Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdog.

Everything about Tamaskan Dogs that does not fit within the other topics in this section.
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Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdog.

Post by Tankerman » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:38 pm

Hi, I have a question on whether it's easy to tell the difference between a Tamaskan vs a Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdog, appearance-wise. What are the distinguishing traits between them in terms of size, colour and general shape?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that while actual wolves were used to create both the Saarloos and Czechoslvakian wolfdogs, there is no wolf content for the Tamaskan in any shape or form (as in using real wolves to create the breed)? I ask this since while I greatly admire wolves (and I have a great interest in wolfish-looking dogs...so long as they have no wolf content), actually keeping a wolf (or a hybrid wolfdog) is another story. I don't think wolves make suitable pets (at least for 99% of the pet owners out there), so I will steer clear of any wolves or wolfdogs.

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Re: Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdo

Post by Nimwey » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:59 pm

With practice, I think it's quite easy to tell them apart. :)
But then, some low content wolfdogs or wolf-lookalikes can look a lot like some Tamaskans. But to tell a Saarloos, CsV and Tamaskan from each other, I think is rather easy.

Saarloos
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They are often rather GSD-like in shape. Some even look like "GSD in wolf's clothing", though some may disagree with me on this.

Czechoslovakian Wolfdog
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They often, but not always, have a very typical "sharp" face, with those pointy ears, and almost foxlike faces.

Tamaskan
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Not as homogenous because they haven't been bred for many generations and there's still outcrossing, but they rarely look like a Saarloos or CsV. Also, they have a lot of Husky influences, while the previous two are only German Shepherd and Wolf (though different types of wolf and slightly different content).

Anyone who knows more about this than me, please correct me if I get things wrong, or if I made a mistake with any of the Tamaskan images. I got them from the Wikimedia category of Tamaskans.

The Tamaskan does have very little wolf content in some lines, through indirect crossing when the founders lied about what was in their dogs. Jodie for example, one of the foundation females (as well as her brother), is probably a third (or fourth?) generation wolfdog. Jackal, a well-used stud, seemed to have been sired by a CsV. One litter (Münsterland litter of 2009?) was sired by a Saarloos. So there is some, but not really enough to call them "wolfdogs" I think.
Even Alaskan Malamutes, German Shepherds and Karelian Bear Dogs might have had wolf crossed in during the last century, but that wolf content is so scattered and limited that you wouldn't call them wolfdogs.

Of course, the Tamaskan has only existed for a few years, but any wolf content was indirect. The Saarloos and CsV are already low-content, around 20-35%, unless I've been misinformed.
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Re: Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdo

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:14 pm

For the beginner, it is hard to tell the 3 apart.

Saarloos Wolfhond
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Czechoslovakian Vlcak
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Tamaskan Dog (my two, sorry photo is from Instagram)
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The way I see it, Saarloos have a more slender look to them, while the Vlcaks look more broader, look a bit more shephardy and I think have slightly longer coats.

The Tamaskans have is some lines both Saarloos Wolfhonds and Czechoslovakian Vlcaks, and further in the lines because of 2 of the founders lies, some actual wolfdog content. In my two, the one on the right has more of the Czechoslovakian influence from in his lines, the one one the left more of the Saarloos because her sire was half Saarloos (on her dam's side, there is also some Czechoslovakian further in the lines).

On http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/breed-info/foundation-dogs/ you can read about the dogs that were used as foundation dogs to help start the breed, click on each photo and it will tell what each dog originally was.
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Re: Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdo

Post by arianwenarie » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:04 pm

I can't answer the question of how to tell the difference between Tamaskan, Saarloos WD and Czech WD...maybe someone else who owns all three breeds could. lol.

As for wolf content, there is definitely wolf content in the breed - in certain lines. Two of the breed founders used wolfdogs and lied about it - they're often referred to as the Blus (Blufawn and Blustag). They are no longer with the TDR and they do run their own TDR, which comprises of just themselves...at the moment, I believe Blustag is their only breeder.

Foundation dogs are listed on the TDR website here: http://www.tamaskan-dog.org/breed-info/foundation-dogs/

Wolf content comes from the following dogs (someone correct me if any of this info is wrong :) ):

Oxbow Leva-Neve (Oskari) - from Polar Speed Kennels
Rumors are that he is the same as Polar Speed Oskari that appears in Tamaskan pedigrees. Czechoslovakian Wolfdog from Polar Speed Kennels. Blustag purchased several of his offspring to use as foundation dogs. Those dogs include the following: Two Socks @ Moonstone (Zev) (Oskari's granddaughter?), Kwakiuth @ Alba (Magnus) (Oskari's grandson?), Jackal @ Blustag, Dingo @ Blustag, Susi @ Blustag (Oskari's granddaughter)

Two Socks @ Moonstone (Zev)
She was used for one registered litter, of which 3 offspring went to breeding homes: Moonstone Make Me Pure @ Alba (Odin), Moonstone Lovelight (Tasha) and Moonstone Eternity (Tundra). Tasha and Tundra, unfortunately, ended up in a puppy mill known as Right Puppy Kennel through no fault of their breeder.

