like the real thing! A pied-bald mutt from their first litter is evidence of sneaking behind the TDR's back. You don't just introduce alien dogs, Tamaskan or not, into the gene pool without careful screening.

One more thing, reputable breeders like my uncle was, ALWAYS SCREEN THE NEW OWNERS! Whenever a person comes to us and talks about wanting to purchase one of our future pups, WE GO TO THEIR HOMES AND EVALUATE ON THEIR ENVIRONMENT! Just because my relative's dogs were tiny chihuahua didn't mean that they could just live in any random homes. Every dog needs a safe place where they can live and be cared for by the new owner. We don't just hand the dogs over on the spot and that's why we're aftering RPK at the moment for this! The Aatu people are no different. They're not known to screen the owners or the person's environment. Although they do take some precautions in the end the money seems to matter more than wherever the pup goes. As far as my knowledge goes, when my uncle was a breeder he'd take the dogs back if the owners could no longer care for them. RPK and Aatu don't give a damn about what happens to their dogs!

And that's as far as my rant will go.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by HiTenshi16 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:03 pm

One thing I just want to say, before I got Ulric, I was going to try to get a pup from Kim since she was the closest breeder to me. I saw at that time she was with the TDR but then I think a week after she was not on the list for reccomended breeders. I emailed Tarheel to see if she was still part of the TDR and she was, so I emailed her and had been exchanging emails with her ever since. Even when she was not part if the TDR, I still wanted a pup from her because she was closest to me and I had not spoken with other breeders. After many email exchanges she finally sent me an application, I filled out as much detail as possible and since I figured it would be difficult to travel to our house since we were quite far from each other, I even sent photos of my home, and our local dog park.
What I'm trying to get at is that I was screened. The reason I did not get a pup from her was because her first litter was already reserved and I found out that Liz just had a litter. Liz accepted giving me a pup after looking at my application from Kim and knowing that Kim approved my screening. By that time I learned that having a pup flown over is okay.

I'm not defending them, I'm just saying that they are not the same as RPK. They don't have a "buy now" button on their sites, they are not making fake breeder sites. At least when they made their fable site, they did not pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Booma » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:44 am

I agree with Eveyone saying they should drop the "tamaskan" part of their name. On top of Everything already stated, it's really confusing as a newby to discover this breed and find that there is "two" different kinds.
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by martinbernstein » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:40 am

Some of your concerns are relevant, and I'll let them speak for themselves. However, there are a few things you say here that are untrue, which I'd like to correct.

First of all, Kim (Ta-Kari) resigned from the TBA. From what I understand she will continue to breed their dogs, but not as Aatus.
canadatamaskanlover1 wrote: Now when I look back at the first Aatu breeders, they purposely bred a 7 month old pup! You DON'T do this! In addition, although reputable breeds do occasionally cross-breed their dogs, they do it to improve their breeds and always acknowledge the lines.

You're right. You DON'T do this. I don't think there is any eviedence to substantiate your claim that this was done purposefully. As you say, accidents happen, and accidents are certainly not restricted to the TBA. Accidents have happened to TDR breeders too.
canadatamaskanlover1 wrote: For one thing, reputable breeders never through in whatever they want into the gene pool and unlike the Aatu breeders who went behind the TDR's back and tossed in a few Alaskan Noble Companion mutts into their "Aatu Tamaskans".

This is completely false. No Alaskan Noble Companion Dogs have been bred into the Aatu yet. And certainly not behind anyone's back. The TBA has been open about their desire to use ANCDs outcrosses from the start. Also, as a side note, the ANCD is no more a mutt than tamaskans. They have bred true for many generations, they just have many more color and pattern varieties than tams including liver, black, white, mask among others. Most breeds have several color and pattern varieties, but that doesn't make them mutts.
canadatamaskanlover1 wrote: The Aatu people are still lying about us and recklessly introducinf mutts into their gene pools while forging pedigrees to make their Aatu Tamaskans look like the real thing! A pied-bald mutt from their first litter is evidence of sneaking behind the TDR's back. You don't just introduce alien dogs, Tamaskan or not, into the gene pool without careful screening.

Hmm. Looks like you haven't done as much research as you claim. Do some more research and you'll find that "alien" dogs can be found anywhere. Also, you mention the pied pup from Ka-Tari- I honestly don't know anything about that as I became a TBA member after she left and have never been in touch with her - it is possible that that was the result of an outcross. But no current TBA registered breeder is lying about anything- it is public knowledge that the TBA wishes to introduce new dogs to the Aatu genepool. It even says so on the TBA website: "We will be introducing new breeds to our foundation stock and revising the Aatu Breed Standard accordingly."
canadatamaskanlover1 wrote: One more thing, reputable breeders like my uncle was, ALWAYS SCREEN THE NEW OWNERS! Whenever a person comes to us and talks about wanting to purchase one of our future pups, WE GO TO THEIR HOMES AND EVALUATE ON THEIR ENVIRONMENT! ... We don't just hand the dogs over on the spot and that's why we're aftering RPK at the moment for this! The Aatu people are no different. They're not known to screen the owners or the person's environment. Although they do take some precautions in the end the money seems to matter more than wherever the pup goes.
This is so far from the truth. Where are you getting this information? When I approached Reggie about getting one of her dogs the first response I got from her was an extremely long email that not only told me about her and her dogs, but went to great lengths to explain that these dogs are not for everybody as they are active and large.
She also had me fill out a very long application form, AND asked for three references whom she could contact to make sure I was good people. She contacted all three, and only then did she decide to proceed. THEN, she asked me whether I'd want to be on a waiting list for a full price puppy, or whether I'd be interested in adopting a five month old who had been returned by the first owner who unexpectedly met financial difficulties. She only asked that I pay what she had spent on feeding and training her, and vet bills. I took Froya and got a vaccinated, fully trained and healthy dog for next to nothing. So your claim that "the Aatu people" don't care who their pups go to, and that they breed only for money is absurd.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by sky » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:28 am

