Curly Tails?

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Curly Tails?

Post by WhiteElkDoe » Thu May 05, 2011 10:46 pm

I know the breed standard is to have a straight tail. For lack of a better way to say it, how straight is straight? My girls (Rhea and Sophie) seem to hold theirs with a slight curl (so their tail makes about a quarter of a circle) when they're excited, but straight otherwise. Is that still considered correct? What's the cutoff?

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Re: Tails

Post by blufawn » Fri May 06, 2011 9:16 am

Well tails are not 'super' important at the moment, but I certaintly would not breed from any dog whose tail touched their back in any way.
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Re: Tails

Post by Blustag » Fri May 06, 2011 2:32 pm

You could check out our pictorial standard on our website. As we have husky in our background we will get curly tails from time to time. Straight means straight as with a German Shepherd for instance when walking. When alert Tamaskan tend to carry their tails in what is known as a 'sickle curve' which is also the correct tail carriage for a Siberian Husky. A lot of huskies have the wrong type of tail like a Malamute so do be aware of this. When at rest the tail should hang down

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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Mooneye » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:04 pm

I've seen puppies that have curled tails and, as adults, their tails straightened out. At around what age does this happen?
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Gaby » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:29 am

Do you have an example in pictures? It is more common that young dogs carry their tails a bit more upright and when they are around 3 to 4 months they get leggier and the tails get longer, they start to hang more and straighten out. But they have never been curly in the first place in my opinion. ;) But maybe you mean something else.

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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Hawthorne » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:13 pm

There is a way to check for tail carriage in 8 week old puppies. It has to do with the croup angle. However, as breeders, we should all be taking notes as to how these items of interest, such as tail curl or straightness, appear at the 8 week mark, and how they develop into adults. That way we can begin to develop an eye for what to look for in 8 week old pups and make better predictions.
Pat Hastings details this in "Puppy Puzzle" - both the book and the DVD.
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:49 pm

Ulric's tail was straight when I got him at 9 weeks old, it was I think around 6 months that it started to curl? It is not as curly as Zelda's, but it is not straight either.
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Hawthorne » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:35 pm

Is Ulric's croup fairly flat?
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:52 pm

Edit: Thought a side by side picture would help. The red line is the croup angle, the green line is the back. So a croup being more flat, leads to curlier tails, which is how Zelda's tail is. Ulric's croup has more of an angle, and even though his tail does curl, it is not as bad as Zelda's.
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Tiantai » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:21 am

If only I could see the whole tail on Ulric's shot.
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:19 am

Tiantai wrote:If only I could see the whole tail on Ulric's shot.
During this shot, his tail was straight and held in line with his back, but in this photo I was only focused on their croups.
When he holds his tail erect, it will arch over his back, kind of like a "C" shape. I will try to take a photo of this, and Zelda's for comparison.

Anyone with a straight tailed Tamaskan willing to take a photo of the croup and tail positions for reference/comparison?
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Hawthorne » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:05 pm

Just to be clear, though: too steep a croup is a bad thing, too--so don't just aim for more angulation. With a croup that is too steap, the dog will have trouble following through (drive) in the rear. It's all physics :)
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by eyembrad » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:50 pm

What outcrosses would be beneficial to help "breed out" the curly tails found in a lot of our excited Tams? I know that is not something we are looking to breed out just yet, especially since several of the recent outcross studs (Arrow and Ninja) are Husky which is definitely not helping to straighten out any tails.

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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Hawthorne » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:39 am

It is really difficult to determine tail carriage in puppies. It is probably based on tendons and nothing more.

Just my opinion, but health, temperament and structure are more important than tail carriage, coat color, ear size, and coat curliness.

I've asked this question on other dog forums and people really don't know how to predict tail carriage based on young pups. It's a mystery!

One good thing is Arrow is the only one of his sibs or parents who has a curly tail. And he doesn't curl it all the time--just sometimes.
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by eyembrad » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:01 am

But what breed would we want as an outcross that could help "straighten" the tail in future generations?

I know our curly tails are way down on the list of things to correct, I'm just curious how would we go about correcting this in future generations.

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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by balto13 » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:16 am

eyembrad wrote:But what breed would we want as an outcross that could help "straighten" the tail in future generations?

I know our curly tails are way down on the list of things to correct, I'm just curious how would we go about correcting this in future generations.

I think it's okay to talk about other "minor" things, the more we learn the more we learn and I don't think talking about tails, or color is synonymous to not talking about health - so long as people don't discard one for the other :) I was curious about this too and asked Karsten at Munsterland about it. He said what he does is pays attention to puppy tails while they eat, through out the 8 weeks they have them. He didn't say this was full proof or anything, but it was interesting non the less. I think some shepherds could bring in straight tails, maybe Ute, NI? I haven't paid much attention to their tails personally. Their stop is pretty steep, well some of them. Some aren't and are pretty gorgeous.