Kwakiuth @ Alba (Magnus)
He appears in the pedigrees of the breeding dogs from the following kennels: Alba, Double J (J&J), Tarheel, Hawthorne, Starlight, Conchur and Blufawn.

Jackal @ Blustag
Czechoslovakian Wolfdog x Siberian Husky - unfortunately, he was overused by Blustag; he is a monorchid carrier/producer with dubious hip scores (likely failing).

Dingo @ Blustag
Half brother to Jackal @ Blustag. His is the result of a father/daughter breeding done at Polar Speed Kennels. He is a monorchid carrier/producer. The following kennels have Dingo in their lines: Blustag, White Elk, Conchur, Sylvaen and Faelan.

Susi @ Blustag
She is a suspected monorchid carrier/producer. The following kennels have Susi in their lines: Conchur and Sylvaen.

Boogie a/k/a Ivan
Mid to High content wolfdog - he supposedly sired Whitefang (Valko) and Jodie (Henki); both Whitefang and Jodie were used as foundation dogs.

Whitefang (Valko)
Whitefang is the sire of 2 litters, of which offspring were used in the Tamaskan lines by Blustag. He produced Heidi @ Blustag (Whitefang x Sara) and Blustag's "Little" litter (Whitefang x Paloose) of which two offspring was used for breeding: Skye and Summer.

Heidi @ Blustag
I don't remember how many litters Heidi produced, but her offspring went breeding homes. The kennels that have Heidi in their breeding stock's lines are: Saxon, Sylvaen and White Elk.

Skye - Blustag Little Bear
I don't think Skye sired more than 5 litters, but his offspring went to breeding homes as well. The kennels that have Skye in their breeding stock's lines are: Blustag, Moondance, Hawthorne and Nahani.

Summer - Blustag Little Sunshine
I believe Summer only produced 2 litters, but her offspring went to breeding homes as well. The kennels that have Summer in their breeding stock's lines are: Blustag, Muensterland, Wolfsbane, Weylyn, Tarheel and HiTenshi.

Jodie (Henki)
Jodie produced only 2 litters. For her second litter, there were two sires used: Jackal and Dingo. The following kennels have Jodie in their lines: Blustag, Wolfsbane and Asgard.

Djoser van Rijneckerhof (Bobbi) - Saarloos
He was added as a foundation dog in 2009 and sired one litter with Summer (Blustag Little Sunshine). On pedigrees made by the Blus, he appears as "Blustag Apache Horse", who was made up to cover the fact that a Saarloos was used. The kennels that have Bobbi in their breeding stock's lines are: Blustag, Muensterland, Wolfsbane, Weylyn, Tarheel and HiTenshi.

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Re: Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdo

Post by Tankerman » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:18 am

I see, so Tamaskans, in general, is more husky-like in appearance while Saarloos and CSV is more GSD in appearance. But since Tamaskan is still a very new breed, appearance can still vary alot.

And the Tamaskans have wolf content due to the dishonesty of two of the breed founders, but their content is quite low and do not qualify Tamaskans to be termed "wolfdog". I just have to be careful on this because I've heard too many horror stories about people keeping wolves and wolfdogs without realizing what they are getting into. I want to absolutely sure if I were to get a Tamaskan, I'm not getting a "wolfdog".

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Re: Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdo

Post by arianwenarie » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:58 am

Tankerman wrote:I see, so Tamaskans, in general, is more husky-like in appearance while Saarloos and CSV is more GSD in appearance. But since Tamaskan is still a very new breed, appearance can still vary alot.

And the Tamaskans have wolf content due to the dishonesty of two of the breed founders, but their content is quite low and do not qualify Tamaskans to be termed "wolfdog". I just have to be careful on this because I've heard too many horror stories about people keeping wolves and wolfdogs without realizing what they are getting into. I want to absolutely sure if I were to get a Tamaskan, I'm not getting a "wolfdog".
I have mainly communicated with the US breeders since I live in the US, but if you have any questions about bloodlines, then I would suggest you contact Debbie (Sylvaen), Rahne (Wolfsbane), John (Tarheel) or Tracy (Hawthorne). Please do note that the Tamaskan is still a breed in progress, so the looks will vary a lot, but hopefully, not very much. ;) I believe the TDR is pushing the breed towards health, temperament and then appearance.

With the way I put it in my previous post, it does sound like there is wolf in every line of the Tamaskan...but it all depends on whether you see Czechoslovakian wolfdogs as wolfdogs. Saarloos and Czech wolfdogs are recognized by the FCI and are considered dog breeds. The best advice I can give is get to know as many breeders as you can; build a relationship with them...if, for any reason, you don't feel comfortable with any particular breeder, then walk away.

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Re: Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdo

Post by aerowrx » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:40 pm

Off topic but why are Blufawn and Blustag no longer part of the TDR and what are the repercussion of this to the breed as a whole?