All of Kim's litters that were registered with the TBA were out if TDR registered Tamaskans. To date the TBA has not used a single outcross. The piebald gene traces back to the Utes that were used as foundation dogs in the creation of the Tamaskan. Several of the TDR founding breeders can confirm this. And as Martin stated accidents occasionally happen even in the TDR world and screening is done with all the TBA breeders.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Katlin » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:52 am

Some very interesting posts here. Martin, you've cleared up a fair amount for me :)

I think we can agree that accidents happen in every breed, no matter how careful you are something can happen. A door can be left open and suddenly you've got a pregnant female. I'm interested to hear that Kim and Alba are no longer part of the TBA. Can anyone shed light as to why this is? It seems the TBA is being quite careful with the breed they are making...although I don't agree with the Tamaskan suffix I do think that some of these members are being accused of things that are completely stereotypical and not completely true or not even close to true.

We must remember that before making statements as facts, we must make sure these statements are true. I think the TBA is being very clear that they will be introducing new bloodlines.
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by martinbernstein » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:24 am

Canadatamaskanlover1, it seems like you have a habit of posting false information: http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic ... 249#p21249

I don't know what your agenda is, but you're not doing anyone any favors by sharing your less than insightful misinterpretations.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by wicca1 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:06 am

i'm not getting into the TDR/ Aatu argument just to say i got my girl Lenka from liz at Alba, she was a year old. i cant speak about the way Liz kept her dogs before i visited her premises or how she treated her dogs, but when i visited her dogs seemed very well looked after and much loved, i have not had any problems with Lenka and have been very happy to have her.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Valravn » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:11 am

I just want to say I have no problem with Aatus or the people who own them.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by TerriHolt » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:20 am

Valravn wrote:I just want to say I have no problem with Aatus or the people who own them.
i also have no problem with RPK's and the people who own them... it's not the dog fault the breeders an imbecile :lol: (unless you ment RPK people then i retract that :oops: ).

i do think that unless facts are posted, SOMEONE should stop posting things. people get directed hear for facts and if they wanted lies and non truths then they could have gone to any of the fiction sites out there but this should not become one of them. it would end up been in the same league as the rest of them...
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Booma » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:24 am

TerriHolt wrote:
Valravn wrote:I just want to say I have no problem with Aatus or the people who own them.
i also have no problem with RPK's and the people who own them... it's not the dog fault the breeders an imbecile :lol: (unless you ment RPK people then i retract that :oops: ).

i do think that unless facts are posted, SOMEONE should stop posting things. people get directed hear for facts and if they wanted lies and non truths then they could have gone to any of the fiction sites out there but this should not become one of them. it would end up been in the same league as the rest of them...

Agree :)
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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by JulieSmith » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:10 pm

TerriHolt wrote:
Valravn wrote:I just want to say I have no problem with Aatus or the people who own them.
i also have no problem with RPK's and the people who own them... it's not the dog fault the breeders an imbecile :lol: (unless you ment RPK people then i retract that :oops: ).

i do think that unless facts are posted, SOMEONE should stop posting things. people get directed hear for facts and if they wanted lies and non truths then they could have gone to any of the fiction sites out there but this should not become one of them. it would end up been in the same league as the rest of them...
Agreed also. It is one of the things I love about this forum that although there is a lot of passion for the Tamaskan breed most people on here try to stick to the facts and that is how it should be. I have to say that it was good to see that people on this forum, who will criticise the Aatu breeders if they get it wrong, where just as quick to defend them when required.

My suggestion to the person who felt like a rant, type it out then save it for 24 hours (or more) re read what you have written and if you still feel the same then post, my guess is most times you will change your mind about a lot of what you wrote once you calm down. I have been known to do that myself and its amazing how often I don't bother posting it, or rewrite parts of it.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Blustag » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:52 pm

martinbernstein wrote:Canadatamaskanlover1, it seems like you have a habit of posting false information: http://www.tamaskan-forum.com/viewtopic ... 249#p21249

I don't know what your agenda is, but you're not doing anyone any favors by sharing your less than insightful misinterpretations.
I just checked out this link and it is dated April and I dont seem to be able
to find any other post by this person since?

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by Blustag » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:57 pm

Regarding the Aatu breeders. Yes I have a problem with them as they
are using our 'genuine' Tamaskan to make money for themselves. There is
plenty about them here on this forum for people to make up their own minds.

Perfect example is here on the forum about a 16 wk old Tamaskan puppy advertised as a Tamaskan by her breeder (Alba) when in fact it is a Tamaskan crossed with a Northern Inuit looking for a new home. Alba is an Aatu Breeder! The puppy owner thought she was buying a pure Tamaskan.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by jmarino82 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:19 pm

Martin,
When you can I'd really appreciate it if you'd address my previously put forth questions.
Thank you Kindly.

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Re: Aatu & TDR. Building bridges...

Post by wicca1 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:12 pm

i agree the Aatu should drop Tamaskan from their name and i dont condone selling puppies as pure Tamaskan if they are not, i was just saying i didnt see alba dogs kept in bad conditions when i was there.

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