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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Booma » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:09 am

I think it also depends on individual dogs. Some people's tams might have a very curly tail, and a gsd sickle tail would be an improvement - not so much for a Tam who already has a sickle tail.
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Vajente » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:12 am

good question. I don't think there are a lot off breeds with perfectly straight tails
shepherds mostly have sickle tails which is better than a lot off Tams have but still not straight

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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Hawthorne » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:18 pm

balto13 wrote:I was curious about this too and asked Karsten at Munsterland about it. He said what he does is pays attention to puppy tails while they eat, through out the 8 weeks they have them. He didn't say this was full proof or anything, but it was interesting non the less. I think some shepherds could bring in straight tails, maybe Ute, NI? I haven't paid much attention to their tails personally. Their stop is pretty steep, well some of them. Some aren't and are pretty gorgeous.
Oh, that's interesting about looking at tails while they eat. Hmm…now I'll have to look at my current litter! :D

I think that maybe the concern with Ute and NI would be health… Though I haven't researched their lines myself. I have seen show huskies with perfectly straight tails. And when they are in motion they carry them straight out from their bodies (which would be the most wolf like tail we could ever hope for.) Tails are tough but if we keep the conversation going maybe we'll find someone who will know an answer on how to assess tail carriage in puppies!
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Katlin » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:05 pm

Interesting, Wylie's tail is dead straight when he eats, at rest, and lounging. But when he's alert it curls up and almost touches his back and when he plays it forms kind of a sideways sickle...we call it his "Question mark tail".
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by eyembrad » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:19 pm

From the TDR Wesbite - Breed Standard: http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/breed-info/ ... andard.php
Tail:
At rest the tail is carried downward, but when the dog is excited or in motion, it is carried higher. The tail, should not be carried curled over the back. Coarse thick hair but not feathered.
Can someone provide pictures of the highest it is considered acceptable for an excited or in motion Tam to carry their tail? What about a pic of a dog which is carried over the back (a faulty tail)?

I am trying to assess Sawyer's excited tail, which does curl up when excited, but not sure if it is too much up. He is only 5 months, so maybe it is too early to assess...but maybe not? Just curious what to look for.

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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by HiTenshi16 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:11 pm

eyembrad wrote:From the TDR Wesbite - Breed Standard: http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/breed-info/ ... andard.php
Tail:
At rest the tail is carried downward, but when the dog is excited or in motion, it is carried higher. The tail, should not be carried curled over the back. Coarse thick hair but not feathered.
Can someone provide pictures of the highest it is considered acceptable for an excited or in motion Tam to carry their tail? What about a pic of a dog which is carried over the back (a faulty tail)?
image.jpg
Not the best of photos, but here is Chrono (front pup) who carries his tail straight, then Ulric (middle) who carries his much like Wylie, pretty much sickle shaped most times unless he is really excited which then it almost touches his back, then Zelda (back) who has a really bad tail, when excited is always curled like a "C" and touches her back.
image.jpg
At rest their tails are straight.
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Katlin » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:28 am

Here are pictures of Wylie's tail types:

Swimming tail (high and straight...why he only does this when he swims, I have no idea)
swimming.jpg
Relaxed tail (low and straight with a slight "kink")
relaxed.jpg
Sickle tail (high or low, curved about 170 degrees in a C shape AKA a sickle)
sickle.jpg
Excited tail (High and curved, almost touching his back)
excited.jpg
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by balto13 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:34 am

Katlin wrote:Interesting, Wylie's tail is dead straight when he eats, at rest, and lounging. But when he's alert it curls up and almost touches his back and when he plays it forms kind of a sideways sickle...we call it his "Question mark tail".
there is a method and reasoning to it, I am just not doing it justice and they aren't on the forum much to explain :lol:

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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by eyembrad » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:08 am

So an "acceptable" or "breed standard" excited tail might be equivalent to Wylie's "swimming tail" or Chrono's straight tail

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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Katlin » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:12 pm

eyembrad wrote:So an "acceptable" or "breed standard" excited tail might be equivalent to Wylie's "swimming tail" or Chrono's straight tail
That's the ideal tail, yes.
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Re: Curly Tails?

Post by Hawthorne » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:43 pm

Katlin wrote:Here are pictures of Wylie's tail types:
Swimming tail (high and straight...why he only does this when he swims, I have no idea)
That's his sail. Maybe Wylie thinks he's a boat. :lol:

All three of mine have sickle shaped tails while moving. While at rest they are straight but if they are excited they carry them either straight up or what I have heard called "scorpion tail." (not touching their backs but still curved a bit). Wolves carry their tails straight out from the body or at a 45 degree angle while traveling: so if you were to continue down the line of the back the tail would be an extension from the spine or a 45 degree angle from the back (down, not up). This is actually a way to tell the difference between a dog and a wolf or coyote in the wild.
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