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Re: Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdo

Post by HiTenshi16 » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:56 pm

aerowrx wrote:Off topic but why are Blufawn and Blustag no longer part of the TDR and what are the repercussion of this to the breed as a whole?
They were found to be falsifying pedigrees (even made up a fake dam to cover up a back to back mating), lied about some of the health and backgrounds, and were having way too many 'accidents'. They now claim that the TDR was stolen from them (even though when confronted with all this, they were the ones that left) and are claiming that they are the TDR, as well as just breeding what dogs they have combined.
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Re: Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdo

Post by Tiantai » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:13 am

In my opinion, some of the Tamaskan dogs appearance-wise seem to look MOSTLY like husky-mixes such as Leia, Sequoia, and basically all those dogs that were born out from Nanna who was a pure Siberian Husky. Of course, most of my opinion is based on photos of the many Tamaskans I have seen on here as well as on facebook.

There are a LOT of husky-mixes in the background of the breed generally speaking. While there are also Saarloos and Czechoslovakian Vlcak in some lines, obviously not all Tamaskans resemble those breeds since each outcross has resulted with a mixture of other breeds diluting the genepool including those dogs that have true wolfdogs in them in them. Some lines also have White German Shepherds as a result of the two recent Marxdorfer outcrosses in Germany. And interesting note I would like to mention is that although the German Shepherds were used in the breed's background, they had been diluted by all the other mutts in the breed since the Utonagan era as I've been told by another Tamaskan owner. However, due to the addition of Vlcaks and Saarloos from a few years ago and the Marxdorfer from a couple of months ago, I guess it's safe to say that the GSD genes were indirectly brought back into some of the current generations. Although GSD appearances are barely visible to me in most of the dogs in the photos I've seen but when I look at photos of Jaeger's mask from some angles I do notice a tiny bit of GSD-like facial expressions. Technically he is part Saarloos (sired by the handsome Bobbi - sorry Miran, couldn't help it. I LOVE Bobbi ♥) so it doesn't really surprise me since that breed along with the Vlcaks have a history of extensive backcrossing with the GSD prior to gaining recognitions.

Since the breed is still new and has yet to gain recognition, they are still open to outcrosses so depending on where you might get your dog from in the future there will always be some minor differences in appearances between different lines. I plan to get mine from Tarheel in the future after my graduation.
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Re: Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdo

Post by Czertice » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:58 am

Here are my photos of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs: http://czertice.deviantart.com/gallery/26651405
If you get to know the breeds a little, you can quite safely recognize the differences. Saarlooses also have a color variety not present in Vlcaks - "forest brown". Husky mask is also different from saarlooses and csws. As for the length of coat - speaking for CSWs - it varies, dog from dog, also changes with the season and sometimes also with age. Sometimes you even get long haired CSWs - the long haired gene from GSDs popping up I've been told.
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Re: Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdo

Post by balto13 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:41 am

Tiantai wrote:In my opinion, some of the Tamaskan dogs appearance-wise seem to look MOSTLY like husky-mixes such as Leia, Sequoia, and basically all those dogs that were born out from Nanna who was a pure Siberian Husky. Of course, most of my opinion is based on photos of the many Tamaskans I have seen on here as well as on facebook.
When I met Sequoia she did not look or remind me of a husky, her facebook pictures they do not do her justice!

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Re: Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdo

Post by weylyn » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:57 pm

balto13 wrote:
Tiantai wrote:In my opinion, some of the Tamaskan dogs appearance-wise seem to look MOSTLY like husky-mixes such as Leia, Sequoia, and basically all those dogs that were born out from Nanna who was a pure Siberian Husky. Of course, most of my opinion is based on photos of the many Tamaskans I have seen on here as well as on facebook.
When I met Sequoia she did not look or remind me of a husky, her facebook pictures they do not do her justice!
It depends on of what line of husky's you have in mind. Sequoia does look a lot like my Sierra and we have husky lines here that she just would blend in with.....Most husky people think she is one.....

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Re: Tamaskan vs. Saarloos wolfdog and Czechoslovakian wolfdo

Post by balto13 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:35 pm

weylyn wrote:
balto13 wrote:
Tiantai wrote:In my opinion, some of the Tamaskan dogs appearance-wise seem to look MOSTLY like husky-mixes such as Leia, Sequoia, and basically all those dogs that were born out from Nanna who was a pure Siberian Husky. Of course, most of my opinion is based on photos of the many Tamaskans I have seen on here as well as on facebook.
When I met Sequoia she did not look or remind me of a husky, her facebook pictures they do not do her justice!
It depends on of what line of husky's you have in mind. Sequoia does look a lot like my Sierra and we have husky lines here that she just would blend in with.....Most husky people think she is one.....

true, but huskies have been around longer than tams so it wouldn't surprise me that for every tam there would be a line of husky that looks very similiar ;) she does not look like a "typical" (Sibe or Alaskan) husky, or at least what I have seen as "typical" Sibe and Alaskan huskies. If so she is by far the prettiest husky dog I have ever seen! (pictures on facebook still don't do her justice :p )

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